Why the Axiom bashing??

[jamie2112]

Again some good responses here.Basically ,if you like the sound of the speakers it shouldn't matter that I don't really like them.Everyones ears are different and hence we will be discussing this till the cows come home regarding speaker sound.We all know what sounds good to us ,so why does it matter what me or anyone else thinks? It doesn't, I am glad you are happy with your purchase and that my friend is ALL that matters ........cheers....

 

[Jasper78]

Double blind or not, it seems to me that Axiom's practice of listening carefully to their own speakers is nothing to ridicule. If they like their own speakers as much -- or more -- than Paradigm's, so what? (What would you expect other companies say? Our speakers sound like butt, have a listen at some Paradigms or B&Ws?) The point of these tests, for them, would be not to find how much they like their own speakers, but to see if and how they can be improved. In the past couple of years, they have made some incremental changes to all their speakers that they feel improves their performance. Good for them.

In general, I don't see any reason to "bash" Axiom. You might disagree with some of their design choices, that's fine. But as far as I can tell, they take a no nonsense attitude to audio equipment and sound reproduction (much like most members of the Audioholics forum), they build good speakers that won't cost you an arm and a leg (that you could always listen to, in your own home, and return if you don't like), and they're always willing to help their customers with questions or complaints. Why not be glad that they're still around and building speakers?

 

[3db]

If it is a truly a DBT why does it matter if they use their staff listeners? Have not been able to figure that out when gene posted that in the past.
Are they more familiar with their own speakers? Is that an issue? Has this been corroborated using other trained listeners, be it at Harman or Axiom or any other place? PBS, they do DBT as well?

PSB does use DBT but none of the listeners are PSB staff. They are people taken at gun point so you know there's no bias. Seriously though, they don't use any staff as listeners at all during the tests so as NOT to influence the outcome of the tests.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The thing that is different from other manufacturers is that Axiom extensively uses the notion of "double-blind" in their marketing on their website, articles and its also regurgitated in about every Axiom speaker review you can read out there. And it's used in a way that there is no speaker that can be hands down better than Axiom speakers if they were listened to blind. They only can be "similarly good". For example there is no way the Axiom M80 can be "similarly good" to the Revel Salon2. The measurements of these speakers just don't bear that out. Not to mention the build quality is night and day between the two speakers.



I think that is the reason why people are more critical of their methodology.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So, in essence, you are equating bias to how well you may or may not remember a component's sonic signature, whether it has one or not. Am I correct?

Yup, if the subject knows exactly how the speaker sounds, that is bias.

So then, anyone, a private citizen or a company person, who may be very familiar with a given speaker in this case should not be a part of a test group? Even if one of the speakers is perhaps much better than the one being familiar with? Or, this is where a company bias may enter the equation as they would favor their speaker no matter what? If so, I can understand it more but still would need validation unless you are comparing unequal quantities, in another word they are so far apart that it gives one away 100% of the time?

Yup, it doesn't matter if the subject is a staff member or not; if the subject knows exactly which speaker is which, it is no longer a "blinded" study.

A DBT means that both the subject and the person giving the test do not know which speaker is which.

Only the person who sets up the test knows which speaker is which, and that person cannot be administering the test.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The thing that is different from other manufacturers is that Axiom extensively uses the notion of "double-blind" in their marketing on their website, articles and its also regurgitated in about every Axiom speaker review you can read out there. And it's used in a way that there is no speaker that can be hands down better than Axiom speakers if they were listened to blind. They only can be "similarly good". For example there is no way the Axiom M80 can be "similarly good" to the Revel Salon2. The measurements of these speakers just don't bear that out. Not to mention the build quality is night and day between the two speakers.

I think that is the reason why people are more critical of their methodology.

I think it's all about the marketing and presentation of the company.

All they need to do is be conservative and treat everyone with respect.

All they need to do is simply give honest measurements of their speakers (on-axis FR, off-axis FR (Polar response), some waterfall graphs if they want to go the extra mile, and let everyone else be the judge.

I don't think anyone will have a problem with them believing that their flagship speakers sound as good as some $8K speakers. Sure, everyone thinks his speakers sound better than others. Just don't mention any names.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I think it's all about the marketing and presentation of the company.

All they need to do is be conservative and treat everyone with respect.

All they need to do is simply give honest measurements of their speakers (on-axis FR, off-axis FR (Polar response), some waterfall graphs if they want to go the extra mile, and let everyone else be the judge.

