Epik Empire Data-Bass Review

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1351494

I'm a bit disappointed that there's so much signal manipulation, especially below 20 Hz. If I wanted that level of roll off, I would just get a ported sub.
They don't want warranty claims. There are a lot of lunatics that would blow up the speaker without the high pass filter. You really have to Eq a sealed sub. All start to roll off well above the Fs of the driver. So a 12 db boost starting just above the unequalized 3 db point is mandatory.

If you don't want the coloration of ported boxes then you have to live with these issues, unless you want to build a TL sub, or purchase one from PMC. I believe they are the only commercial TL subs.

Your only other option is a spare room to load about four 18" sub drivers.
Even then only the suspensions limit the drivers excursion. In a TL there is very high pressure behind the cone to control it.

Basically ported and sealed subs are all less than optimal, but avoiding them takes up a lot of real estate.
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
I'm a bit disappointed that there's so much signal manipulation, especially below 20 Hz. If I wanted that level of roll off, I would just get a ported sub.
Well to some extent some EQ boost is basically par for the course with sealed subwoofers. The HPF employed is not that uncommon either. The JL sealed subs employ the same sort of filter. I already said my piece on that in the review though.
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Have you actually heard one? There's a BIG difference between complaining about numbers and first hand experience.
No, I have not heard one and I'm sure I'd be impressed if I did, especially since I'm sub-free at the moment :(. However, I'm more interested in finding a sub with flatter response in the mid range and a more natural level of roll off further down. That's a pretty big bump in the 60-100 Hz range; it's probably why so many Empire owners praise it's midbass performance.

As for the HPF part, couldn't that be worked around to some degree if the box size and amplifer were changed in a way (smaller/lower would be my guess) so the drivers don't go past the Xmax? I understand wanting to put some sort of protection for the lunatics that TLS Guy is talking about, however, that really seems to kill off any ideas of using it for infrasonic content in movies. I also understand that at this price point, certain design compromises/choices have to be made, but I'm not sure they are acceptable for me.

TLS GUY said:
Basically ported and sealed subs are all less than optimal, but avoiding them takes up a lot of real estate.
I am a bit surprised to hear you say that both ported and sealed subs are less than optimal - I've been under the impression that sealed multiples were the best design choice (outside of something a bit more ambitious, like a DBA or an IB system). How did you come to your stance on TL subs? Doesn't the content you listen to (classical, if my memory serves me right) have a lot to do with that?


Thanks for putting in the time to do such in-depth analysis on these subs Ricci - you're doing an awesome service for the greater A/V community. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Originally posted by Templemanners
I am a bit surprised to hear you say that both ported and sealed subs are less than optimal - I've been under the impression that sealed multiples were the best design choice (outside of something a bit more ambitious, like a DBA or an IB system). How did you come to your stance on TL subs? Doesn't the content you listen to (classical, if my memory serves me right) have a lot to do with that?
Listening to classical music has nothing to do with it. I was in Greg Reason's studio a few months back. He is one of the nations foremost CD mastering engineers. His work is all in the popular domain. He uses TLs from PMC. He says he can't stand bloom and hangover.

Even a sealed box is still a resonant system. The air in the box and driver suspension combine to make a resonant system. However this can be controlled much tighter than reflex designs. The penalty is low efficiency, with no driver augmentation from the loading. Rather there is too high a cut off frequency, with a need for equalization. This consumes amplifier power and demands large driver excursions.

So all the output has to come from the speaker cone. Speaker cones are lousy acoustic couplers to the air.

A TL properly designed and aperiodically damped allows for a truly non resonant system. At the same time cone excursion is well controlled by the antinode of pressure at the closed end of a stopped pipe. At the same time the entire rear radiation from the cone is not wasted. It is radiated from the open end of the pipe in a tightly controlled fashion with excellent coupling to the room. Organ builders have been aware of the encircling nature of pipes, in the way they efficiently couple to a space. This results in highly even radiation throughout the room.

