New setup for an Old Fart....

C

coconutjoe

Enthusiast
Hello everyone,

I always loved audio equipment, starting from age 14 when I acquired my first Pionner receiver and speakers. From 14 to 28, I played around with Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Nakamichi, Hafler, NAD, Carver, Infinity, Klipsch, etc.

Well, my kids are out of the house and I want to setup my system again. Most of my old equipment are gone or given away except few items that I treasured.

So far, I have below.

Small Room (16ft x 20ft)
Amp - Acurus 5 channel 125Wx5
Main speakers - Tannoy System 800
Sub Woofer - Klipsch - Active 10" TS-10

Any recommendation on center and rear channel?

I'm considering Tannoy MXC Center speaker. Any thoughts?

Thanks...

Joe
 
Crescendo

Crescendo

Audioholic Intern
Ideally, your center and rear speakers should match your mains. If your Tannoys are old, then you may have a hard time finding the matching center/surrounds, if they were ever available in the first place. Having the matching subwoofer is not as important.

If you can find the matching Tannoy's then that's great, otherwise I'd recommend looking into some new speakers that you can get a complete set of, if you can afford it.
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hello everyone,

I always loved audio equipment, starting from age 14 when I acquired my first Pionner receiver and speakers. From 14 to 28, I played around with Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Nakamichi, Hafler, NAD, Carver, Infinity, Klipsch, etc.

Well, my kids are out of the house and I want to setup my system again. Most of my old equipment are gone or given away except few items that I treasured.

So far, I have below.

Small Room (16ft x 20ft)
Amp - Acurus 5 channel 125Wx5
Main speakers - Tannoy System 800
Sub Woofer - Klipsch - Active 10" TS-10

Any recommendation on center and rear channel?

I'm considering Tannoy MXC Center speaker. Any thoughts?

Thanks...

Joe
Your question is close enough to someone else's that I will refer you to my response in that thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=828977&postcount=3

In your case, you would want to get a receiver with preamp outputs for all channels so that you can use that power amp, in case you need it.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
So far, I have below.

Small Room (16ft x 20ft)
Amp - Acurus 5 channel 125Wx5
Main speakers - Tannoy System 800
Sub Woofer - Klipsch - Active 10" TS-10

Any recommendation on center and rear channel?

I'm considering Tannoy MXC Center speaker. Any thoughts?

Thanks...

Joe
Hi Joe and welcome to AH.
Tannoy System 800 are excellent speakers from very reputable brand.

How many Tannoy speakers do you have - only two?

There is zero point matching the surrounds, for HT you do want to have front and center speakers to match tonally.

Is this is the speaker you're looking for http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tannoy-mxC-M-Center-Channel-Speaker-/170685325638?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers#ht_500wt_1413 ??

I see you're listed your amplifier, but you have a pre-amp or a receiver?

p.s: I'll tell you right away - Klipsch 10" subwoofer - doesn't really fit in this fine setup...
 
C

coconutjoe

Enthusiast
Thanks for the advice. I do have several receivers/pre-amps and haven't decided which one to use. And, about the Klipsch subwoofer, I do agree with your comment about not fitting this system, but wanted to save some money.

Which sub woofer do you recommend? Is active or passive make difference?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the advice. I do have several receivers/pre-amps and haven't decided which one to use. And, about the Klipsch subwoofer, I do agree with your comment about not fitting this system, but wanted to save some money.

Which sub woofer do you recommend? Is active or passive make difference?
Active or passive is not going to make a difference in the sound quality of a subwoofer, though I personally like passive so that I can easily replace the amplifier if I wish to do so. However, given that most are active, if I were buying one today, I would probably end up with an active one from SVS. But if my budget would allow, I would seriously consider their current passive option:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-legato.cfm

There are other good brands also, which others may tell you about.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I'll second SVS. They were purchased by another company recently, so time will tell if their customer service remains the same quality. When I bought my PC13-Ultra back in 2007, though, I was floored by how good their service was. Really top notch.

But if my budget would allow, I would seriously consider their current passive option:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-legato.cfm
They talk those up on their site, but I struggle with considering it above two PC12-Pluses. A little bit less coin than two powered cylinders (but they might still offer a 5% discount when you buy multiple subs), but also half the power. Looks like they took one of the 800W Sledge amps and repackaged it for use with two cylinders instead of one. The PC12-Plus and Legato have the same response curves, as far as I can tell (which would make sense, as they look to be the same cylinder and driver). Pyrro - am I missing something? I respect your opinion and am wondering if there's something about the Legato that I'm not seeing. Maybe it's just personal preference on active versus passive?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I'll second SVS. They were purchased by another company recently, so time will tell if their customer service remains the same quality. When I bought my PC13-Ultra back in 2007, though, I was floored by how good their service was. Really top notch.


