I'm an idiot and can't decide between RBH SX 61-SE/Rs or Martin Logan EM-ESLs

[Chacranajxy]

I'm redoing my whole audio setup (2.1) for my TV, which is exciting and terrifying at the same time. I'm going to be using the Emotiva UMC-1 for my processor, an Emotiva UPA-2 for the amp, and an SVS sub.

But that won't get me too terribly far without some speakers, as you might have suspected. After a lot of searching, I narrowed my choices down to the RBH SX 61-SE/Rs and the Martin Logan EM-ESLs. Honestly, I really have no idea where to start in comparing them. I'm in a mid-sized room, so I'm kind of worried that the 61-SE/Rs won't pump out enough sound since it's just the single tweeter and woofer. But on the other hand, I'm worried that the Martin Logans have more marketing built into them than high-end tech. I'm also worried that the woofer in the MLs isn't up to the task. And how does the electrostatic panel in that thing compare to ML's top-end models?

So yes, I'm very confused. I guess I'm just looking for the pros and cons of each of these choices.

 

[ski2xblack]

Hola and welcome to the forum.

I must preface this by letting you know I have not heard either of your speaker choices, and that speaker choice is highly subjective anyway. It's only your ears that ultimately matter to your brain. And unfortunately, you won't really know until you audition them in your room.

In addition to considering the basics such as power requirements and spl limits, the choices you have are quite different in regards to room placement. Given your small room, this is an important consideration. The RBHs will require less real estate than the dipole MLs. To perform their best, the ML will need enough room from the back wall to get the desired delay for the sound radiated to the rear. Not enough (i.e. too close) and it smears the image. Can your room accomodate the MLs placed well out from back walls?

In their favor, since you are doing 2.1, the added ambience of the MLs may work very well for you, making your room seem larger than it is, with more ambient sound than the RBH.

I would probably audition the RBH first. I use similar speakers in a smaller, well damped room in a near/mid field type listening arrangement, heavy toe-in, cross-fire type orientation, and the sweet spot spans the whole back half of the room; the ceter image is so solid, folks constantly ask where the center channel speaker is hidden. I use dipoles in a much larger, more lively, reflective room, where they have the room to really work their magic.

So consider the room, as the speaker/room aspect is 90% of the equation.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are comparing a tower speaker:

to a bookshelf?

I would take the MartinLogan EM-ESL in a heartbeat.

In a medium size room, I don't think output is an issue, especially with the SVS sub pulling heavy duty.

 

[Chacranajxy]

Okay, a few more details:

- As far as placement options go, I can place the MLs as much as 2 or 3 feet from the wall, but that's about it.

- One of my hangups is that the MLs are basically their least expensive electrostatic model and I'm worried that it's going to have some major compromises that I'm incurring solely to have a cool-looking speaker. Meanwhile, the SX-61 SE/Rs use the same midrange and tweeter as the apparently incredible T30-LSE.

- Another hangup is pettier - I like the pretension of owning something you can't find at Best Buy (even if it's in the Magnolia center.) That's a lesser point, of course.

- Finally, would a tower speaker really be that much better, considering I'm using a subwoofer? And considering that both are around the same price, it would make sense for the bookshelf to be better than the floorstanding speaker... well, all other things equal, right? I'm just not sure what the inherent advantages would be.

 

[InTheIndustry]

We had been RBH dealers in the past (even helped an AH forum member with a pair of T30LSE that OP mentioned) and have brought in some Martin Logan pieces recently to sample as well as spent quite some time with them at CEDIA.

It's an incredibly unique sounding speaker. It will absolutely require careful positioning, but the payoff is one of the most incredible sounding speakers. Their demo at CEDIA, granted it was their new $10K/pr models, was fabulous and really stood out as, IMO, the best audio demo there. And yes, I listend to the Synthesis & $60K ID dARTS demos - For the record, I much prefered the dARTS system over the JBL, but that's for another thread.

I would do the Martin Logans in a heartbeat over the alternative you listed. Not that the RBH is bad... it's a great company run by pationate people. But the Martin Logan product is, IMO, pretty special sounding. The big thing to pay attention to is PLACEMENT! If you can fiddle with that until it's right... you'll love them.

 

[Rickster71]

Just a thought....you will need an AC outlet near each speaker too.
They do sound best 3ft off the front wall and at least 4ft from the sides.

 

[Chacranajxy]

Three feet from the back I can definitely do. Four feet on each side... not so much. They won't be by a wall, but there are a couple pieces of furniture (not gigantic pieces, though) in the way. AC outlets aren't an issue.

 

[ski2xblack]

Okay, a few more details:

- As far as placement options go, I can place the MLs as much as 2 or 3 feet from the wall, but that's about it.

Ok, so the MLs are still in the running.