The result is deep uncolored natural bass without stress to drivers and amps. My bass amps barely get warm.

The effect on all types of program is awesome and that includes movies, pop, orchestral, chamber, choral and organ music. TLs are optimal for all types of program.

The only downside is complexity of design and construction, along with a large size.

The BBC in their studios at Maida Vale have used TL monitors from the sixties. Now it is exclusive with even their small speakers being a type of TL, which is an acoustic labyrinth. I can assure you there is no organization on Earth more discerning and discriminating when it comes to the art of recording and sound reproduction.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Listening to classical music has nothing to do with it. I was in Greg Reason's studio a few months back. He is one of the nations foremost CD mastering engineers. His work is all in the popular domain. He uses TLs from PMC. He says he can't stand bloom and hangover.
Yep, I am not a fan of hangover myself, but that also means the previous night was usually at least fun :D

Even a sealed box is still a resonant system. The air in the box and driver suspension combine to make a resonant system. However this can be controlled much tighter than reflex designs. The penalty is low efficiency, with no driver augmentation from the loading. Rather there is too high a cut off frequency, with a need for equalization. This consumes amplifier power and demands large driver excursions.
If you read through the review, he comments that they were able to address (to some extent, not eliminate) a nubmer of these things through very specific design of the driver - high excursion, but light cones. It still won't be perfect, but I have no complaints about the sound. I DO have a hump at 45 Hz in my room that I will likely need to EQ, but I expect to be moving sometime in the near future so I won't do much until I see how the new room is. The fact is, these drivers do extremely well up high, surprisingly so in fact, but it is hard to describe. They just blend in so well becuse of this, that it sounds like it is supposed to be that way.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
I am a bit surprised to hear you say that both ported and sealed subs are less than optimal - I've been under the impression that sealed multiples were the best design choice (outside of something a bit more ambitious, like a DBA or an IB system). How did you come to your stance on TL subs? Doesn't the content you listen to (classical, if my memory serves me right) have a lot to do with that?
There's no real "best" choice for everyone, except for multiple subwoofers properly set up. Inside the framework of a properly-configured multisub system, there are acceptable compromises based on aesthetics and SPL desires. In short:

Willing to trade off ULF for efficiency above 20Hz: EBS vented or passive radiator. I prefer PR's because, while more expensive, they can be smaller and do not have pipe resonance issues.)

Willing to trade off efficiency for some ULF ability: sealed. The amount of ULF possible depends on the volume displacement of the drivers, cabinet size, and amount of power.

Above, but willing to live with somewhat larger boxes to get more efficiency: 4th order bandpass (sometimes called "front-loaded horn").

Don't really care about size, want max efficiency and are willing to live with limited bandwidth (be it on top or on bottom): 6th order bandpass (sometimes called "tapped horn") or higher order BP.

And there's little practical difference between a "TL" and a vented box. They're both dipole (4th order) systems, with the same issues.

FWIW, I generally prefer closed-box subs, because they can be the smallest of the group and efficient enough to reach my SPL needs on reasonable power. (Someone who insists on cinema reference levels at 8Hz may want much bigger subs than I do.) In small spaces or apartments etc. I think a strong case can be made for compact PR subs, a la the Peerless XLS Application Note design.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
A TL properly designed and aperiodically damped allows for a truly non resonant system.

Huh?

Any quarter wave resonator, by definition would be a resonator, unless it's closed at both ends, at which point yes it's a transmission line, but also effectively equivalent to a sealed box, minus a reduced impedance peak which I honestly fail to see the value of to anyone not using wimpy tube amps.

That quarter wave resonator will also eventually be out of phase with the forward wave of the driver, just like a passive radiator or a port, leading to an ultimate 24db/octave rolloff.

If what you're saying, is that the impulse response is very clean, then yes, TLs can have very clean impulse response unlike the conventional vented box, but only because the conventional vented box' impulse response wasn't modeled in the design process.

At the same time the entire rear radiation from the cone is not wasted.
Likewise with a properly damped helmholtz enclosure... designed with clean impulse response as a goal and with a tuning behaviour appropriate for a given room.

