Sound Field Audio - can your bookshelf reach this low?

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
(It's funny, because I had no idea how 'notorious' and controvrsial AJ has been on all these audio forums. I'm active on Audio Circle, and he's always very civil and helpful there. When I saw some of the threads on AVS and others, I was llke, 'whoa...:eek:')
AJ in FLA is very knowledgable, but he can really hurt audiophools' feelings with logic, common sense, and scientific facts/perceptual research, which makes sense, because audiophools reject those things and trust only their golden ears.

I think all of us generally agree with AJinFLA but his manner can be harsh sometimes :eek:

I don't really go to audiocircle but it seems like a really esoteric board. I'd assume it's not worth it to even bother at such a place, when it's 9:1 on insane to sane ratio. They even have a "Cable Reviews" forum.. wtf :eek:
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
AJ in FLA is very knowledgable, but he can really hurt audiophools' feelings with logic, common sense, and scientific facts/perceptual research, which makes sense, because audiophools reject those things and trust only their golden ears.

I think all of us generally agree with AJinFLA but his manner can be harsh sometimes :eek:

I don't really go to audiocircle but it seems like a really esoteric board. I'd assume it's not worth it to even bother at such a place, when it's 9:1 on insane to sane ratio. They even have a "Cable Reviews" forum.. wtf :eek:
I suppose some of his posts have 'sharp elbows'. But I still don't get why people get so worked up about audio measurements and perception. Yeesh :rolleyes:. But hey, who am I to judge?

As for Audio Circle, I don't get a particularly kool aid drinking vibe over there. Generally, controversial topics such as cables, jitter, break in, and the like get a fairly balanced response of believers and skeptics. The thing that is different about Audio Circle is that mudslinging, personal attacks, and playground arguments are not tolerated at all (threads get galactic wastebinned after a warning), so it may seem that there is more agreement about such topics than there is. People there are pretty tolerant of others' views.

Anyway, I am way impressed with the sound of the Soundfield Audio Monitor 1, and that's all I care about. You never know where good stuff will come from. If you went by a lot of threads around AJ, you'd think he was the devil himself. But man, he sure put his speakers where his mouth is. I hope he brings them to more shows, because people are going to be blown away. I hyperbole not.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
audio measurements and perception. Yeesh :rolleyes:. But hey, who am I to judge?

Anyway, I am way impressed with the sound of the Soundfield Audio Monitor 1
There's a correlation between these things ;P

Honestly though, i'm way more interested in the open baffle prototypes. The Monitor 1s seem like "See what you can do with an active crossover and a car audio subwoofer?" just trying to make a point for the sake of making a point whereas those OBs seriously address issues of in-room bass response and directivity control.
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
The OB design might be the more intriguing one from a DIY/ hardcore enthusiast point of view, but the SAM1 is the way more marketable design, because it addresses a real open niche in the market, namely...

(And this, I think was (part of) AJ's stated design brief):

To make a relatively affordable monitor that provided a true full range alternative to the standard 2 way 6"/1" monitor in a pretty veneered cabinet that everyone makes. (As he points out, a passive 6" driver in a small box simply cannot deliver powerful low frequency response. An 8" powered long throw sealed sub can, however.) Check. Full range indeed.

Also, by implementing the Kef Uni-Q 5.25 coaxial mid/tweeter drivers, AJ was addressing the need for balanced off axis in room response, the lack of which requires all the room treatment that he believes (and has proven IMHO) unnecessary with a good speaker design.

This last has been born out in my case. Before I got the SAM1s, I was sure that my room's acoustics sucked, and that I would need lots of treatments. Actually, it was my old speakers' off axis response that sucked (among other things). My room sounds very, very good, not harsh or boomy. It's the speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I may get the chance to audition his speakers and compare them to my Salon2s, KEF 201/2s, and Linkwitz Orions.
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
I may get the chance to audition his speakers and compare them to my Salon2s, KEF 201/2s, and Linkwitz Orions.
That should be interesting. Is he doing a demo tour?

