Need helps picking a subwoofer for room 13x14

[sumasage]

Wow the SVSound SBS-02 & SCS-02 Center price are very tempting. You said the set you suggested have head room when move into larger room, does this mean i can use the SVD SBS-02 as surround speakers if i buy a pair of tower speakers?

After measuring my room the eD sub is a bit long but not too bad, it just stick out about 5 inches in front of my TV stand. Is it possible to place the sub standing up (open port pointing to the ceiling)?? Common sense tell it it should be place that way but just in case i'm wrong lol.


Also any feedback on those Klipsch and KEF speakers set i posted above?

 

[shadyJ]

The SVS speakers will not be big on headroom, with their 82 db sensitivity. They are only suitable for a small room. A better alternative would be the Infinity Primus p162, which have a 90 db sensitivity. This is almost 3 times more powerful, without sacrificing any sound quality. The Primus series are very highly regarded budget speakers, and they are a bit cheaper than the SVS. The Primus C350 center is also a terrific center. Another good speaker is the Hsu HB-1, but it is slightly more expensive than the SVS SB speakers. It also is quite a bit more powerful than those, and they have terrific bass for bookshelf speakers, better than the Primus. It's matching center is a killer also. I don't think the SVS speakers would be bad, but I would go for the Hsu or Primus speakers long before I would go for the SVS speakers. Another terrific and inexpensive bookshelf speaker would be the Behringer 2030p, although it doesn't come with a matching center speaker. You would have to use a single 2030p as a center (which would be the best for all of these setups anyway). The 2030p is a thoroughly measured and very highly regarded speaker, widely considered one of the best for the money. I think these would be superior to the SVS also.

 

[sumasage]

I noticed that you guys are suggesting all book shelf speakers. Any reason for no floor standing speakers? I think floor standing will have better head room when i move into larger room.

 

[shadyJ]

There isn't any real advantage to floorstanders if you have a good sub or two (two really). Floorstanders' advantage over bookshelfs happens mostly at 80 hz and below, but that is where you typically cross-over your sub, so the floorstander's advantage is negated. This is, of course, true only for bookshelf speakers that can reach down to 80 hz with no problem. Most bookshelf speakers with 6.5" woofers are able to do this. Satellite speakers and smaller bookshelf speakers can't dig this low. One advantage of floorstanders is that you do have the ability to cross over the sub lower if you like, some people prefer a lower crossover than 80 hz.

By the way, you can place the ED standing up without a problem as long as the port isn't covered.

 

[GranteedEV]

I noticed that you guys are suggesting all book shelf speakers. Any reason for no floor standing speakers? I think floor standing will have better head room when i move into larger room.

Because your budget's too small.

Trust me, I'd love to just recommend you a pair of these

and be done with it.

But you need to open up that good ol thing called a budget. Floorstanders, and 3-ways, cost significantly more money to make well, so you need to shell out that money. Just the crossover component and driver cost alone for a 3-way will generally double the parts cost of a 2-way. Throw in much more complex cabinet construction and you're now talking triple or quadruple. And none of that factors in whether the 3-way will even sound as good as the 2-way at the end of it all. The more crossovers you add to a speaker, the more potential for negative side effects you open up.

For example:

Salk HT1 2-way, 2-driver Bookshelf: $2700
Salk HT1 2-way, 2-driver Tower: $3200

So above we see, that all things else the same (crossover, drivers), just the cabinet alone marked up the price of that particular speaker by about 18% for a tower. And that will not have more headroom, only perhaps better extension (45hz vs 34hz as the -3db points)

Then throw in a woofer, a crossover, and the consequential larger cabinet for that woofer....keeping the tweeter and mid the same.

Salk HT3 3-way $6000

So now we've raised the price from the original bookshelf, by 120%.

 

[Adam]

Trust me, I'd love to just recommend you a pair of these

I think I need a cigarette...

 

[GranteedEV]

There isn't any real advantage to floorstanders if you have a good sub or two (two really). Floorstanders' advantage over bookshelfs happens mostly at 80 hz and below,

I disagree. The advantage is as high up as ~400hz for a *quality 3-way with dedicated woofers and well build cabinets. It's all about clean, undistorted output down to the crossover point, if you even choose to use a crossover (some prefer to use high output sealed speakers and blend them to multi subwoofers 2nd order acoustically, often leading to five apparant bass sources in the midbass, which can lead to very flat response). Big speakers might be underutilized in a small room of course.