It is radiated from the open end of the pipe in a tightly controlled fashion with excellent coupling to the room.
The open end of a TL is a point source bass radiator. Not sure how this makes it couple "excellently" to the room. It's effectively identical coupling to the vent in a vented box. The difference is that TLs are modeled to factor in internal ringing / upper harmonics and most ported boxes are thrown together haphazardly. This of course has nothing to do with coupling. Neither will couple to room modes like a cardioid or dipole source. I think what you're calling coupling, is a shallow ~3db/octave rolloff of an extended bass shelf alignment, which most TLs effectively resemble. This shallow slope appropriates room gain behaviour.

This results in highly even radiation throughout the room
I would greatly appreciate in-room measurements to show this phenomenon, of a single one of your TLs and how they load the room evenly from 20hz to 400hz or what have you. Else I don't see how their radiation is desirable over any other monopole. The closest thing you get is that the upper harmonics of lines also contribute output as a secondary source, which is a very narrow passband, and only useful if the open end is far away from the radiating driver.

The result is deep uncolored natural bass without stress to drivers and amps. My bass amps barely get warm.
Likewise with any properly damped ported box. The damping and frequency response of the ported box determines its coloration characteristics or lack thereof, and likewise with a TL. Neither requires amplifier boost like a sealed box.

TLs are optimal for all types of program.
Not if you want infrasonics. The 24db/octave rolloff of a resonant system like any TL with open end output won't get you subsonics below the knee. MJK's research indicates there's no such thing as the mythical 12db/octave TL, unless you completely stuff it and turn it into an oversized sealed box. The only advantage of such an approach is to get a flatter impedance peak; a goal which is beyond me for usefulness, as such a TL would again require the same type of boost as a sealed box, and have the same F3 as a sealed box of the same volume.

Of course, if you don't care about what's going on below 20hz, it's irrelevant. Go with a vented box or a TL. TLs are optimal for the same types of program as well designed, well damped ported boxes. Any differences between them will be evident in the various models using MJK's worksheets.

The only downside is complexity of design and construction, along with a large size.
As is the case with a well designed ported box, along with the requisite 24db/octave rolloff of both. If one wants bass down into infrasonics with a gradual rolloff, they need multiple 18s as you said. If one only needs bass down to 20hz, then they need superior modeling software like MJK's quarter wave worksheets, which analyze damping properties of enclosures in general. Whether it's a TL or a vent or passive radiators or sealed, they will still require many spaced sources if they want truly measurably flat frequency response. That, or cardioid subs, which have the caveat of, being gradient systems, worse efficiency than sealed and thus more need for response shaping.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Huh?

Any quarter wave resonator, by definition would be a resonator, unless it's closed at both ends, at which point yes it's a transmission line, but also effectively equivalent to a sealed box, minus a reduced impedance peak which I honestly fail to see the value of to anyone not using wimpy tube amps.

That quarter wave resonator will also eventually be out of phase with the forward wave of the driver, just like a passive radiator or a port, leading to an ultimate 24db/octave rolloff.

If what you're saying, is that the impulse response is very clean, then yes, TLs can have very clean impulse response unlike the conventional vented box, but only because the conventional vented box' impulse response wasn't modeled in the design process.



Likewise with a properly damped helmholtz enclosure... designed with clean impulse response as a goal and with a tuning behaviour appropriate for a given room.



The open end of a TL is a point source bass radiator. Not sure how this makes it couple "excellently" to the room. It's effectively identical coupling to the vent in a vented box. The difference is that TLs are modeled to factor in internal ringing / upper harmonics and most ported boxes are thrown together haphazardly. This of course has nothing to do with coupling. Neither will couple to room modes like a cardioid or dipole source. I think what you're calling coupling, is a shallow ~3db/octave rolloff of an extended bass shelf alignment, which most TLs effectively resemble. This shallow slope appropriates room gain behaviour.