I don't think anyone will have a problem with them believing that their flagship speakers sound as good as some $8K speakers. Sure, everyone thinks his speakers sound better than others. Just don't mention any names.

That's a good point about the measurements and specifications. That's another thing they market extensively is the ability to take sophisticated measurements over what other companies can perform using an anechoic chamber and hoisting subwoofers on a pole but all they present on the website at best is just a single low resolution, highly smoothed frequency response measurement and impedance graph that tells us nothing. The in-room response and sensitivity ratings I would also take with a grain of salt.

 

[gene]

A Note About Measurements

I highly recommend reading an article I wrote called:

Audio Measurements: the Useful vs the Bogus

This is particularly useful when looking at manufacturer and A/V review websites measurements of products.

 

[mtrycrafts]

A DBT means that both the subject and the person giving the test do not know which speaker is which.

Only the person who sets up the test knows which speaker is which, and that person cannot be administering the test.

Well, not exactly correct. The only thing that matters is which one is presented is unknown, not that one is comparing two known components.
The X in an ABX is unknown. A is known and B is known.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I highly recommend reading an article I wrote called:

Audio Measurements: the Useful vs the Bogus

This is particularly useful when looking at manufacturer and A/V review websites measurements of products.

No questions about that at all, just the DBT stuff, when it is biased, when not and why?
I think Toole used his own trained staff to test speakers and that he used in his peer papers. I hope he knows how to do a proper DBT.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The problems are:
1. Axiom doesn't do DBT's. They at best do SBT's but even that isn't 100% correct since they use their own staff to operate the tests, interpret the results, and even participate in the listening tests.
2. A person intimately familiar with the sound of their speakers can easily pick them out in a blind test. I can do this with 100% confidence with my own reference speakers and I did this at Axiom when they put a pair of M60s in the mix for a blind test I participated in. I spent over 1 month listening to the same speakers prior and I knew the sonic signature of those speakers very well.


I also suggest reading these articles Tom wrote which discusses some of these issues:

Revealing Flaws in the Loudspeaker Demo & DBT

Overview of Audio Testing Methodologies

If they didn't do a proper DBT then it is not a valid test. If you tests you own speakers and favor them, it could be biased I suppose. Then, you would need a different group to compare for evaluation.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The thing that is different from other manufacturers is that Axiom extensively uses the notion of "double-blind" in their marketing on their website, articles and its also regurgitated in about every Axiom speaker review you can read out there. And it's used in a way that there is no speaker that can be hands down better than Axiom speakers if they were listened to blind. They only can be "similarly good". For example there is no way the Axiom M80 can be "similarly good" to the Revel Salon2. The measurements of these speakers just don't bear that out. Not to mention the build quality is night and day between the two speakers.



I think that is the reason why people are more critical of their methodology.

I think it's all about the marketing and presentation of the company.

All they need to do is be conservative and treat everyone with respect.

All they need to do is simply give honest measurements of their speakers (on-axis FR, off-axis FR (Polar response), some waterfall graphs if they want to go the extra mile, and let everyone else be the judge.

I don't think anyone will have a problem with them believing that their flagship speakers sound as good as some $8K speakers. Sure, everyone thinks his speakers sound better than others. Just don't mention any names.

My question was about the conduct of the testing. If it is not adequate, that is one thing. Not disclosing that the test is not really a DBT but SBT is not acceptable.

I suppose they should also disclose that their own listeners favor their speakers over others would be better accepted and is understandable that one would pick their own product as the bias would be clearly there.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, not exactly correct. The only thing that matters is which one is presented is unknown, not that one is comparing two known components.
The X in an ABX is unknown. A is known and B is known.

Are we talking about the same thing?

ABX test does NOT automatically mean DBT.

ABX test doesn't have to be double-blinded. It can be double-blinded. But it doesn't have to be.

We are talking about a true DBT, not a ABX test.

In the pharmaceutical field, I'm involved with DBT of drug trials very often.

The pharmacist mixing or preparing the study drugs is the only one who knows which is which.

The nurse giving the drugs does not know which is which. The patient taking the drugs does not know which is which.

They call it DOUBLE blinded because TWO parties are blinded.

So in a speaker DBT, are you saying that the person giving the test also knows which speaker is which?