By the way, a propos of your screen name:

My amp - Acurus DIA-100
My last speakers - Def Tech BP8020

;)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
This last has been born out in my case. Before I got the SAM1s, I was sure that my room's acoustics sucked, and that I would need lots of treatments. Actually, it was my old speakers' off axis response that sucked (among other things). My room sounds very, very good, not harsh or boomy. It's the speakers.
Yep. Everything you say is what acudeftechguy is always posting in every thread about B&W speakers :D

Okay, ...certain.. other people too <_<;;; >_>;;;

You can still improve small things in the room acoustics - things like thick corner bass traps from floor to ceiling, QRD diffusion panels along the rear wall, and generally aiming for a consistent decay.

...but when you start with speakers that measure well, the audiophile nonsense (hospital esque padded rooms + """electronics synergy""") goes away pretty quickly huh? At that point fixing the room is just striving for perfection rather than trying to fix a big problem!

Didn't understand this part of your post... clarify?
Your speakers sound great and don't cost a ton, because they measure great and focus on the fruits of all the perceptual research AJ reads rather than crap that barely if at all affects what we hear like "bomb shelter enclosures" and "Z-caps" and and "jitter" while using the same fundamentally flawed design concept.
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
Yep. Everything you say is what acudeftechguy is always posting in every thread about B&W speakers :D

Okay, ...certain.. other people too <_<;;; >_>;;;

You can still improve small things in the room acoustics - things like thick corner bass traps from floor to ceiling, QRD diffusion panels along the rear wall, and generally aiming for a consistent decay.

...but when you start with speakers that measure well, the audiophile nonsense (hospital esque padded rooms + """electronics synergy""") goes away pretty quickly huh? At that point fixing the room is just striving for perfection rather than trying to fix a big problem!



Your speakers sound great and don't cost a ton, because they measure great and focus on the fruits of all the perceptual research AJ reads rather than crap like "bomb shelter enclosures" and "Z-caps" :D
Acudeftechguy is saying that the B&Ws were the problem or the solution?

I've already built a small 'skyline' diffusor as a test run, am going to build a bigger one for my rear wall, partially 'cause I like the way they look, partially to see if I get a further smoothness in the mids. But it's really for fun, because I don't feel I 'need' treatments like I thought I did before.

I don't know about bass traps. Seems a lot of investment. Do you have positive experience using them? How has it changed the sound?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I don't know about bass traps. Seems a lot of investment. Do you have positive experience using them? How has it changed the sound?
You'll need THICK rigid fibreglass bass traps from floor to ceiling.

The bass is where ALL rooms are a problem for omnisources (and why the dipole/cardioid source is a better albeit not "perfect" idea). Too many standing waves cancelling and combining.

Below 100hz or so you might benefit from rolling in two or three subs. to augment the bass and flatten it out from seat to seat. But between 100hz and ~300hz or so, bass traps will work best.

What you'll find is a "flattening" of response.. a bit more here, a bit less there. How big of a difference it'll make will depend on how bad your room is for bass right now. Decay should improve. obviously your speakers aren't boomy anymore, which is good, but you can probably tighten the bass up with a pair of tall bass traps.

You can make floor-to-ceiling bass traps for the two front corners with three or four packs of this stuff:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Rockboard-60-Case-of-6--RB60.html

If you're not going to make them at least 8" thick and floor-to-ceiling, you're probably better off not bothering. Think acoustic panels don`t absorb bass and isntead just mess up power response leading to an unnatural sound.
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
Hmmm, I'll probably pass on that project. Thanks for the explanation, though. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That should be interesting. Is he doing a demo tour?

By the way, a propos of your screen name:

My amp - Acurus DIA-100
My last speakers - Def Tech BP8020

;)
AJ made a friendly offer to lend me a pair of his SA M1 speakers to compare to my Salon2s, KEF 201/2s, and Linkwitz Orions v3.2.1. I accepted his offer.:D

Yeah, I used to be crazy with Acurus & Def Tech.:D
At one point I had 4 Acurus RL-11 preamps and 4 Acurus 200X3 to make an analog 7.1 system plus bi-amping/triamping insanity.:D
I've also owned the DefTech BP7000SC, BP7001SC, BP10B, SM450, CLR3000, & SC Trinity.
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
AJ made a friendly offer to lend me a pair of his SA M1 speakers to compare to my Salon2s, KEF 201/2s, and Linkwitz Orions v3.2.1. I accepted his offer.:D

Yeah, I used to be crazy with Acurus & Def Tech.:D
At one point I had 4 Acurus RL-11 preamps and 4 Acurus 200X3 to make an analog 7.1 system plus bi-amping/triamping insanity.:D
I've also owned the DefTech BP7000SC, BP7001SC, BP10B, SM450, CLR3000, & SC Trinity.
Holy smokes, that's some serious competition. If the SAM1s can even compete with customers like the Revels and the Kefs, well...:eek:

Are you going to post your impressions on this forum?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yep. Everything you say is what acudeftechguy is always posting in every thread about B&W speakers :D

Okay, ...certain.. other people too...
Acudeftechguy is saying that the B&Ws were the problem or the solution?
Well, both the B&W 802D and the new 800 Diamond have terrible horizontal off-axis polar respsonses.

