Why the Axiom bashing??

[u2generator]

I use M-22's, VP 150 and QS-8's for HT. I have also used M-22's for my stereo. In fact, I am probably going to replace my JBL-L830's with M-22's, or the next smaller speaker, for more stereo.

I have no issues with these speakers. In fact, due to building a new house and adding some speaker cables for 7.1, I am going back with new M-22's, and QS-8's.

Other than some hearing loss in the upper registers, what am I missing?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why the Def Tech bashing?

Why the Axiom bashing?

Why the Def Tech bashing?

Why the bashing of any company?

Credibility.

That's what.

Axiom recommends using 2 center speakers, when everyone else dissuade against it because of comb filtering effect. Axiom say they do double-blinded testing, but use only their own staff as subjects! Just a couple of examples. I'm sure others have more example.

But if you look at the M80 measurements, these speakers look pretty very good:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m80v2/

I'm not surprised they sound good.

But company reputation and credibility is the issue.

Same with Def Tech. They sound great to me. They sound great to a lot of people. But the company lies about frequency response.

Credibility goes out the window.

 

[GranteedEV]

I use M-22's, VP 150 and QS-8's for HT. I have also used M-22's for my stereo. In fact, I am probably going to replace my JBL-L830's with M-22's, or the next smaller speaker, for more stereo.

I have no issues with these speakers. In fact, due to building a new house and adding some speaker cables for 7.1, I am going back with new M-22's, and QS-8's.

Other than some hearing loss in the upper registers, what am I missing?

-Axiom thinks their $1400 M-80s are similarily good to $8000 Paradigm Signature S8s

They are a company with a **** ton of advertising and not much measured proven performance to back it up.

They have some dubious claims like "speaker cabinets don't need much bracing" and "two tweeters is better than one"

Some of their speakers don't use an inductor on the midrange drivers, leading to audible metal cone breakup.

Some of their seemingly 3-way speakers don't use a capacitor on the midrange drivers, leading to low tones overdriving the woofer to the point of audible distortion. It also means very low impedance at low frequencies, to a point where amplifiers have been driven to shutdown by axiom speakers.

They think you need a 90 foot high tower to measure a subwoofer.

Essentially, Axiom is dubious at best. You'd be better off taking your business to a company like Ascend, EMPTek, Infinity, KEF, Pioneer, or Aperion.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Axiom say they do double-blinded testing, but use only their own staff as subjects! ...

If it is a truly a DBT why does it matter if they use their staff listeners? Have not been able to figure that out when gene posted that in the past.
Are they more familiar with their own speakers? Is that an issue? Has this been corroborated using other trained listeners, be it at Harman or Axiom or any other place? PBS, they do DBT as well?

 

[MinusTheBear]

Much, if not all the controversy surrounding Axiom speakers can be found in this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1337283

If your happy with them, that is all that matters. Over the past decade I believe they are some better built, looking and sounding speakers over comparable Axiom models. However, Axioms customer service is still to this day one of the best.

 

[cpp]

Come to think of it, anything audio is subjective in that your wallet, your ears and your surroundings pretty much dictate what you purchase, good or bad and nobody's wallets, ears or surroundings are the same. Bashing a product by a person without that person having used or actually tested the product to me their comments are just nonexistent and only merit a WTF. Hearsay from what they read or heard is at times totally bull and often misdirects a person from a smart audio choice that fits their budget, their ears and their surroundings. So I take bashing with a singular grain of salt.

 

[jamie2112]

Why the bashing???? Cause they lie about their specs and.....biggest reason is the SOUND LIKE BUTT.............ok rant over!!!!

 

[billy p]

I use M-22's, VP 150 and QS-8's for HT. I have also used M-22's for my stereo. In fact, I am probably going to replace my JBL-L830's with M-22's, or the next smaller speaker, for more stereo.

I have no issues with these speakers. In fact, due to building a new house and adding some speaker cables for 7.1, I am going back with new M-22's, and QS-8's.

Other than some hearing loss in the upper registers, what am I missing?

Short answer....nothing! Most of the "nay" sayers you find on various forums haven't even heard Axioms speakers but feel compelled to make some comment based on what they've read. As was mentioned by another member within Axiom's price points you could find better speakers since not has not changed over time, but subjectively speaking Axioms really...don't sound like BUTT....

 

[Alex2507]

Axioms really...don't sound like BUTT....

That's unfortunate. Consider the sounds this butt could make ...

 

[Haoleb]

Quite frankly, The less you value the input of other people on forums the better off your going to be when it comes to what you buy. Just as long as you get out and do your own research and shopping around.