I would greatly appreciate in-room measurements to show this phenomenon, of a single one of your TLs and how they load the room evenly from 20hz to 400hz or what have you. Else I don't see how their radiation is desirable over any other monopole. The closest thing you get is that the upper harmonics of lines also contribute output as a secondary source, which is a very narrow passband, and only useful if the open end is far away from the radiating driver.



Likewise with any properly damped ported box. The damping and frequency response of the ported box determines its coloration characteristics or lack thereof, and likewise with a TL. Neither requires amplifier boost like a sealed box.



Not if you want infrasonics. The 24db/octave rolloff of a resonant system like any TL with open end output won't get you subsonics below the knee. MJK's research indicates there's no such thing as the mythical 12db/octave TL, unless you completely stuff it and turn it into an oversized sealed box. The only advantage of such an approach is to get a flatter impedance peak; a goal which is beyond me for usefulness, as such a TL would again require the same type of boost as a sealed box, and have the same F3 as a sealed box of the same volume.

Of course, if you don't care about what's going on below 20hz, it's irrelevant. Go with a vented box or a TL. TLs are optimal for the same types of program as well designed, well damped ported boxes. Any differences between them will be evident in the various models using MJK's worksheets.



As is the case with a well designed ported box, along with the requisite 24db/octave rolloff of both. If one wants bass down into infrasonics with a gradual rolloff, they need multiple 18s as you said. If one only needs bass down to 20hz, then they need superior modeling software like MJK's quarter wave worksheets, which analyze damping properties of enclosures in general. Whether it's a TL or a vent or passive radiators or sealed, they will still require many spaced sources if they want truly measurably flat frequency response. That, or cardioid subs, which have the caveat of, being gradient systems, worse efficiency than sealed and thus more need for response shaping.
TLs are non resonant if properly damped and they do not roll off at 24 db/octave but at 12 db per octave. They have to be damped to the point were there is only one peak of impedance and not two, like an undamped quarter wave pipe has or a Qb4 ported box.

The port of a TL has a large area, unlike a reflex enclosure. There is large non turbulent air movement.

An organ builder showed me long ago that pipes couple to the room evenly. In a church were there was an electric organ being replaced by a pipe organ, he showed me the effect.

The speakers of the electric organ were loud up front and quiet at the back. The spl fell as the square of the distance. The pipe organ on the other hand filled the church pretty much uniformly. Organ builders use the term encircling for the phenomenon.

This is why a congregation will sing much more lustily with a pipe organ then an electric organ. The pipe organ builds confidence in a fashion that no speaker driven instrument can.

Now a TL will support the driver over about 1.5 octaves, so if the pipe is tuned to 40 Hz there will be support to 100 Hz. If tuned to 20 Hz then there will be support to 60 Hz. You will not get support to 400 Hz. However it is below 100 Hz that speakers become progressively poor couplers to the room.

The late John wright showed that if you build dual TLs tuned half and octave apart you get a particularly even driver support and in room response. These systems are highly unusual and exceedingly uncommon. As far as I know he was the only individual to make a commercial design available not long before his untimely death.

I took these readings with a calibrated microphone.

Now the large line has good assist from 20 to 60 Hz and the smaller line from 40 to 100 Hz, although there seems some assist to 120 Hz.

I took readings from one meter of the top ports from 20 to 60 Hz and 1 meter from the division of the 10" woofers and also 1 meter from the tweeter axis. I took readings across the front row seats and the back row seats. From 70 to 200 Hz I took readings from the port of the smaller TL. These readings are bracketed. Drive was constant throughout the frequencies sampled.

From 40 to 60 Hz there is overlap from the ports of the 7" and 10" drivers and the the ports of both lines. So in this region the tweeter axis response is probably the most significant as well as the far field response.

Freq Hz TL port Tweeter axis Front row seats Back row seats.