I sent an email to B&W and sent them the link to Stereophile's measurements and asked them specifically about both the 802D & 800 D's horizontal off-axis response.

You know what they said to me?

They said their VERITICAL off-axis looks pretty decent.:eek:

I replied and said that I had specifically asked about the horizontal off-axis and asked if they could elaborate.

You know what they said?

Absolutely NOTHING.

I sent them a (second) brand new email.

No response.

I sent them a 3rd independent email asking the same question.

No response.

I've auditioned the 803D & 802D. I've auditioned the 800D twice, a year apart, @ 2 different locations.

I did not love the sound of these speakers nearly as much as some highly respected guys like PENG & TLS Guy. I think 3db also likes the B&W 800-series sounds.

Still, I love the way they look aesthetically (802D & 800D) - I'm a sucker for great looks..:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Holy smokes, that's some serious competition. If the SAM1s can even compete with customers like the Revels and the Kefs, well...:eek:

Are you going to post your impressions on this forum?
Absolutely.:D

I plan to compare the SAM1s with all 3 sets of speakers....with pictures too.:D
 
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neekomax

Audiophyte
Hmmm, that doesn't look good for B&W.

Still, I love the way they look aesthetically (802D & 800D) - I'm a sucker for great looks..
By the way, I've heard it said that many speaker manufacturers primary design objective is to build good looking speakers. People think they sound better when they look good. :eek:

Seems like that's where marketing psychology is bad for the consumer in the end, as it puts sound quality second to cosmetic considerations.

Of course, I'm sure most people think that this only applies to other people, not to themselves. We all think we're smarter than the average bear... but if everyone's smarter than average, than an average can't possibly exist :p
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Hmmm, that doesn't look good for B&W.



By the way, I've heard it said that many speaker manufacturers primary design objective is to build good looking speakers. People think they sound better when they look good. :eek:

Seems like that's where marketing psychology is bad for the consumer in the end, as it puts sound quality second to cosmetic considerations.

Of course, I'm sure most people think that this only applies to other people, not to themselves. We all think we're smarter than the average bear... but if everyone's smarter than average, than an average can't possibly exist :p

That's what makes a dedicated HT room so special. Even if it looks like this:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/4129883462_66537a5141_o.jpg

No one sees it. (Although I like the way the Q8 looks)
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hmmm, that doesn't look good for B&W.



By the way, I've heard it said that many speaker manufacturers primary design objective is to build good looking speakers. People think they sound better when they look good. :eek:

Seems like that's where marketing psychology is bad for the consumer in the end, as it puts sound quality second to cosmetic considerations.

Of course, I'm sure most people think that this only applies to other people, not to themselves. We all think we're smarter than the average bear... but if everyone's smarter than average, than an average can't possibly exist :p
That's what makes a dedicated HT room so special. Even if it looks like this:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/4129883462_66537a5141_o.jpg

No one sees it. (Although I like the way the Q8 looks)

Except that one is still affected in the purchasing decision when selecting it. I have been buying and selling used gear off and on, as a little hobby because I like playing with various gear for a while and lack the room for storing every possible toy (as well as the budget for buying them and keeping them). I have noticed that one can, for the most part, tell market value by looks and also by reputation of the product. Actual performance seems like a much less relevant aspect of the price of the item in question. A small exception to that is with power amplifiers, where very high power commands a higher price, but in such cases, it is typically people buying a high number that they don't really need, so it typically isn't the resulting performance that matters. Another thing that affects value is whether the item is the top of the line or not; for example, the price difference between an old Pioneer SX-1250 and SX-1050 seems to be greater than the actual performance difference warrants.

Looks matter to people. If the selections were all made double blind, probably most of us would have different gear than we do.