They talk those up on their site, but I struggle with considering it above two PC12-Pluses. A little bit less coin than two powered cylinders (but they might still offer a 5% discount when you buy multiple subs), but also half the power. Looks like they took one of the 800W Sledge amps and repackaged it for use with two cylinders instead of one. The PC12-Plus and Legato have the same response curves, as far as I can tell (which would make sense, as they look to be the same cylinder and driver). Pyrro - am I missing something? I respect your opinion and am wondering if there's something about the Legato that I'm not seeing. Maybe it's just personal preference on active versus passive?
It is primarily as I state in my post above; I like being able to use whatever power amplifier pleases me to use. Often, when a powered subwoofer fails, it is the amplifier that fails; speakers, as a rule, are extremely reliable and last a long time if not abused.

I remember when SVS sold more passive subwoofers, and what they said back then. Although the frequency response curves looked almost identical to the powered models, they said that the passive ones could produce slightly deeper/better bass due to having a slightly larger volume inside the cabinet, as there was no amplifier taking up space. That, of course, is something they could have compensated for by making the cabinet slightly larger, so it is not decisive for preferring one type over the other, though it can make a difference in practice if the manufacturer chooses not to make the cabinet larger to compensate.

Also, by having the amplifier separate, the subwoofer is lighter and easier to move.

But, in favor of having an active subwoofer, it slightly simplifies setup (as one does not have to run speaker wire from an amplifier to the subwoofer driver), and it also takes up less space. And I suspect that the resale value on a powered subwoofer would be higher, as there are many people who don't know anything about equipment and imagine that it has to be built-in to be right, as that is what they are used to seeing. But with the subwoofers we are talking about, one is unlikely to really need to ever upgrade.

And, as you say, it is slightly less money for the Legato pair than for a pair of the PC12-Plus subwoofers, and so one gets identical performance (it seems; contacting SVS about this issue would be a good idea before spending that kind of money) for less money, which is always a good thing. But one is stuck buying a pair, and if one can only afford one, it will not be acceptable.

As for half the power, we are talking about a 3dB difference [each] in volume (if we are looking at continuous power, it is continuous volume that would be different by 3dB, assuming that the drivers can handle the additional power continuously; it is difficult to say what it would be for peak volume without knowing peak power for the different amplifiers), if the sensitivity is the same. However, I believe that the woofers themselves are different, and so the one may not be louder at all.

Given the prices, one would hope that a pair of the PC-12Plus subwoofers would perform slightly better than the Legato pair, but I would contact SVS about that before coming to any conclusions one way or the other.


In my particular case, I have a pair of these:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/svs-cs-ultra-subwoofers-5-2002.html

I use a different amplifier and EQ from those in the review. I do not plan on ever upgrading them, and am very happy with their performance. I could probably live with just one, but I bought them used together from someone who was changing out his system and no longer had room for such large subwoofers. Now that I have the two, I will keep them both for life, or until they fail, which likely means for life for me.

And yes, SVS's customer service is good. Even though I bought mine used, they were happy to sell me the port plugs that were missing from mine at a reasonable price (they called it free and that I only paid shipping, if I remember correctly, but it seemed on the high side for just shipping; still, I am not complaining, as the price was very reasonable for what I got).


I also recently picked up an SVS 20-39PC-Plus that I plan on passing along to my brother, which is a powered model, so I do not have an obsession about this, though I do prefer passive subwoofers for the reasons stated above. This subwoofer, by the way, is also an excellent performer, and I expect my brother will be very pleased with it when he gets his hands on it.

In the case of this 20-39PC-Plus, it made more sense that the guy was selling it, as he was moving and he did not keep the shipping box. Still, I find it odd that anyone would want to part with such great subwoofers, as one loses money buying new and then selling it used. With all three subwoofers, they pretty well look new, and so I am very happy to have acquired them all at less than half retail price. And my experience with these three subwoofers reminds me of something else SVS claimed many years ago, that their Plus models were almost as good as their Ultra models, which I think is true. But I am still happy to have a pair of Ultras.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Which sub woofer do you recommend? Is active or passive make difference?
Modern Active subs have really well engineered limiting, soft clipping, and equalization within their active amps. DSP amps like Funk Audio, JTR, Seaton, and SVS, use, are especially useful. I use a "passive" sub (my own external 2500w amp) and that's fine (cheaper) too, mind you, but GOOD modern active DSP subs are ""foolproof"". They'll know when to back off even if the signal is asking for more, know what I mean? They'll never let you push them so hard, that you're hearing distortion or damaging the driver.