- One of my hangups is that the MLs are basically their least expensive electrostatic model and I'm worried that it's going to have some major compromises that I'm incurring solely to have a cool-looking speaker. Meanwhile, the SX-61 SE/Rs use the same midrange and tweeter as the apparently incredible T30-LSE.

- Another hangup is pettier - I like the pretension of owning something you can't find at Best Buy (even if it's in the Magnolia center.) That's a lesser point, of course.

- Finally, would a tower speaker really be that much better, considering I'm using a subwoofer? And considering that both are around the same price, it would make sense for the bookshelf to be better than the floorstanding speaker... well, all other things equal, right? I'm just not sure what the inherent advantages would be.

Your choices are both worthy of consideration, and the gear you have is perfectly capable. Regarding these two speaker choices, it's still kind of apples to oranges comparison. Differences go beyond tower/bookshelf; you're comparing direct radiators to dipoles.

Think of it this way: properly set up, the dipoles can make your room seem considerably larger than it actually is, giving you a middle-of-the-house type perspective on the sound stage, a large and clear, but somewhat distant window into the music. This could be exactly what you like, and work well in a small/med sized room, and compensate for the fact you're only using two channels. Added ambience, properly rendered, is good. You will have less placement flexibility, but it may be worth the compromise.

The direct radiators, on the other hand, may not provide the enhanced sense of space, but you'll be 'on the conductors stand' instead of a few rows back in the audience. Imaging may be pinpoint accurate left to right. You will have relateively greater flexibility regarding room placement, i.e. closer to rear walls, possibly wider spacing left to right, and more toe-in flexibility. You'll likely have to focus more on room acoustics (placement, room treatments, decor) to get the same sonic depth of field as the dipoles, but it can be achieved.

Any chance of in-home auditions of your choices? It's the only way to know which speaker works best for you. And I'd bet either of your choices will yield very satisfying results, if implemented properly.

I'm not helping you narrow this down, am I? What can I say, you've got a rich man's dilemma.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Just a thought....you will need an AC outlet near each speaker too.
They do sound best 3ft off the front wall and at least 4ft from the sides.

That's only on the models that use the onboard sub amp. The ESL that I think the OP is referring to is non-active.

Three feet from the back I can definitely do. Four feet on each side... not so much. They won't be by a wall, but there are a couple pieces of furniture (not gigantic pieces, though) in the way. AC outlets aren't an issue.

Doesn't sound like a problem.

 

[Chacranajxy]

Heh, you guys are really giving me a lot to think about here. This is good.

I think my biggest concerns with the Martin Logan are a fear of snake oil, and I'm also a little worried about that low-frequency driver... my concern is that it's going to be kinda crappy compared to the panel, and it's not like my sub can take over the whole range that that thing covers.

And with the RBH, my perception is that "well, this is a smaller version of the T30-LSE, so in a smaller or medium-sized room and coupled with a sub, it'll be the best speaker ever." Which I know is a little silly to expect, but yeah.

So yeah, the questions I have are all over the board, and I know that this is an apples to oranges comparison, really.

 

[Pyrrho]

If you are worried about the woofer in the Martin Logan speakers, why don't you consider a different brand of speaker that is a similar idea (although a quite different implementation of it)*? I personally prefer the sound of Magnepan speakers over the Martin Logan speakers I have heard:

http://www.magnepan.com/

At a little less than the retail price of the Martin Logans you are considering:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16

If you can find a Magnepan dealer in your area, I highly recommend that you go and listen to them for yourself.

_______________

*The Martin Logans use electrostatic drivers and Magnepan uses planar, ribbon, and quasi-ribbon drivers.

 

[GranteedEV]

Three feet from the back I can definitely do. Four feet on each side... not so much. They won't be by a wall, but there are a couple pieces of furniture (not gigantic pieces, though) in the way. AC outlets aren't an issue.

I actually don't think you need to worry about distance from side walls. Dipoles don't radiate very much sound in those directions, or vertically either, unlike most speakers.

But I would not do anything less than 5ft from the back wall.

And with the RBH, my perception is that "well, this is a smaller version of the T30-LSE, so in a smaller or medium-sized room and coupled with a sub, it'll be the best speaker ever." Which I know is a little silly to expect, but yeah.

Everyone has their preferences on what "the best speaker ever" will be and presumably, we're all WRONG!!. I don't doubt that the RBH SX-61-SE/Rs sound pretty nice in your smaller room. However it's a vastly different speaker from the T30LSE, which has a very unique lobing pattern that creates its own sound effect.

If I may add a suggestion, how about the Philharmonic Audio Philharmonic 2:

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic2.html

It uses one of the superior tweeters in the world (by some considered the best), has an stuffed open transmission line dipole midrange for a similar, but still different and less placement sensitive soundstage to the martin logans, and has a mass loaded transmission line SB acoustics 8" woofer to handle lower midrange and upper bass cleanly with high output right down to your subwoofer crossover. All put together by a pretty darn good crossover designer. Throw in two or three quality subs, to handle content below 60-80hz for a true full range experience. Perhaps you can audition a Dennis Murphy design (IE DIY or many Salk speakers) near your location...??? Where are you located?