 

[shadyJ]

I disagree. The advantage is as high up as ~400hz for a *quality 3-way with dedicated woofers and well build cabinets. It's all about clean, undistorted output down to the crossover point, if you even choose to use a crossover (some prefer to use high output sealed speakers and blend them to multi subwoofers 2nd order acoustically, often leading to five apparant bass sources in the midbass, which can lead to very flat response). Big speakers might be underutilized in a small room of course.

This is true, but, like you said above, a good three way tower looks like it is above his budget. The only one I would recommend to him is the Infinity Primus p362. The EMP E5Ti towers look pretty decent as well, although I haven't heard them. The only other highly regarded three way towers I know of are pretty pricey.

 

[FirstReflection]

Wow the SVSound SBS-02 & SCS-02 Center price are very tempting. You said the set you suggested have head room when move into larger room, does this mean i can use the SVD SBS-02 as surround speakers if i buy a pair of tower speakers?

After measuring my room the eD sub is a bit long but not too bad, it just stick out about 5 inches in front of my TV stand. Is it possible to place the sub standing up (open port pointing to the ceiling)?? Common sense tell it it should be place that way but just in case i'm wrong lol.


Also any feedback on those Klipsch and KEF speakers set i posted above?

In regards to what shadj said about the SBS-02's rather low 82dB sensitivity spec and how that might limit their headroom (available additional output... ie. loudness), all I can say is that SVSound seems to be posting extremely conservative ratings on their site. Numbers on a spec sheet don't tell the full story and with no actual industry standard for specs, it's really easy to fudge the numbers and basically make them look like whatever you want.

What I do know for sure is that having actually listened to the SBS-02 speakers, they can accept quite a lot of power and play very loud for their size without distortion. To me, that means they have good headroom and can function just fine in a medium-sized room as well as a small-room, where, once again, their sealed design works particularly well.

One other "spec bonus" of the SBS-02 speakers is that they have a minimum impedance of 7.5 ohms. No dips down to the THX acceptable limit of 3.2 ohms, not even any dips down to 4 ohms as most speakers have. The impedance remains very close to the 8 ohm nominal impedance rating, which makes them a very easy load on any amplifier and, once again, highly suitable to small rooms and less expensive receivers.

The SCS-02 center is quite large - larger than you might expect. It's only 4 inches shy of being 2 feet across! It's no small center and it can certainly handle a medium-sized room. I wouldn't want to try and get reference volume out of it in a large room, but in a medium-sized room, and obviously also in a small room, the SCS-02 center provides ample output.

Moving the SBS-02 bookshelf speakers to surround duty and using towers up front in the future would be no problem. Although, if you're still using the SCS-02 center, you're going to want to make sure that whatever towers you get are a really good timbral match to the SCS-02. I personally hate nothing more in audio than when a sound pans across the front three speakers, and you can easily tell when it goes from the left speaker to the center to the right speaker (or vice versa) because the timbre of the sound changes as it moves from the L or R speaker to the center. I demand a perfectly seemless match across the front 3 speakers myself. Thankfully, the SCS-02 is a very neutral speaker, which means that you only need look for very neutral towers The other really good option in a larger room though would be to use the SVSound SCS-02M speakers - which basically look like the SCS-02 center standing upright. That makes them really tall bookshelf speakers, but still quite a bit smaller than a tower speaker.

I'm not actually a huge fan of tower speakers myself. Your essentially paying for more bass extension in the speaker, which I personally feel is better handled with subwoofers. What I look for is a seemless blend and handoff from the speakers to the subwoofers. Your receiver is applying a 24dB/octave roll-off to the high end of your subwoofer, but only a 12dB roll-off to the bottom end of your speakers. The design is meant to work with speakers that have their own, natural 12dB/octave roll-off at the bottom end. And thus, when you combine the receiver's applied 12dB/octave roll-off with the supposed natural 12dB/octave roll-off of the speakers, you get a 24dB/octave roll-off on the bottom of the speakers that perfectly dovetails into the roll-off of the high end of the subwoofers.