Most important with subs, is getting multiples. It is necessary if you want consistent, flat frequency response at multiple seating positions. A single sub, and a room, do not like each other. A second and even third sub, will make a huge difference both measurably, and audibly (and i'm not talking about output here... the second and especially third sub don't even need to be as "good")

I recommend three Rythmik FV15HP
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html
 
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Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Modern Active subs have really well engineered limiting, soft clipping, and equalization within their active amps. DSP amps like Funk Audio, JTR, Seaton, and SVS, use, are especially useful. I use a "passive" sub (my own external 2500w amp) and that's fine (cheaper) too, mind you, but GOOD modern active DSP subs are ""foolproof"". They'll know when to back off even if the signal is asking for more, know what I mean? They'll never let you push them so hard, that you're hearing distortion or damaging the driver.
...
Good point. If the subwoofer is properly made, it can be foolproof with a built-in amplifier, so that it is impossible* to damage the woofer with excessive power, which is a significant advantage, particularly if one is not a careful user (and is also an argument in favor of powered speakers generally, not just subwoofers). But only if it is properly made.

______________
*That is, impossible as long as the protection circuitry is functioning properly.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the advice. I do have several receivers/pre-amps and haven't decided which one to use. And, about the Klipsch subwoofer, I do agree with your comment about not fitting this system, but wanted to save some money.

Which sub woofer do you recommend? Is active or passive make difference?
would you be so kind as to provide full list of your existing equipment so we could give you better suggestion. Including the size of the room and your total budget..

See above for plenty of subwoofer advice - I concur SVS subs are very solid choice
 
C

coconutjoe

Enthusiast
Thanks... Here is the list of my audio equipment..

Room is 16ft x 20ft x 10ft high

Speakers:
Klipsch Forte II pair (100+ lbs)
Tannoy System 800 pair
Klipsch TS-10 Active Sub Woofer

Amp:
Acurus A125X5
Yamaha M70
Hafler DH-220

Pre Amp:
Rotel RC-972
Carver C-16

Receiver:
Denon AVR-1010 (Dolby Pro Logic from 1991)
Onkyo TX DS-555 (5.1 channel)

===========================
I have setup in a larger room (20ft x 30ft)

Yamaha M70
Rotel RC-972
Klipsch Forte II

===========================
I want to setup my man-cave audio room (16ft x 20ft x 10ft high)

Tannoy System 800 pair
Acurus Amp to drive Tannoy, rear, & center
Hafler to drive Subwoofer
(or option of using Onkyo Receiver & Hafler, but I rather use Acurus Amp)

I need your expert advise on Rear Speakers, Center Speaker, & Subwoofer.
Any other advise is welcome.

My budget is $1500, max $2000.

Thank you !!

Joe
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Good point. If the subwoofer is properly made, it can be foolproof with a built-in amplifier, so that it is impossible* to damage the woofer with excessive power, which is a significant advantage, particularly if one is not a careful user (and is also an argument in favor of powered speakers generally, not just subwoofers). But only if it is properly made.

______________
*That is, impossible as long as the protection circuitry is functioning properly.
Nothing is fool-proof :p

Honestly I'd recommend an active sub. It makes life easier I wish my sub had a plate amp instead of a power amp. There is little difference between the two unlike speakers where active has advantages.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Good point. If the subwoofer is properly made, it can be foolproof with a built-in amplifier, so that it is impossible* to damage the woofer with excessive power, which is a significant advantage, particularly if one is not a careful user (and is also an argument in favor of powered speakers generally, not just subwoofers). But only if it is properly made.

______________
*That is, impossible as long as the protection circuitry is functioning properly.
Nothing is fool-proof :p

Honestly I'd recommend an active sub. It makes life easier I wish my sub had a plate amp instead of a power amp. There is little difference between the two unlike speakers where active has advantages.

It can be foolproof as far as overdriving the woofer is concerned, if it is functioning properly and properly hooked up. That, of course, does not make it foolproof for hooking it up, as some fool might hook up a power cord to the input or some other stupid and foolish thing. Nor does it make it foolproof against someone using it outside in the rain, or probably a dozen or more other stupid things that some fool might do with it.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I need your expert advise on Rear Speakers, Center Speaker, & Subwoofer.
Any other advise is welcome.

My budget is $1500, max $2000.

Thank you !!