On a side note, why not get an XPA-2 and USP-1 rather than a UMC-1 and UPA-2? I think if you're going to get a separate amp, you may as well go for the gusto and never have to consider upgrading again. Another amp you should strongly consider is the Crown XLS1000 Drivecore.

 

[Chacranajxy]

If you are worried about the woofer in the Martin Logan speakers, why don't you consider a different brand of speaker that is a similar idea (although a quite different implementation of it)*? I personally prefer the sound of Magnepan speakers over the Martin Logan speakers I have heard:

Interesting.

Anyone else have a perspective on Magneplanars? Particularly if I'm only going to have 185w of amp piped to each speaker? Also somewhat concerned that my room placement abilities are less than ideal. This is hardly going into a dedicated music room, and I've heard that these speakers absolutely require proper room placement... moreso than other electrostats, even.

As far as my concerns about the woofer in the MLs... I have no reason to think it's not good. I just tend to overanalyze everything.

 

[Pyrrho]

Interesting.

Anyone else have a perspective on Magneplanars? Particularly if I'm only going to have 185w of amp piped to each speaker? Also somewhat concerned that my room placement abilities are less than ideal. This is hardly going into a dedicated music room, and I've heard that these speakers absolutely require proper room placement... moreso than other electrostats, even.

As far as my concerns about the woofer in the MLs... I have no reason to think it's not good. I just tend to overanalyze everything.

It is enough power for sane volume levels with those speakers in an ordinary room. You can take your power amp with you when you audition the speakers, if you wish. You can instead ask the dealer to hook up a comparably powered amplifier for a demonstration.

If, however, you are wanting to reproduce the loudest rock concert at authentic deafening (literally) levels, then you ought to look for different speakers (or, really, change your mind, so that you don't end your days with a hearing aid).


As for placement, although ribbon/planar speakers can be picky, even in less than ideal placements, one can find them quite enjoyable. I personally don't think the Magnepan speakers I have played with are as picky as some other ribbon/planar speakers I have used (such as my Apogee Stage speakers). You can find such information by playing with the speakers' positioning at the dealership, and decide for yourself what one can reasonably do with them. You might also be able to take a demo pair home with you, depending on the dealer's policies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Martin Logan...It's an incredibly unique sounding speaker. It will absolutely require careful positioning, but the payoff is one of the most incredible sounding speakers...I would do the Martin Logans in a heartbeat over the alternative you listed. Not that the RBH is bad... it's a great company run by pationate people. But the Martin Logan product is, IMO, pretty special sounding. The big thing to pay attention to is PLACEMENT! If you can fiddle with that until it's right... you'll love them.

I have a friend who is a sales director. One day he took me to a place in Dallas, TX and showed me the giant TV that Tony Romo and his then-girl friend Jessica Simpson just bought.

Anyway, while I was there I auditioned all the speakers they had including Krell Resolution One towers and DALI Euphonia MS5 towers. Then they showed me the Martin Logan Vantage speakers.

And I thought ML Vantage were the best sounding speakers at the dealer as well. Huge soundstage. Crystal clear. Very impressive. They actually surprised me a great deal.

I've also auditioned the RBH T2/R and T3/R at a dealer's house (not store). I thought they sounded very impressive as well.

I can not say the RBH sounded better than the Vantage in terms of midrange and HF quality.

 

[Alex2507]

And I thought ML Vantage were the best sounding speakers at the dealer as well. Huge soundstage. Crystal clear. Very impressive. They actually surprised me a great deal.

I've heard those and agree with you 110%.
Only drawback is the narrow sweet spot but for me that wouldn't be a concern.
That's right where I sit.

 

[GranteedEV]

I've heard those and agree with you 110%.
Only drawback is the narrow sweet spot but for me that wouldn't be a concern.
That's right where I sit.

That's why dynamic dipoles are better, like the Linkwitz Orion.

Similar soundstage, superior sweet spot.

Oh yeah, the price got hiked up 50%. Forgot... my bad

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's why dynamic dipoles are better, like the Linkwitz Orion.

Similar soundstage, superior sweet spot.

Oh yeah, the price got hiked up 50%. Forgot... my bad

Yeah, I have $15,000 Linkwitz Orion speakers that I paid $9K for!!!

And who says speakers are not a good INVESTMENT?

 

[GranteedEV]

Yeah, I have $15,000 Linkwitz Orion speakers that I paid $9K for!!!

Liar!

Your woofers don't go up and down, they go back and forth

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Liar!

Your woofers don't go up and down, they go back and forth

Shhhhhh!!!!!

Most people don't know that!