 

[gene]

If they didn't do a proper DBT then it is not a valid test. If you tests you own speakers and favor them, it could be biased I suppose. Then, you would need a different group to compare for evaluation.

It's very easy to train a listener to pick out their speakers in a blind test. This IMO severely limits the usefulness of such a test, especially when its an employee who is likely going to favor the companies products they work for.

The problem with these tests is they often lead to false conclusions. They are however a great marketing tactic in trying to convince people into believing their speakers in a worst case scenario will be "similarly good" to the most expensive and most elaborate competitors. They simply can NEVER lose in their own "Blind" test run by their own staff and participants. Ever notice how most companies running these tests all make the same claims?

One particular company claims above $1500/pair a better sounding speaker simply cannot be built. If that was true than how could a $5k/pair floorstanding speakers ever be better their the same brands $2k/pair speakers? And why do other companies that run blind tests even bother to make $20k/pair speakers when their $2k/pair should score "similarly good"? I am sure anyone who has heard a pair of Revel Salon 2's knows the speaker is superior in every way to a pair of $2k JBLs. Note these speakers are all made by the same manufacturer whom adheres to a true DBT protocol. Seems like a paradox to me....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are we talking about the same thing?

ABX test does NOT automatically mean DBT.

ABX test doesn't have to be double-blinded. It can be double-blinded. But it doesn't have to be.

We are talking about a true DBT, not a ABX test.

In the pharmaceutical field, I'm involved with DBT of drug trials very often.

The pharmacist mixing or preparing the study drugs is the only one who knows which is which.

The nurse giving the drugs does not know which is which. The patient taking the drugs does not know which is which.

They call it DOUBLE blinded because TWO parties are blinded.

So in a speaker DBT, are you saying that the person giving the test also knows which speaker is which?

ABX is a form of DBT most certainly. The X is hidden from all parties. You cannot have a sighted ABX, as it would be just an sighted test.
After all, you are looking for difference or sameness, not which one you like more or less. ABX would be appropriate if you want to know if there is an audible difference between A and B. Speakers can be both a difference and a preference unbiased by name of the speaker, its looks, etc.

In drug trial you want to know which works or doesn't work in the end, not if there is a difference in the medicine you are taking. It is a different DBT. Lots of different DBTs out there. Harman and Toole used to use something called ABC/hr or something. That is a form of DBT.

Speaker testing can also be ABX, computer controlled. Actually in the Harman testing by Toole, someone sets up the speakers on a turntable, connects them to a computer and the listener enters the room and runs the computer. The listener doesn't know and most likely is not in contact with whoever set it up otherwise it is not a DBT. No need for anyone else to be involved, no nurse to run the computer for you

This may have an explanation what is done at Harman. He and Toole have worked together for decades from the beginning of the CAnadaian NRC into speakers.
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=5

That bar graph on the opening page, speaker P and I may be tough to differentiate

 

[kickerofelves]

Axioms speakers are still the same thing they were when everyone loved them and they still sound the same its just that the bandwagon has moved in another direction and everyone is just along for the ride with the freakin thing.

No kidding. Maybe what--a year or two ago--they were written about as one of the best things going at their price point. One online review said the M80s were comparable in some ways to my beloved (and generally well-liked) ACI Sapphires. This year the peasants are at the gate with pitchforks and torches ready to burn them. I'm left scratching my head wondering what the hell is going on.

 

[Alex2507]

Quite frankly I used to be addicted to audio forums but the more time i spent on them ...

... the more I noticed that I was surrounded by geeky people who were all worried about how sound reflects off a ceiling for Pete's sake and after a while I wasn't getting laid at all ... I mean like never. Well, that sh!t had to end so I quit going to these forums but the part about not getting laid didn't change so I started up again.

~ Anonymous

ps ... I have to walk my dog right after I buy some underwear on Amazon.

 

[Adam]

...after I buy some underwear on Amazon.

What can I say - they're comfortable.

 

[Alex2507]

What can I say - they're comfortable.

Did Doug help you DBT that?

 

[GranteedEV]

I am sure anyone who has heard a pair of Revel Salon 2's knows the speaker is superior in every way to a pair of $2k JBLs.

I find that kind of interesting to ponder, because I recall sean olive saying that the Harman test reference room, doesn't use revel salons OR jbl everests. They use 3X JBL LSR 6332, which would be around 4.5k per trio and is their top of the line studio monitor.

Id love to hear his thought on the matter.