Grave lack of corporate integrity: - Yamaha F150

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Recently I had to scrap our boat Tuscan, we had owned for 21 years. She was 36 years young.



My wife and I got caught in three to four foot swells out on Leech Lake. After that she was taking on a little water, so I pulled her for close inspection.

The hull especially the transom was no longer seaworthy.

So I found a very well cared for 1997 SeaRay 175 series five at Outing Minnesota on Lake Roosevelt. It was powered by a 125 Mercury, that was standard equipment on these.

This engine was an absolute piece of junk. That is why the boat was in such good shape.

I trialled the boat on Roosevelt Lake, and the engine performed in the ridiculous fashion that all these engines do, if they work at all.

These engines run at idle and below 2200 RPM on two cylinders and switch over in this rev range to four cylinder, giving you a mighty jolt as the lower two cylinders cut in.

The engine has no cylinder head and the block and and head are one piece! This makes service of a ring job, for instance, next to impossible.

Now these engines are two stroke. So the lower cylinders while not firing can not be decompressed. Also they have to receive so little fuel in that mode, that there is barely any lubrication. Remember the engine is two cycle and lubricates from the oil in the gas. So the engines are very prone to cold seizing.

The engines are a hard start with a very rough idle due to two pistons fighting compression. At the range where it does not know if it wants to be on two or four cylinders it just about shook the boat apart.

The reason for this nonsense was the lousy MBAs and marketers. The tale was to have an engine that was high power and a kicker engine all in one. Trouble is if you use it as a kicker engine you blow it up!

Anyhow I just wanted the hull and transferred the my Yamaha F150 to the SeaRay.

I sold the miserable Mercury for $1500 in under 24 hours on Craigslist. I did not have the heart to sell it to the first caller, who had one of these dogs on his Pontoon boat. The engine had been nothing but trouble and finally had broken a piston. I could not resist asking him why he wanted to go through this again. Anyhow I had people chasing this engine from far and wide, even from Canada. I returned all calls and Emails. It seems there a many boats in need of repowering due lousy design and penny pinching MBAs. Don't think this sort of thing is not a core reason for the economic mess we are in. There is a connection.

So I did the transfer work with the two staff at Bob's boat, Josh and Tom, at Laporte MN, just down the road.

We added a 12 gallon fuel tank, added gauges and installed the marine band radio and GPS.

I was proud of the GPS installation and converted one of the cup holders as the base.



Anyhow the conversion took two and a half days and went very well. The boat achieves a speed of 52 mph at 5600 rpm.

Here she is on my lift.



The new instrument cluster.



In a pleasant harbor on Horseshoe Bay Leech Lake.



We now get to the real meat of the story.

While changing the engine over another boat with a Yamaha 150 four cycle came in of the same vintage as mine. It was exhibiting strange and ominous symptoms. I really had no idea what was at the bottom of it. I should have gone to the NET.

The boat was dispatched to the local Yamaha dealer and chalked up a bill of $1700.

It turns out that these engines from 2004 to 2006 had plastic gears driving the two harmonic balancer shafts without an oil spray. The gears shred and cause severe engine damage including total loss of oil pressure. The local dealer has replaced two engine blocks for this problem as well as replaced numerous balancer units. This problem is all over the NET.

This post is particularly revealing.

To make matters worse the first tech bulletin about the installation of the redesigned balancer unit, which has metal gears and an oil spray tower, had wrong information for timing the balancers causing more damage.

Yamaha have refused to recall these engines, which is not only unethical, but immoral. These engines take boats out far from land. An engine failure in a boat in rough sees is close to as dangerous as an aircraft engine.

I can tell you Yamaha are really getting an earful from me.

The next issue is that the local dealer is a price gouger. He wants $791 for the updated balancer unit. The MRSP is $320 and I can purchase it from Sim Yamaha for $255.96!

So I will continue to blast Yamaha and before venturing out far from land I will purchase a unit from Sim Yamaha and instal it myself if Yamaha won't do the honorable thing.

What makes this all the more disgraceful is that there is an oil passage in the block, but not the original unit. The revised unit has a passage that lines up with this passage for the spray tower.

This tells me that the MBA types insisted on plastic gears to cut corners against the advice of engineers. The engineers left an oil way knowing full well a bad problem had been created. This made retrofit possible.