Spend enough time on forums and you'll notice everyone just reccomends everything they want or own and its always the same people beating the same dead horse and every average joe is a self proclaimed expert. I used to be addicted to audio forums but the more time i spent on them and the more experienced I became in the field the more I noticed the amount of BS and... grew tired of it.

So yeah, anyway.. to answer your questions its because everyone's just found something else to rave about. Axioms speakers are still the same thing they were when everyone loved them and they still sound the same its just that the bandwagon has moved in another direction and everyone is just along for the ride with the freakin thing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If it is a truly a DBT why does it matter if they use their staff listeners? Have not been able to figure that out when gene posted that in the past.
Are they more familiar with their own speakers? Is that an issue? Has this been corroborated using other trained listeners, be it at Harman or Axiom or any other place? PBS, they do DBT as well?

I think the point is that it is NOT a true DBT.

But I come from a pharmaceutical background, so I think all true DBT are the similar.

In a true DBT, you have to select various populations and select enough subjects to make a statistical significant difference. You do not select 10 of your own designers/engineers and call it a true DBT.

For example, they know exactly what kind of bass response their Axiom speakers can do.

And they know exactly what kind of bass response the Paradigm or other speakers can do.

So now they know which speakers are the Axiom and which are the Paradigm. Of course, they will pick their own Axiom as the favorite every time.

If I were to compare my Infinity P362 against the B&W 804D, I bet I can tell the difference. And so I bet I can pick the Infinity 362 over the 804D every time in a so-called DBT.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think the point is that it is NOT a true DBT.

But I come from a pharmaceutical background, so I think all true DBT are the similar.

In a true DBT, you have to select various populations and select enough subjects to make a statistical significant difference. You do not select 10 of your own designers/engineers and call it a true DBT.

For example, they know exactly what kind of bass response their Axiom speakers can do.

And they know exactly what kind of bass response the Paradigm or other speakers can do.

So now they know which speakers are the Axiom and which are the Paradigm. Of course, they will pick their own Axiom as the favorite every time.

If I were to compare my Infinity P362 against the B&W 804D, I bet I can tell the difference. And so I bet I can pick the Infinity 362 over the 804D every time in a so-called DBT.

So then, this reasoning only applies to speaker DBT? If so, because speakers are so different? If not, does it apply to amp DBT?

I still want to see some credible evidence that any company trained listener is better at identifying their own speaker line, or a single speaker, than an unrelated trained group would be. I am just not yet convinced that those company listeners and their memory are that good under proper DBT conditions. But, I can be convinced with such evidence.

If it not a real DBT, then that is totally a different issue and not part of the discussion as it would not count in the first place.

As to comparison of audio DBT to Pharma types, if the statistics as strong enough, what is the issue? After all, it is a combination of listeners and the number of trials that gives you the stats. If the audio DBt is not accepted, then all the previous research is invalid. Has to be.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So then, this reasoning only applies to speaker DBT? If so, because speakers are so different? If not, does it apply to amp DBT?

I still want to see some credible evidence that any company trained listener is better at identifying their own speaker line, or a single speaker, than an unrelated trained group would be. I am just not yet convinced that those company listeners and their memory are that good under proper DBT conditions. But, I can be convinced with such evidence.

If it not a real DBT, then that is totally a different issue and not part of the discussion as it would not count in the first place.

As to comparison of audio DBT to Pharma types, if the statistics as strong enough, what is the issue? After all, it is a combination of listeners and the number of trials that gives you the stats. If the audio DBt is not accepted, then all the previous research is invalid. Has to be.

I think removing Bias is a key.

If you can remove bias from the study, then it does not matter if they are staff members or not.

I don't see bias in Amp DBT since I can't tell the difference.

I think it's okay to use anyone, staff or not, for amp testing.

But I can usually tell the difference in bass responses among speakers - not all of them, but most of them.

Couldn't you pick out the speaker "A" that goes down to 35Hz @ -3dB vs. speaker "B" that can only go down to 50Hz @ -3db?

Even if you prefer the midrange/HF and overall sound of speaker "B", you could still "favor" speaker "A" if you want to every time.

I own the Linkwitz Orion, KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, & Infinity P362.

In full range mode (Pure Direct 2.0), bias will be present because I could tell the difference in bass response of all of them.

Well, I could tell the difference between the P362s vs. the other 3 no matter what.

But in 2.1 stereo mode, all crossover set to 80Hz, I would have a hard time telling the difference among the KEF, Revel, and Linkwitz speakers-- I think because most of the bias (bass) has been removed.

