SVS PB13-Ultra + ASR Emitter 2 = Bad quality?

[AlonPerel]

Hi guys,

As a present for dad, I bought him the "PB13-Ultra" subwoofer by SVS, since I kept hearing how good they are. He already had ASR EMITTER 2 amplifier, and some B&W speakers - which works great. Really high quality stuff.

However, the ASR EMITTER 2 has no "subwoofer output". So we took from the "tape 2 out"the L/R and connected to the Subwooder's L/R in's.

It works - BUT, the quality is soooo bad... I don't get it... It's like the bass is dirty, like - the sound from the speakers is clean and good, but the subwoofer's sound is... Ugh...

Now, I am sure it's all due to my lack of knowledge or something, but I am really worried. They do have 45 days back policy, so I am still safe for a week, but dunno - it cost 2k euro - the sub. And it was a present for his 50's birthday...

Some help would be reallllllly appritiated.

 

[Warpdrv]

Is this the unit your talking about ??

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/1006asr

The one with 3 power chords...?

What are you running for speakers...? What is the source that your running into the ASR integrated ?

Perhaps the signal coming from those tape outs is bad...

 

[AlonPerel]

YEs, that looks almost exactly if not exactly like the amplifier. The difference is - there aren't 3 power cords. There's 1 which goes to another part, and from that part there's power. So the amplifier is actually 2 boxy-thingies.

For speakers I run just regular bi-wired cables.

Into the amplifier I run either from a sony cd-player, or just from computer.

Thing is - no matter what the input, the B&W speakers perform up to the task. it's the subwoofer which is blah.

also, is it normal that the subwoofer doesn't output only "bass"but also like the song itself? like, in a reduced quality and all, but if I turn off speakers, I could still hear the song from the subwoofer.

*sighs*

Anyways...

 

[GranteedEV]

The three issues I suspect are

1) Lack of high pass for the vented B&W mains. You're basically sending the same signal to the speakers and the sub, which is leading to too much bass energy into the room.

2) You didn't place the subwoofer in a good spot in the room. Bass is extremely placement dependant if you're only running one sub. Try the subwoofer crawl.

3) You didn't optimize the phase, gain, and low pass filter on the crossover. You need to play around with these things, preferably with a way to measure. Turn the gain dial all the way up, and then run a 60hz to 120hz type of test tone through the setup. I have no clue if the tape out has any effect on the delay, but that's also a problem. Start by turning the phase dial until you get the MOST perceived bass near 80hz from the combination of the mains and the subwoofer. This will mean that the sub and mains are no longer canceling each other out and creating wierd bass. The next step will be to drop the "crossover or lowpass filter" dial to around around 100hz or 80hz to prevent the subwoofer from reproducing higher frequencies with any real intensitiy. A bit will still leak through, because crossovers are not brick wall filters. The next step will be to drop the gain dial until the bass sounds like it's no longer "too loud".


Honestly, some measurement gear or a modern receiver would really have helped. You really need a modern processor or receiver to have a good setup with subs, and you really want more than one sub..

On an unrelated note, bi wiring is a joke

 

[AlonPerel]

Wow... that sounds... Really complex... All I want is a clean sounding BOOM BOOM BOOM to be felt on my skin and in my heart Kinda like when you come into a club, and you can feel the bass, but you can also hear good "treble" *sighs*

The outs do pass the same signal - to the speakers and to the subwoofer though. AFAIK. But I figured the sub would be like "ok this range is not for me, I am not playing it" or some voodoo like that...

The whole "just buy latest model"strategy should've worked better >.<

 

[Warpdrv]

The SVS Sub should have a low pass filter built in - which is adjustable so you can cut out the higher freq's above what the sub can play - but the problem is which G-EV points out is that your doubling up on the material that the speakers are playing and the subwoofer is playing as well, which will cause problems.

What modern day receivers or preamps do these days is allow the signal to come in via cd player or computer and then route (crossover) the proper signal in the direction it needs to go - bass to the sub and everything above that to the speakers.


There are products out there that will allow you to implement a xover into the mix to get the 2 products to play nice together.. It will require more setup though with the gear you have now.... there are other products out there that have this xover built in - which will be an integrated amp with subwoofer out, which means you ditch the ASR, though I'd venture to guess that the SQ coming from that ASR is going to be much better.


So yes implementing a sub into a 2 channel rig can be a pain in the butt....

 

[jonnythan]

Wow... that sounds... Really complex... All I want is a clean sounding BOOM BOOM BOOM to be felt on my skin and in my heart Kinda like when you come into a club, and you can feel the bass, but you can also hear good "treble" *sighs*

The outs do pass the same signal - to the speakers and to the subwoofer though. AFAIK. But I figured the sub would be like "ok this range is not for me, I am not playing it" or some voodoo like that...