20 92 db 94 db 86 db 94 db

25 98 db 98 db 94 db 96 db

30 97 db 96 db 92 db 96 db

40 96 db 96 db 92 db 86 db

50 100 db 100 db 97 db 90 db

60 94 db 96 db 90 db 84 db

70 (102) db 101 db 92 db 95 db

80 (102) db 98 db 90 db 94 db

90 (100) db 98 db 84 db 100 db

100 (99) db 95 db 95 db 94 db

110 (96) db 96 db 97 db 94 db

120 (96) db 96 db 94 db 90 db

200 (90) db 96 db 86 db 86 db

400 -------- 90 db 90 db 85 db

500 -------- 98 db 87 db 85 db

Readings from calibrated Shure condenser Mic.

The bass of from TLs is certainly very different in character from other loading systems.

I had a client here last week, who had just had a CD mastered at Greg Rierson's studio. He has large PMC lines. That was this individuals first exposure to TLs. He got his second here. He said both these systems were the best he had ever heard and he had heard a lot. He said he heard numerous features in the bass line he had never heard before.

He is going to decide whether he will contract Walberswick studios to archive the bands reel to reel archive and master it to CD. Unfortunately it is rock music, but a job is a job!

If you want to hear large lines you will have to come here or find some large PMC speakers. They are not plentiful. Greg's were $27,000 per pair and they are a long way from the top of the PMC offerings.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
TLs are non resonant if properly damped and they do not roll off at 24 db/octave but at 12 db per octave. They have to be damped to the point were there is only one peak of impedance and not two, like an undamped quarter wave pipe has or a Qb4 ported box.
If TLs are rolling off at 12db/octave and are non resonant, then it's impossible for there to be any pipe output. In effect you get a very large sealed enclosure.

The port of a TL has a large area, unlike a reflex enclosure. There is large non turbulent air movement.
I am not sure where it's written that a reflex enclosure must have a small area. In fact some passive radiator enclosures have larger area than transmission line pipe openings.

An organ builder showed me long ago that pipes couple to the room evenly. In a church were there was an electric organ being replaced by a pipe organ, he showed me the effect.

The speakers of the electric organ were loud up front and quiet at the back. The spl fell as the square of the distance. The pipe organ on the other hand filled the church pretty much uniformly. Organ builders use the term encircling for the phenomenon.
And how does this phenomenon work? Is this of any relevance in a small room where the reflected energy off walls will just return to the listening position and create standing waves?

The late John wright showed that if you build dual TLs tuned half and octave apart you get a particularly even driver support and in room response.
I can imagine this, especially with enough vertical sources, aproximating a random/cardioid type of response.

Code:
 Freq Hz       TL port        Tweeter axis  Front row seats  Back row seats.
20                  92 db              94 db             86 db                       94 db
25                  98 db              98 db             94 db                       96 db
30                  97 db              96 db             92 db                       96 db
40                  96 db              96 db             92 db                       86 db
50                 100 db           100 db             97 db                       90 db
60                   94 db             96 db             90 db                       84 db
70               (102) db           101 db            92 db                       95 db
80               (102) db             98 db            90 db                       94 db
90               (100) db             98 db            84 db                       100db
100               (99) db             95 db            95 db                       94 db
110               (96) db             96 db            97 db                       94 db
120               (96) db             96 db            94 db                       90 db
200               (90) db             96 db            86 db                       86 db
400                  --------            90 db            90 db                       85 db
500                  --------            98 db            87 db                        85 db
..So this response is still +/- 6.5db for the front seats, and +/- 8db for the rear seats. It's good response, but I'm unsure how it compares to an equalized sealed box, for example, at the same position. Two more measurements I'd be interested in would be

1) Impedance measurements of your lines showing a single peak
2) Frequency response of just the 40hz tuned line alone, showing the 12db/octave rolloff towards 10hz.
 
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C

capecodorthopod

Audiophyte
It's different from an f12 in just about every way. The Empire is sealed, bigger, 15" driver x 2, $799. The f12 is ported, smaller, single 12" driver and about a third the cost.
 
C

capecodorthopod

Audiophyte
The one thing in common is both the Empire and f12 provide excellent performance/price.
 
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