Best subwoofer for $600?

Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Lets be clear - I'm not here to sell anyone on anything, I've run through my lengthy journey and I'm thrilled with what I have. All I can do is offer what I have owned and compared in length over the years... Certainly not trying to dump on the outlaw, just pointing out what would concern me if I was on the hunt, and I'm glad to hear that it lives up to what people are saying about it...

I have always wondered how the ULS sounded like with the XBL, as I had 3 Mal-x's with the same tech and build. They were good on the SQ - but not up to the task of accuracy of something like the LMS. When I heard the LMS for the first time at my GTG, I knew I found the driver I'd been looking for. Its truly amazing, not much different at low or medium db levels, but when pushed hard - the true nature of this beast revealed it god-like abilities... :D

Shady - you have provided the OP with valuable info that should easily help make decisions in which direction to go... in all honesty these are budget subs - so I'd imagine they are very close in performance....
 
5

55katest55

Audioholic
Lets be clear - I'm not here to sell anyone on anything, I've run through my lengthy journey and I'm thrilled with what I have. All I can do is offer what I have owned and compared in length over the years... Certainly not trying to dump on the outlaw, just pointing out what would concern me if I was on the hunt, and I'm glad to hear that it lives up to what people are saying about it...

I have always wondered how the ULS sounded like with the XBL, as I had 3 Mal-x's with the same tech and build. They were good on the SQ - but not up to the task of accuracy of something like the LMS. When I heard the LMS for the first time at my GTG, I knew I found the driver I'd been looking for. Its truly amazing, not much different at low or medium db levels, but when pushed hard - the true nature of this beast revealed it god-like abilities... :D

Shady - you have provided the OP with valuable info that should easily help make decisions in which direction to go... in all honesty these are budget subs - so I'd imagine they are very close in performance....
I definitely dont think anyone thinks that; hell, you dont even have subs most regular people know about lol. :D I do appreciate your input, but I just like to ask questions to get every base covered (which may seem like im being a wise ***, but I'm just trying to be thorough and in the process of learning about this all).

I do appreciate your guys' exchanges, it helps tremendously in learning about this stuff. Its also nice to hear differing opinions from knowledgeable people because a lot of it is opinion based, and over the years I've learned that when people who know what they're talking about share their opinions, its a good idea to listen. :)

Anyway, to go off topic a bit, is there any way you can post some more pics of your subs (especially the AE), and if you feel comfortable with it, how much they cost?

Thanks all.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I just like to make statements so people are not suggesting I'm biased....

Anyway, to go off topic a bit, is there any way you can post some more pics of your subs (especially the AE), and if you feel comfortable with it, how much they cost?

Thanks all.
Not much more to show other then the pics I posted in my threads in my sig...
errrr Its a box, with 2 holes in it, and a pair of LMS's in each, 2 x 80lbs for LMS's and @ 130lbs for the box itself... Large radius corners so they look nice.... Designed as Dual opposed, there is no vibration with the drivers cancelling out each others movement - I had full martini glass at one point and time which didn't spill a drop during full output, that was pretty cool....

My neighbors can hear my system down the road, funny my buddy gets questions from his visitors, what is that noise - ahhh its just patrick, don't worry about it... :D LOL

I think all in I got about $12K in everything involved in the subs - drivers, amps, eq, boxes...


Jesus...that RE XXX driver looks insane :O
I'll be honest - that driver is incredible !!! It was extremely good in SQ and the excursion from it was freaking impressive....

Ricci brought both the LMS and the XXX for that GTG and I built a box for the XXX which I gave to him for his journey and efforts... I'm pretty sure he modded that box to employ dual 21" B&C drivers for fun...
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'd love to get some TC sounds drivers, but they are so expensive, and I am happy with what I have now. If money were not a consideration I would just have that Funkywaves guy cook me up a bunch of subs using that LMS 5400 18" driver with his new DSP amps, or maybe I would go with a bunch of Submersives.
 
5

55katest55

Audioholic
Question...this Outlaw has a LFE line in, single RCA jack. A lot of other subs (specifically the A2-300 i was going to get) had 2 RCA jacks, a left and right. Most people use a Y-adapter and connect both. Is there a difference? Why wouldnt all subs just have a Line in that's a single jack? Thanks.