In my case, a very long time ago (early 1980's) I bought a Pioneer SX-1250, which was purchased not because I needed all the features or power, but, in part, because I liked the looks of it and I had wanted one when I first saw one new in the stereo shops earlier when I could not afford it. In this particular case, it was probably at about its lowest point in value, as it was just a used receiver at the time, and I paid $325 for it, in near mint condition with a copy of the manual and the original box and packing material, which I still have. And it is still in near mint condition, as I take care of my equipment. In recent years, I could easily have sold it for twice what I paid for it.

I had been looking at new equipment at that time, but the used Pioneer was a better value than anything new I could get; certainly, if I had purchased a new Denon receiver that I was looking at that cost about that much, its current market value would be near zero. (And its power output was about a fifth of the Pioneer, and it lacked many of the Pioneer's features, and its tuner performance, though not bad, was not as good.)

Now, the things I like about the SX-1250 include much that has little to do with actual performance, though some of it does have to do with actual use of it (but not all). I very much like the real wood trim and real wood veneer, and I like the aesthetics of the piece very much. Since it sits in my living room in plain view, this matters to me, and I make no excuse for this, but it does not have to do with actual performance, and I know that very well. I also like the aluminum front, which is easy to read and one can easily find the controls one wants. I can see how things are set from across the room, unlike any of the black face gear I have. And I like that each control does one thing; it is not like a modern receiver with an onscreen menu, with which what pushing a button does depends upon what was pushed previously. So it is very easy to use, despite its large number of controls (which, by the way, are very logically grouped and arranged, unlike quite a lot of gear I have played with over the years). Convenience and ease of use are things that can affect whether one should buy a thing or not; this is most clearly seen when considering a universal remote control, which obviously does not improve the actual performance of anything, and is money purely for convenience.

To consider reputation for a moment, if today, Bose released the greatest speaker ever made, many here would never consider it and never bother listening to it, based upon Bose's bad reputation. This illustrates the effect of reputation. I might also add that I used to own a piece of McIntosh gear, that was not particularly good, but I sold it for a decent amount of money, getting its normal market price for it. Yes, it was solidly made, but its actual performance was nothing special at all, and its market value has to do more with the McIntosh name than anything else. Again, reputation matters for what people want and what they will pay for it. (Please don't misunderstand my remarks; there was nothing wrong with the McIntosh gear, just that its market value far exceeds its actual performance. But the people who claim that once one tries McIntosh, one will never go back to other gear, are just living in a dream world.)

Now, when something is going to be in plain view, I can totally understand someone selecting something that is aesthetically pleasing to look at. This is fine, as long as one realizes that that is what one is doing. I personally would never buy a pair of speakers that cost $1k or more that had vinyl veneer on them. Speakers tend to sound their best when they are in plain view, and so hiding them is generally out of the question. (I would, however, forgive a budget vinyl finish on a $100 speaker, as at that price point, the cost of a good finish could be a significant portion of the total cost, and I would rather have better performance, if the difference is significant. But with a speaker at $1k or more, an extra $50 for a decent finish is an insignificant percentage of the total cost.)

But there is also the issue of things looking like they perform well, and people are influenced by that as well, thinking that some things will be better because of some aspect of the appearance of the item. For example, there are people who believe that a 15" woofer will always put out more or better bass than a 12" woofer, which, however, is false, and obviously so to anyone who has measured the performance of very many speakers, or has paid attention to the measurements that others have taken. And there are people who believe that a three way speaker is better than a two way speaker, and all sorts of other such things, that are not directly matters of performance at all. In part, this is due to the fact that it is far easier to look to the size or number of drivers than to figure out which thing actually performs better, and people are often intellectually lazy and go with some easy way to make a decision rather than an accurate way to make the decision.

Anyway, any company that does not consider the looks of the product would be foolish to do so, as the looks will affect whether people buy it or not, and probably more so than actual performance. So it only makes good business sense for them to put some thought into the appearance of the item. And it also is not necessarily bad for the consumer, either, as a speaker manufacturer who makes speakers too ugly for anyone to buy will not be helping anyone, no matter how good they sound, for people will not be willing to buy them to enjoy them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I want "all of the above".

I want speakers that sound great, measure great, and look great.:D
 
M

magi44ken

Audiophyte
AcuDefTechGuy, what's the update status of getting a pair for deme that AJ promise you? I wonder how it stack up against the Philharmonic Monitor or Tower.
 
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