Joe
I think the #1 improvement you can make, will be in two or three subwoofers, followed by surround speakers.

In your budget I recommend
two Rythmik FV12 subwoofers: - $1000 on sale right now

one Dayton EMM-6 measurement microphone to measure it with - $50
one XLR female to male cable to use the mic with
One USB Soundcard to power the mic with - ~$80
one mic stand to hold the mic up - $30
one MiniDSP to setup and integrate the subwoofers together optimally in terms of time delay and amplitude balancing - $125
one RCA cable to connect the miniDSP to your receiver


And then eventually you can decide whether you want to add a third sub or not. I would recommend getting a more capable, 15" or 18" as the final sub, in order to let the FV12s drop down to the "fill sub" status and let the world-beater sub handle the really aggressive, deep stuff in movies while the other two just smooth out the response. With the above equipment and careful placement, the integration will be optimal. You should have some money left over for a pair of decent surrounds at that time.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Room is 16ft x 20ft x 10ft high

Speakers:
Klipsch Forte II pair (100+ lbs)
Tannoy System 800 pair
Klipsch TS-10 Active Sub Woofer

Amp:
Acurus A125X5
Yamaha M70
Hafler DH-220

Pre Amp:
Rotel RC-972
Carver C-16

Receiver:
Denon AVR-1010 (Dolby Pro Logic from 1991)
Onkyo TX DS-555 (5.1 channel)

===========================
I have setup in a larger room (20ft x 30ft)

Yamaha M70
Rotel RC-972
Klipsch Forte II

===========================
I want to setup my man-cave audio room (16ft x 20ft x 10ft high)

Tannoy System 800 pair
Acurus Amp to drive Tannoy, rear, & center
Hafler to drive Subwoofer
(or option of using Onkyo Receiver & Hafler, but I rather use Acurus Amp)

I need your expert advise on Rear Speakers, Center Speaker, & Subwoofer.
Any other advise is welcome.

My budget is $1500, max $2000.

Thank you !!

Joe
my 2c is:
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
Front: Ascends CMT-340 SE mains - $568/pr
Center: Ascends CMT-340 SE center - $298.00
Pedestal Stands for CMT-340 -$100/pr
Total speakers shipping: about $120

1x Rythmic FV12 Sub
1x AVR - refub Onkyo TX-SR707 :
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR707/Onkyo-TX-SR707-Thx-Select2-Plus-100-watts-channel-7.2-Receiver/1.html

Total budget: a shy below $2000, but I promise you - i'd love your new HT

Use your existing Tannoy as surrounds, unfortunately it's a bit of shame I can't recommend to use them as mains due to unable to match with proper center - if you could find another identical tannoy speaker - you could use it as a center (if you get pair - use 2nd as back center to 6.1)

Onkyo 707 could drive front's Ascends CMT-340 to very loud levels, but since you already have collection of nice amps - the Yamaha m70 could be used to power the fronts
 
C

coconutjoe

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the advice!!

Wow!!

Thanks for the advice. I haven't looked at audio equipment for a while (20 yrs) and I got a lot of catching up to do.

I got two setup recommendations, one emphasizing Sub Woofers and the other overall HT.

I'll take the latter advice first, then when I can afford it, I'll get some more subs.

I really do like Receiver Onkyo 707, which I will get, and I'll try to find more Tannoys. I love their reproduction of vocals. Maybe, I can try to find Tannoy System 1200 for main, 800 for rear, and hopefully, one more 800 for the center, plus FV12 Sub. If I can't fine more Tannoys, I will definately go with Ascends setup.

Thank you agian,

Joe
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow!!

Thanks for the advice. I haven't looked at audio equipment for a while (20 yrs) and I got a lot of catching up to do.

I got two setup recommendations, one emphasizing Sub Woofers and the other overall HT.

I'll take the latter advice first, then when I can afford it, I'll get some more subs.

I really do like Receiver Onkyo 707, which I will get, and I'll try to find more Tannoys. I love their reproduction of vocals. Maybe, I can try to find Tannoy System 1200 for main, 800 for rear, and hopefully, one more 800 for the center, plus FV12 Sub. If I can't fine more Tannoys, I will definately go with Ascends setup.

Thank you agian,

Joe
I'd strongly rec you to get both AVR and sub now (sub is on sale now)
Rythmic FV12 will properly shame your current Klipsch sub.
If and then you decide to get 2nd sub, getting all the toys mentioned above for better sub integration would help if you have time to learn how to do it :)

Ascends are not on sale, so there is not rush to get them or anything
 
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