But in reality, that's not how most people set up their speaker-to-subwoofer cross-over. Most people just pick a frequency - often 10Hz above the supposed -3dB point of the speakers - and pretty much leave things that way. With a tower speaker that plays quite a bit lower than the 70-90Hz range, what you'll often end up with is a subtle 3dB or maybe 6dB "hump" in the mid-bass where the speakers aren't rolling off as much as is intended in the cross-over. This delivers the characteristic "fuller" sound that so many people tout as an advantage of tower speakers over bookshelf speakers, but all I hear is a "hump" in the mid-bass that isn't actually supposed to be there!

Anywho, enough about speakers for the moment. I really like the SVSound S-Series speakers for this price range and room size, so that's my recommendation, but it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't other good choices because there most certainly are! But I think that the SVSound speakers work particularly well in this case for all the reasons that I've already talked about

In regards to the eD A2-250 sub - unfortunately, you cannot stand it upright. One end has the port - which you obviously cannot sit on the floor. And the opposite end has the amp, which also should not sit on the floor and would be extremly unstable since it has speaker binding posts and the power cord coming out of it! The A2-250 has its driver on its bottom, firing down towards the floor with spike feet that hold the bottom surface at the correct height off the floor, and that's really the only way that you can orient it, I'm afraid

As to the Klipsch and KEF speakers: I haven't heard those KEF speakers for myself, so I really cannot say. The Klipsch speakers have a definite "character" to them. I would not call them neutral. They have a distinct sound that some people love and some people hate. They are definitely speakers that I would want anyone to audition - at home - before committing to a purchase. You might love them, but you also might hate them, and I wouldn't use them as a point of reference for accuracy because they definitely "color" the sound with their own "take" on the signal. Not my cup of tea. But they might be yours...

 

[sumasage]

Ok i'm ready to order. I will get the eD sub and the SVSound book shell and center suggested. One thing for future reference - what specs should i look at that would indicate a "neutral" speaker?

Also since i got a few experts here - what specs of wires should i be looking at for the system? will this work? http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-RSW16100-Gauge-Quality-Speaker/dp/B0007DBBJO

 

[GranteedEV]

Ok i'm ready to order. I will get the eD sub and the SVSound book shell and center suggested. One thing for future reference - what specs should i look at that would indicate a "neutral" speaker?

Also since i got a few experts here - what specs of wires should i be looking at for the system? will this work? http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-RSW16100-Gauge-Quality-Speaker/dp/B0007DBBJO

Did you not read the reviews XD?

Anyways I would not get the SVS center. It's a horizontal MTM and will likely just be a waste of money IMO.

I also suspect the infinity will outperform the ED though I can not say this definitively.

 

[FirstReflection]

Are you serious, GranteedEV? You're going to dismiss a speaker because it has two woofers on either side of a tweeter that you haven't even heard for yourself? Sorry, but I respect you too much to expect that kind of comment from you. The SCS-02 isn't even a horizontal D'Appolito-looking design. It's a raised tweeter.

Anywho, the REAL news here is:

CONGRATS to sumasage!

I think you're going to love your new movie sound system and I'll certainly be eager to read your impressions and review once your new gear arrives!

To answer your other question. The basis of a "neutral" speaker is a flat frequency response and a very even off-axis response that isn't necessarily flat, but it has a very gradual and even slope to it.

That said, I'm not of the mind that a frequency response measurement can tell the full story. There are speakers that can produce a pretty flat-looking frequency response graph, but they still do not SOUND "neutral" to the ear.

That anomoly comes from other factors in the speaker's performance such as transient response, decay times, distortion and harmonic response. These types of things don't really show up on a graph - at least not the common graphs that we mostly see in reviews. These factors CAN be measured though, they just aren't nearly as easy to understand as a pretty graph that either looks flat or doesn't

You can't really just look at a spec sheet or a frequency response graph to tell if a speaker is neutral and transparent or not. These days, they ALL claim to have flat frequency response and great imaging and great off-axis response, etc., etc. So, like most things in audio, it does eventually boil down to actual listening.

Personally, I tend to fall back on comparison. I've got my friend's mixing studio, in which he uses Focal SM11 Monitors and it's the most revealing sound system I have ever heard! It is the ONLY system I have ever personally heard where he can make 0.5dB changes and I can genuinely pick them out. It's a remarkable level of clarity and it sits as a "high water" mark for me, but the $7,600 per speaker price kinda keeps it out of reach

His old setup were the Focal Twin6 Monitors and I strongly considered going with the Solo6 Monitors from the same series. My room is small though (12' x 14' x 7.5' ) and my setup necessitated placing the speakers quite close to the front wall.