But a lot of people say they can tell the difference in midrange and HF of all speakers. They say they can pick out their speakers. If this is the case, then bias is always there.

So, in conclusion, I think if we remove the bias from the equation (play in 2.1 stereo mode, crossover to 80Hz, etc.), then it does NOT matter whether they use their own staff.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think removing Bias is a key.

If you can remove bias from the study, then it does not matter if they are staff members or not.

I don't see bias in Amp DBT since I can't tell the difference.

I think it's okay to use anyone, staff or not, for amp testing.

But I can usually tell the difference in bass responses among speakers - not all of them, but most of them.

Couldn't you pick out the speaker "A" that goes down to 35Hz @ -3dB vs. speaker "B" that can only go down to 50Hz @ -3db?

Even if you prefer the midrange/HF and overall sound of speaker "B", you could still "favor" speaker "A" if you want to every time.

I own the Linkwitz Orion, KEF 201/2, Revel Salon2, & Infinity P362.

In full range mode (Pure Direct 2.0), bias will be present because I could tell the difference in bass response of all of them.

Well, I could tell the difference between the P362s vs. the other 3 no matter what.

But in 2.1 stereo mode, all crossover set to 80Hz, I would have a hard time telling the difference among the KEF, Revel, and Linkwitz speakers-- I think because most of the bias (bass) has been removed.

But a lot of people say they can tell the difference in midrange and HF of all speakers. They say they can pick out their speakers. If this is the case, then bias is always there.

So, in conclusion, I think if we remove the bias from the equation (play in 2.1 stereo mode, crossover to 80Hz, etc.), then it does NOT matter whether they use their own staff.

Thanks for all your responses so far

So, in essence, you are equating bias to how well you may or may not remember a component's sonic signature, whether it has one or not. Am I correct?

So then, anyone, a private citizen or a company person, who may be very familiar with a given speaker in this case should not be a part of a test group? Even if one of the speakers is perhaps much better than the one being familiar with? Or, this is where a company bias may enter the equation as they would favor their speaker no matter what? If so, I can understand it more but still would need validation unless you are comparing unequal quantities, in another word they are so far apart that it gives one away 100% of the time?

 

[u2generator]

Thank you good folks for all the responses.
I think I actually feel better about my purchase.
It has also given me some "food for thought" for future purchases.

TW

 

[Stereoguy]

Hi: I currently own Axiom m-60's and their VP-150 and after owning PSB,and Mirage speakers IMO the axiom's are very good sounding speakers period. In fact better than the other speakers I've owned,but as already stated everyone has their own preferences! I've also been up to the Axiom factory and had a complete tour of the factory (Twice in fact!!) They have built their own chamber(Forget the proper name sorry)to test speakers. I would feel very comfortable with your purchase just enjoy the speakers!!

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... They have built their own chamber(Forget the proper name sorry)to test speakers. ..

Here, let me help you out with that tidbit It is called an Anechoic chamber
Yes, it is hard to remember especially if you don't use it now and then.

 

[Stereoguy]

Here, let me help you out with that tidbit It is called an Anechoic chamber
Yes, it is hard to remember especially if you don't use it now and then.

Thanks must have been thinking about "Timbits" instead of "tidbits" LOL

 

[MinusTheBear]

Despite a lot of the criticisms of some of their decade old designs spanning from the early 2000's, most people don't know but they recently hired one of the top Mirage (API) engineers. IMO this was a really good hire with superb experience in speaker design spanning the Energy and more importantly the Mirage OMD line. In the past their R&D department was in electronics experience and hence the class-d speaker and subwoofer amps.

I would be confident in a higher end aspiration designed by Andrew Welker that it would be very good.

 

[gene]

If it is a truly a DBT why does it matter if they use their staff listeners? Have not been able to figure that out when gene posted that in the past.
Are they more familiar with their own speakers? Is that an issue? Has this been corroborated using other trained listeners, be it at Harman or Axiom or any other place? PBS, they do DBT as well?

The problems are:
1. Axiom doesn't do DBT's. They at best do SBT's but even that isn't 100% correct since they use their own staff to operate the tests, interpret the results, and even participate in the listening tests.
2. A person intimately familiar with the sound of their speakers can easily pick them out in a blind test. I can do this with 100% confidence with my own reference speakers and I did this at Axiom when they put a pair of M60s in the mix for a blind test I participated in. I spent over 1 month listening to the same speakers prior and I knew the sonic signature of those speakers very well.


I also suggest reading these articles Tom wrote which discusses some of these issues:

Revealing Flaws in the Loudspeaker Demo & DBT

Overview of Audio Testing Methodologies