Now this motor was not cheap and the top of its class in price. These units run into trouble usually between 150 and 200 hours. This is the range of the hours on my engine.

Unfortunately this is just another example among many of severe corporate malfeasance.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Plastic gears?! Yikes. Plastics have come a long, long way - but that's surprising. I wonder what level of testing/analysis they did on the structural performance of those parts before approving the design for production.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Good luck Mark!
Keep up posted on your progress, I'm interested to see how you make out.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Plastic gears?! Yikes. Plastics have come a long, long way - but that's surprising. I wonder what level of testing/analysis they did on the structural performance of those parts before approving the design for production.
Agreed Adam; I'm interested to hear their reasoning.

They used to coat the timing gears of most (not all) car engines from the 1960's until the switch to timing belts.
The plastic would start to crack and chip off at around 50k miles, or sooner if the engine was run hot or the oil wasn't changed. The broken pieces would drop down into the oil pan and clog the oil pump pickup.:eek:
The reason was to make the engine quieter.
It seemed at the time car buyers thought that a quite engine was a reliable engine.







.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
Good luck with this but I'm sure you know what boat stands for...

Bust Out Another Thousand

If it's not one thing it's another.




So where do you put your beer now? :confused:
Well, if he is like most boat owners, it never leaves his hand,:D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So where do you put your beer now? :confused:
As you might guess, I don't take beer on boats. Cars are bad enough, boats are worse when it comes to booze.

The body count in Minnesota has been very severe this year among boozy boaters.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Good luck with this but I'm sure you know what boat stands for...

Bust Out Another Thousand

If it's not one thing it's another.

Well, if he is like most boat owners, it never leaves his hand,:D
Often true. Most of the money dropped is due to ignorance and lack of maintenance.

People think boats are simpler than cars, they are not. Engines and especially gear cases get stretched very hard.

On the whole I have had very reliable boating.

Once I fix that balancer idiocy, I should have very reliable boating. On the whole this Yamaha F150 outboards are a very well built engine.
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
Bummer to hear about your Yami. I have had there quads for years and they are are nearly indestructable, both 2 and 4 strokes. I know boat engines are totally different animals, but my 450 is ridden as a practice and raced on occassion. I bought it brand new in '07 and still haven't even adjusted the valves yet. The boat I mostly fish out of in the Gulf has a Yami 200 about 150 hrs and (knock on wood) we have had zero issues. We use pump gas. I will have to check on this and see if its an issue with it. Its a salt water series, but not sure what the differences are.
I just had the issue of plastic parts going bad myself, but on one of my cars. I have always been a Ford guy, but I bought a Sublime Daytona when they came out because it was something no one else had (they only made 1500). I got rid of last month, but before I did, I had to replace the shift lock out. It basically releases the shifter out of park when the brake is applied. There are thousands of cars this has broken on and Dodge dealerships are getting about $300 bucks to replace the $20 part which when it breaks, you are stranded. It should be a recall, but Dodge see's $$$$. I'm pretty sure all automakers do it, but I had yet to experience till this.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Bummer to hear about your Yami. I have had there quads for years and they are are nearly indestructable, both 2 and 4 strokes. I know boat engines are totally different animals, but my 450 is ridden as a practice and raced on occassion. I bought it brand new in '07 and still haven't even adjusted the valves yet. The boat I mostly fish out of in the Gulf has a Yami 200 about 150 hrs and (knock on wood) we have had zero issues. We use pump gas. I will have to check on this and see if its an issue with it. Its a salt water series, but not sure what the differences are.
I just had the issue of plastic parts going bad myself, but on one of my cars. I have always been a Ford guy, but I bought a Sublime Daytona when they came out because it was something no one else had (they only made 1500). I got rid of last month, but before I did, I had to replace the shift lock out. It basically releases the shifter out of park when the brake is applied. There are thousands of cars this has broken on and Dodge dealerships are getting about $300 bucks to replace the $20 part which when it breaks, you are stranded. It should be a recall, but Dodge see's $$$$. I'm pretty sure all automakers do it, but I had yet to experience till this.
Basically the Yami F150 is I think a good engine, at least compared to the competition. Thus balancer fiasco is just something Yamaha need to deal with to prevent tragedies.