I wound up going with the Focal CMS65 speakers up front with CMS50 surrounds. And while they do not have that ultimate level of resolution that the SM11 offer, they carry through that same sort of revealing, extremely neutral performance and they're actually a bit "easier" to listen to because not every utterly minute detail is laid quite so bare the way those flaws are with the SM11.

For portable purposes, I use Shure SE530 in-ear monitors and they maintain much of the same neutrality and resolution. I actually use the SE530 as somewhat of a reference for bass clarity and delineation. Being small, in-ear monitors, the SE530 obviously cannot deliver the physical sensation that comes along with a great subwoofer. But in terms of actually hearing each individual bass note and all the subtle texture to each bass note, it's almost impossible to recreate that same detail in the bass in a room because the room's acoustics always blur a little bit of that ultimate clarity.

So when I'm listening to other speakers, I can't help but draw comparisons. I search to hear if I can spot any details that my own speakers do not reveal. So far, that really hasn't happened. It's mostly the other way around, where my own speakers and in-ears reveal more details that other speakers miss. And nothing compares to my friend's SM11

But it's not all about just raw details and tiny revelations. I also just listen to the overall tone and quality of the sound. When I say that I like the inexpensive SVSound S-02 Series speakers, it is NOT because they are the equal of my own CMS65 or the SE530 in-ears. They are not. But at $299 for a pair vs. $800 each for the CMS65 or $400 for the SE530, I hardly expect the same resolution and detail! That would put my purchase decisions to shame

What I like about the SVSound S-02 speakers is that they don't reveal all the same tiny details, but they keep the same sort of overall "balance" and tone to the sound. Things do not "stick out" as they sometimes do with other speakers, such as the Klipsch speakers that you were considering. It's the same sort of sound quality as my "references", just a little more "muffled" in the finer details.

Where I thought the SVSound S-02 were especially a good choice for you, sumasage, is that they worked very well in my small room. As I said, when I have my speakers actually placed for everyday listening, I have to position them quite close to the front wall. That's a problem for a lot of speakers, and when I'm just evaluating a speaker that I won't be keeping and listening to every day, I'll position them further out into the room to get them away from the walls. But the S-02 worked well when placed close to the wall and they presented one of the most seemless and easiest blends with my subwoofers.

So that's where I'm coming from with my recommendation. And I think it is far too general a statement to say that any speaker with a tweeter that has a woofer on either side of it is automatically a "waste of money". That would exclude one of my favorite center speakers, which is the Ascend CMT-340SE, which isn't even a raised tweeter design, but it outperforms a lot of other center speakers out there.

Ascend is another great example of very neutral speakers, very much like good studio monitors. The CBM-170SE basically ARE studio monitors and could easily perform in that capacity. The tweeter used in the SE models is just fantastic for the price point. A real star in my book. And if you'd had a little more room space and a higher budget, I probably would have recommended the Ascend speakers to you

 

[FirstReflection]

By the way, you sadly won't find many pro reviews of the SVSound S-02 series speakers. It's actually a bit odd, but it seems as though quite a few outlets reviews the -01 models and never updated when the improved -02 series came out.

But I did come across this review in Electronic House and it would seem from the writing that the reviewer heard much the same performance as I did.

Neutral sound, easy seemless blend with a good subwoofer, ideal for a small room and great for home theater. Sound like familiar comments?

I am a bit sad to see that SVSound (under their new ownership) doesn't seem to be selling the STS-02 tower anymore. It was a nice option to have for a larger room. The plan for a larger room now would be to just go with the SCS-02M speakers, like I mentioned earlier. But those STS-02 towers were a cool option to have while they were around

 

[FirstReflection]

Heh, sorry, I forgot all about the speaker wire question!

16 gauge wire is probably fine since you have a small room and thus, fairly short runs. I'll typically just suggest that you go to monoprice.com for all of your cable, wire and accessory needs. The prices are so cheap there and they pretty much have everything you could need. One item to think about that most people overlook are some short IEC power cords for any devices that have a removeable IEC power plug. I've always found that the power cords make more of a spaghetti mess in the back than all the other types of cords and wires, so I love using 3, 2 or 1 foot power cords from monoprice! Cleans it all right up!