The whole "just buy latest model"strategy should've worked better >.<

Getting a bunch of expensive sound equipment to sound good together is indeed difficult and complex. Bass, especially, can be very challenging to get right, as the room shape and walls and sub placement affect the response so much.

You might want to think about getting a receiver with Audyssey MultiEQ built in and using that. It will include an auto-calibration routine that corrects your room levels and smooths out your frequency response. It'll also do proper bass management, implementing an internal crossover to send just bass signals to the sub and everything else to your mains.

 

[AlonPerel]

There are products out there that will allow you to implement a xover into the mix to get the 2 products to play nice together.. It will require more setup though with the gear you have now....

+

You might want to think about getting a receiver with Audyssey MultiEQ built in and using that. It will include an auto-calibration routine that corrects your room levels and smooths out your frequency response. It'll also do proper bass management, implementing an internal crossover to send just bass signals to the sub and everything else to your mains.

=

Suggestions please? I'd appriciate if you can throw some names into the air which do this sort of thing well.

Thanks

 

[BillCinLR]

Onkyo, Denon and Marantz receivers have Audyssey equalization built in to them.


Bill C

 

[AlonPerel]

What does "Reciever" mean? Because if it means "radio"...

 

[Warpdrv]

Are you looking to hook up a 2 channel rig only here or something for movies or home theater also..?


Which speakers exactly ?

Considering the original preamp - what would be your budget for a replacement more modern ? I have a feeling that you might want something extremely simple and barebones - a higher end 2 channel integrated perhaps ?


A receiver is a unit that will accept many different versions of input and process the information - run it through the on board amp and send it to the speakers.... Most receivers will have a "RADIO" though it will be called a tuner that will allow you to listen to AM or FM.

 

[AlonPerel]

wait wait... what? I though there was a way to retain my ASR EMITTER amplifier, and just buy a piece of equipment which will send a better signal to the subwoofer, or something...

I do not really want to get a new Amplifier... Just want to make my amplifier and subwoofer cooperate.

The speakers I have are.. B&W CDM 9NT.

Jeez... If there's no way to make the amplifier work with the subwoofer... I think I'll just return the subwoofer, and try to sell the speakers, and then just buy speakers which have better "woofers"in them, or something... I really love the amplifier... meow...

Edit:

Also been in contact with the seller of the SVS subwoofer... They are saying that I need to contact the AST Emitter guys, since I am connecting it to a bad output - Meow...

This sux... Why can't all this high-end equipment just get along? T.T (a much easier way to think of things than "hey dumbass, why haven't you researched such a constly gift before hand?")

 

[jonnythan]

You can keep the amplifier. Just get a receiver with preouts, like a Yamaha A800. It's a worthwhile upgrade in its own right because its calibration routines will make the sound better all by itself.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I think you could try to connect source to low level inputs on the sub (luckily your sub has them) and connect low-level output to your ASR.
This will ensure your main a properly crossed-over, however that still means you'll to set correctly crossover point and phase. It'll best to do with measurement tools, but if not available your ears will do.

Your B&W are rated down to 38Hz - which I think is a bit too optimistic with 6.5" woofers even for ported.
I'd start crossover at 80Hz.

p.s: Bi-Wiring is pure nonsense

But you prefer to spend money rather than learn something new - Receiver with Audyssey Eq and pre-outs will do - Denon 4311CI for example

 

[AlonPerel]

Wait guys, I need to go now to the gym, but from what I've read from your two replies, I understood that I will have to re-read them and do some googling *grins*

As for bi-wiring... Placebo. *grins* If I remove them now, I'll lose confidence *chuckles*.

Are you guys syaing there is like, NO benefit at ALL to bi-wiring? because if so... I'd like a link to explain this, then I can internalize it, and remove the biwiring, and not lose my placebo-given-confidence *Grins*

 

[jonnythan]

For bi-wiring, take a look at the picture here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=247855&postcount=58

BSA's idea about cd output -> sub -> speakers is a good one.

 

[Warpdrv]

Im not sure that it will be all that easy to use the low level inputs - they are RCA in and Balanced out....

 

[jonnythan]

I see RCA in and RCA out as well as balanced in and balanced out.

 

[Warpdrv]

Good lord, you are right....

He could use an RCA selector switch - to choose either the CD player or the computer and then send that signal to the sub and then out to the amp.

Cheap but reasonable solution....

Something like this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014KOAD8/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B004CLBVKQ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=11ZE5902VFMTC618DRY7

 

[AlonPerel]

Ummm, guys... I don't get it at all... how does the RCA switch thingy help improving quality? I am really excited though... But I am afraid that perhapes you are not talkign of improving quality but something else! meow *is excited but scared of beign idssapointed*