The outboards over 150 HP are V6 engines and do not need balancers.

High displacement (over 2 Lt.) in line four cylinder four cycle engines require balancer shafts.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Unfortunately this is just another example among many of severe corporate malfeasance.
Do you know how many mechanics put their kids through Harvard and Yale repairing Mistu supplied transmissions on Mopar minivans and Cherokees'?

It's a time honored tradition.

A mechanic just saw next semesters tuition with a 98 Cherokee towed in. Rubbing their greasy little hands together.
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
Basically the Yami F150 is I think a good engine, at least compared to the competition. Thus balancer fiasco is just something Yamaha need to deal with to prevent tragedies.
I like Yamaha products, the only other power I would purchase for a boat would be Evinrude. I also believe any engine can fail, and when we plan on trips over 15 miles out, we use my other buddies twin engine 32'.

The outboards over 150 HP are V6 engines and do not need balancers.

High displacement (over 2 Lt.) in line four cylinder four cycle engines require balancer shafts.
Roger that, it is a V6.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I like Yamaha products, the only other power I would purchase for a boat would be Evinrude. I also believe any engine can fail, and when we plan on trips over 15 miles out, we use my other buddies twin engine 32'.



Roger that, it is a V6.
At Medway Pier Marine, we used to say: "If you can't look after one engine, you can't look after two." That proved true many times, with the need to rescue craft with both engines down.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I personally handle the Waypoint Technology account at my work and we print the labels that go on their Humminbird memory cards. I always thought it was weird that they leave out the "g" in Hummingbird.
 
C

Calvin Hobbes

Audioholic Intern
Do you know how many mechanics put their kids through Harvard and Yale repairing Mistu supplied transmissions on Mopar minivans and Cherokees'?

It's a time honored tradition.

A mechanic just saw next semesters tuition with a 98 Cherokee towed in. Rubbing their greasy little hands together.
The minivan transmissions that had high failure rates were Chrysler designed and manufactured. Known throughout the dealerships as Ultraslides...It was a cheap design to keep down cost and was severely handicapped in the heavier minivans. The overdrive unit was lopped onto a three speed transmission with an electronically controlled o/d and torque converter. i benefited greatly to the lack of quality. A 70,000 warrnty on those transmissions and we made time on o/h and replacing those transmissionsthrough the years. Hell, One Saturday in the early 90's I had five of those show up on the hook b4 lunch.

The 3 speed transmission used in the minivans were also Chrysler designed and manufactured. They were pretty strong and had solid shifts. Old school design, but reliable.

The Cherokees(not to be confused with the GC) were supplied with Aisin-Warner transmissions. They were by far the most reliable powertrains Chrysler had through the end of the century. Toyota has a large percentage ownership of Aisin.

The view that American companies were all about quality back in the day is nostalgia masquerading as facts. We would all like to reminisce about how great it was( and it was!), but our view backwards is veiled in sentimenality and helps us feel better, as we see the USA going the way of the Roman Empire.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The minivan transmissions that had high failure rates were Chrysler designed and manufactured. Known throughout the dealerships as Ultraslides...It was a cheap design to keep down cost and was severely handicapped in the heavier minivans. The overdrive unit was lopped onto a three speed transmission with an electronically controlled o/d and torque converter. i benefited greatly to the lack of quality. A 70,000 warrnty on those transmissions and we made time on o/h and replacing those transmissionsthrough the years. Hell, One Saturday in the early 90's I had five of those show up on the hook b4 lunch.

The 3 speed transmission used in the minivans were also Chrysler designed and manufactured. They were pretty strong and had solid shifts. Old school design, but reliable.

The Cherokees(not to be confused with the GC) were supplied with Aisin-Warner transmissions. They were by far the most reliable powertrains Chrysler had through the end of the century. Toyota has a large percentage ownership of Aisin.

The view that American companies were all about quality back in the day is nostalgia masquerading as facts. We would all like to reminisce about how great it was( and it was!), but our view backwards is veiled in sentimentality and helps us feel better, as we see the USA going the way of the Roman Empire.
Great post, thanks for your insight.
Couldn't have said it any better than that.
 
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