Anywho, most of the time, for small or medium-sized rooms, I just play it "safe" and go with 14 gauge speaker wire from monoprice. It's just that little bit thicker - makes me feel "safer" although I seriously doubt there'd be any difference at all with 16 gauge

When I want things to look a little prettier, I go with Axiom Audio's 12 gauge bulk speaker wire

Monoprice offers clear or white-jacket speaker wire, but sometimes, I want black-jacket speaker wire, which is oddly far more difficult to find than you would think! Axiom's wire is SUPER flexible and really stays nicely where you place it, so it's a joy to work with. The 12 gauge thickness makes it great for even long runs, but the $1/foot price means that it costs WAY more than the monoprice wire.

So yeah, just head on over the monoprice and grab all of the cables and wires that you need. Monoprice also sells GREAT Banana and pin-type speaker wire plugs for next to nothing, so those are nice to have if your receiver can accept banana plugs. I'd just go with the 14 gauge monoprice speaker wire since the difference in price is so small.

And in case there's any confusion, all you need for hooking up your subwoofer is one of these . I know some folks out there still don't realize that any RCA cable can do any RCA plug's job, whether it's labelled "composite video", "analogue audio", "component video", "Digital Coax" or "subwoofer cable". They're all the same cable and plug! Just different color coding. I've actually known people who went out and bought new component video cables because they didn't think they could use the "yellow, red, white" cables that they already had

 

[jonnythan]

And in case there's any confusion, all you need for hooking up your subwoofer is one of these . I know some folks out there still don't realize that any RCA cable can do any RCA plug's job, whether it's labelled "composite video", "analogue audio", "component video", "Digital Coax" or "subwoofer cable". They're all the same cable and plug! Just different color coding. I've actually known people who went out and bought new component video cables because they didn't think they could use the "yellow, red, white" cables that they already had

They're actually not. A lot of audio RCA cables aren't very good for video, as they don't have the right impedance. Video or digital coax can be used for audio just fine, but the reverse isn't always true.

 

[gmichael]

There may be better subs available, but that Infinity is a fairly nice one. I have that model in my bedroom and it does a fine job in a 14x17x9 room.
For refference, I have an 18" DIY seald sub in the main room (28x26x9) driven by a 4000w pro amp, EQ'd by a BFD.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They're actually not. A lot of audio RCA cables aren't very good for video, as they don't have the right impedance. Video or digital coax can be used for audio just fine, but the reverse isn't always true.

Yeah, I only use high-end video cable or digital coaxial cables for RCA audio.

I use all Acoustic Research Master Series cables for my analog audio. These are nice:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00008VSK1/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&qid=1313593155&sr=8-1&condition=new

For $16.50 shipped, you get 3 cables, so that comes to $5.50 each. These are very high-quality cables.

For 3ft cables, get these for $10 + shipping ($9?):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MS290/ACOUSTIC-RESEARCH-Ms290-Master-Series-Component-Video-Cable-3-Ft/1.html

They are component "video" cables, but they work fantastic for audio.

All the Acoustic Research Master Series have locking RCA connectors, which is totally awesome.

 

[GranteedEV]

Are you serious, GranteedEV? You're going to dismiss a speaker because it has two woofers on either side of a tweeter that you haven't even heard for yourself? Sorry, but I respect you too much to expect that kind of comment from you. The SCS-02 isn't even a horizontal D'Appolito-looking design. It's a raised tweeter.

I am going to dismiss it. It is absolutely a problem. You alluded to it later yourself:

The basis of a "neutral" speaker is a flat frequency response and a very even off-axis response that isn't necessarily flat, but it has a very gradual and even slope to it.

Raising the tweeter will not do anything to help. That is just an offset to reduce diffraction effects. It will still produce horizontal lobing between the tweeter and either midrange driver.

That doesn't even address the real problem with a horizontal MTM using two parallel 6 inch drivers all the way up to 2.4khz.

If it has flat frequency response, which the SCS does, then it naturally can not have anything close to even horizontal off axis response.

This is the kind of horizontal off axis response you're probably looking at:

Never mind to a person sitting off axis, even the person sitting on axis will experience an unnatural midrange except in a padded room.

 

[sumasage]

Everything is ordered! Will let you guys know how they perform when i put them together. Thanks for all the helps especially to FirstReflection.

 

[mannoiaj]

I know it's already ordered, but for $65 more you could move up to the eD a2-300 which is a 12 inch driver with more output, and it wouldn't stick out as far as it isn't as deep. If you could swing the $65, I'd get on the phone with eD.