Btw, shadyJ or phillip, any chance you can measure how far apart at their furthest point the feet of the Outlaw are? I built a riser/isolation stand for the A2-300, but since i cancelled I'm wondering if it'll work with this outlaw. Thanks!
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I'd love to get some TC sounds drivers, but they are so expensive, and I am happy with what I have now. If money were not a consideration I would just have that Funkywaves guy cook me up a bunch of subs using that LMS 5400 18" driver with his new DSP amps, or maybe I would go with a bunch of Submersives.

Agreed.... its a limitless perspective with what I was looking at...

In all honesty - the each XLERATOR was about $4K, but if you look at it from a commercial comparison - the Paradigm Sub 2 has grown to be incredibly expensive and each of my subs will put out roughly 3-4 times the amount of output of 1 of those.... My huge room required serious excursion, but its my own fault because I wanted to go sealed and PR would have been far cheaper...
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Question...this Outlaw has a LFE line in, single RCA jack. A lot of other subs (specifically the A2-300 i was going to get) had 2 RCA jacks, a left and right. Most people use a Y-adapter and connect both. Is there a difference? Why wouldnt all subs just have a Line in that's a single jack? Thanks.

Btw, shadyJ or phillip, any chance you can measure how far apart at their furthest point the feet of the Outlaw are? I built a riser/isolation stand for the A2-300, but since i cancelled I'm wondering if it'll work with this outlaw. Thanks!
Looks to be about 13.25" between the left/right feet and 20" from front to back. Those will be off slightly since I didn't flip the sub over and do exact measurements :)
 
5

55katest55

Audioholic
Looks to be about 13.25" between the left/right feet and 20" from front to back. Those will be off slightly since I didn't flip the sub over and do exact measurements :)
omg that would be absolutely perfect! It's 18"x22" so that'd fit very nicely. Those feet must be in pretty far. Thanks man.

Now the only thing I have to worry about is condition...i'm really hoping it looks nice. I hear most are just returns so that should be fine. The lady said the problems are very very minor.
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
They are expensive. Unfortunately they can get damaged if you push them much past 4.5" of excursion.:rolleyes:;)
 
5

55katest55

Audioholic
Got my new, first, "actual" subwoofer. What a difference! :eek:
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
@ 55katest55

Giggidy! Congrats! Which sub did you end up with?

Last time we talked, you had ordered the Outlaw LFM-1 EX, but you were still considering switching to the Rythmik FV12, right? Either way, you'd be getting a really good sub!

I'm sure you'll fill us in once you've enjoyed your new "toy" for a while :D
 
5

55katest55

Audioholic
Ended up with the LFM-1 EX! As of right now, all i can say is...holy crap, how much have i missed all these years?! I'm literally hearing things ive never heard before! :eek:

Its sooooooooooooooooo different. I feel like i'm in the movie now, and everything just seems to go together so much better.

I now see why people try to isolate the hell out of their subs. Even on a GRAMMA, this thing (not even loud) vibrates the house. Such a huge difference...glad I trusted you guys lol. Thanks again!

...i want to get another sub now. And then another more expensive one later. :( Whats happened to me?!
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Well congrats !!! Now the next step is to get it properly integrated into your room and system, which means getting the right placement and then EQ the response to as flat as you can get it for uniform response from top to bottom, for even better sound and performance.
 
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55katest55

Audioholic
Thanks guys! I have a horrible feeling im making my brains into much with all this bass haha. Placement will be a PITA since this thing is so large and heavy, and since theres a few couches in here. I plan on giving it a go though at some point.

Warp, I really, really wanna EQ it, but I cant since i have no external EQ and my receiver only has Audyssey2EQ (it's the basic version, it only sets subwoofer distance and db). I guess my next purchase will be a nice receiver (and these damn receivers are expensive). :(

lol BoredSysAdmin. :D I guess it's infectious. I certainly know why people have like 4+ subs when before I thought it was crazy. Get into your own house! Its nice not having that feeling that youre bothering the neighbors, thats for damn sure.

Last night as we were watching The Hulk (2008), my little nephew says, "it feels like they're shooting at US, not the Hulk!" ;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Ha-Ha!

Well ya done good so far, 55! Man, if I could go back in time and start with a sub similar in price and performance to the LFM-1 EX, I could've saved myself A LOT of money :p

I do remember when I got my HSU VTF-3 MK2, which is very similar in design and performance to your new Outlaw. I had a similar "oh my god this is so awesome!" response, so I know exactly where you're coming from :D

Enjoy the heck out of it! That's the best advice I have to offer at this point :)

Don't get too, too hung up on "where to go next". Just enjoy your new sub for a little while. You've earned it!

But yes, ultimately there are still improvements to be had - although you certainly shouldn't expect them to be the same huge improvement as going from a HTiB sub to a REAL sub like your Outlaw! No, improvements now are far more subtle.

There is, of course, the "crawling for bass" trick. But you mentioned that you have several potential seating positions in your room. The "crawling for bass" technique will only let you find the rough position where the bass is the most smooth and even and flat for one seating position at a time. So even with that technique, you'd have to move the sub several times and try to find a spot where the bass is roughly even and flat and smooth for multiple seating positions. That could be rather difficult!

Instead, if it were me, I'd really only worry about the primary seat and maybe one or two other often-used seats. With a single sub, there's no sense in trying to find a position in your room that works nicely for EVERY seat - it just isn't going to happen. But crawling for bass for two or maybe three seats isn't out of the question.

It's great that you got a GRAMMA isolation riser! I wasn't sure if you had included that in your budget, but I'm super glad that you did! You should try listening to your sub with it sitting directly on the floor and compare it to how it sounds with it on the GRAMMA. Not only in your theater but also in other rooms of the house! I think you'll notice just how much of a difference the GRAMMA really makes if you do that. There's nothing so convincing and hearing it live for yourself!

And there's nothing wrong with your brain :p Once you get a taste of TRUE bass performance, it's only natural to want to see just how far you can really take it! A second LFM-1 EX - properly positioned in concert with the one you already have - could certainly improve the evenness and flatness of your frequency response at multiple seating positions. With EQ alone, so long as you aren't sitting in a bass null, you can achieve pretty flat frequency response for a lone, "sweet spot" seat - perhaps luck out and get similar response at a couple of other positions. But to get even response at multiple seats, you pretty much have to use multiple subs.

So it's perfectly OK to want a second sub! After that, like we talked about, I think the next logical step would be to really go whole hog and go for a pair of stellar subs - but the jump in price is going to be substantial! In all honesty, that's a good thing. You shouldn't think of it as needing to spend A LOT more to get great bass. You should think of it as a situation where you already got great bass for an amazingly affordable price, and to eek out any sort of improvement, you have to spend A LOT more, meaning that you really did spend your money wisely! :)

For EQ, I'm certainly impressed with what Audyssey has achieved with their newest MutlEQ XT32 with Sub EQ HT. If and when you buy a new receiver or pre/pro, I'd certainly aim for one with those included. That said, right now, MultEQ XT32 with Sub EQ HT is only found on the more expensive models. Onkyo's got it in their TX-NR3009 and above, and in their sister Integra models. And Denon's got it in their AVR-4311CI. All are fairly pricey - though not insanely expensive :)

The other options are outboard EQ solutions. Automatic options include SVSound's AS-EQ1 at $770 and Velodyne's SMS-1, which is on sale for $500 right now. And then there's the manual Behringer Feedback Destroyer for around $100.

To be perfectly honest, I'd choose the Velodyne SMS-1. While the BFD is a tweeker's dream and the price certainly can't be beat, you can easily wind up driving yourself crazy with the thing! Furthermore, you really do need a high quality, calibrated mic to use it properly, plus the proper software and knowledge of how to use it. While the SMS-1 is a $400 jump up in price (and more when it's not on sale - regularly $750), you get a decent mic included, plus you can either just have it do the EQ automatically, or you can manually control 8 bands of EQ yourself using the included software. It's a pretty nice solution and enough to dial in almost any sub in any room quite nicely. It's not the be-all, end-all by any means, but it's basically what any beginner or intermediate user should hope for, IMO.

At $500, it's not an impulse buy, but it's still substantially less than a whole new, top-line receiver or pre/pro!

For now though, I think you should just enjoy what you have! Focus mostly on your primary seat and do the "crawling for bass" trick for that seat only. If and when you really start aching for a small change and improvement in your bass, it's basically going to cost you around $500 - either for a second sub, or for the SMS-1 :p

Enjoy! :D
 

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