is this possible? Computer as DAC -> 5.1 Amp -> Speakers

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gpost3

Banned
Hi guys,

My primary sound processor is my computer. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the theory and ideas only. Sound quality is not to be argued here. Just the theory and ideas and the notion of efficiency purely from hardware and software point of view. So here goes.

We all know that Computers have built in sound cards. These sounds chips have built in DAC. The software (Drivers) that control the sound chip performs all the 5.1/DTS/Dolby what have you processing on the chip (or off-loads it to CPU where it is done incase the hardware doesn't exist for the algorithm to run natively) - In anycase it gets done if the software has the support for it.

Now since computers can do all that processing - when a new algorithm/decoding feature/standard comes out - the only thing that has to change is the driver which controls the chip. Update the drivers and voila you have the new algorithm.

Now the question is this, can this processing/decoding information be transmitted to an "AMPLIFER" so that the amp takes the signal, simply amplifies it and sends the audio signals to respective speakers. Ofcourse we assume that the amplifier has the necessary interface to connect the interconnects together. Let's assume 5.1 Audio Signal sent over HDMI. All the processing gets done on the computer, sends the signal over HDMI to an Amplifier, which simply takes the signals, amps them and sends it off. No processing to be done on the AMP itself except for delegating the signals to appropriate speaker. In theory is this possible? what do you guys think and does such an amplifier exist today? (For concept overview, check out the pic - pardon for my drawing).
 

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sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
You just want to take a processed signal from the computer and amplify it unchanged? Any receiver should be able to do that but you're still sending a digital signal to the receiver if you use HDMI or a digital connection so the receiver's DACs will still have to convert the data to analog. If you want to use the cheap DACs on the sound card then you'll have to use analog connections between the computer and amp.
 
audioAl

audioAl

Enthusiast
Yamaha RX 465

I have the above amp connected via optical toslink from an Asus Xonar DS R soundcard, the Yamaha reads the signal and see's the DTS pc neo connection. That is about as close as you can get.
 
I

Impelled

Junior Audioholic
OP, you have described how soundcards work, they feed sound to the amplifier via analogue, SPDIF or HDMI.
Sound is processed on the CPU and/or on the soundcard (Creative X-Fi series chips).
If the amp has DSP effects, those 'can' be used as well for digital sources.

You can run a program that transforms sound or plays back sound.
Winamp is a simple to use player that has a plugin feature to allow you to add effects.
Programs like Guitar Rig will take an input (your guitar), process the sound and then feed it to your hifi (not recommended for guitar!) or guitar amp.
 
3

33Gerry45

Audiophyte
Thank you op for this thread. :cool:

This is aimed right between the bulldust snakeoil sales departments of music vendors who would have us spend a fortune on madness like a separate powered DAC box or HDMI cables costing the mortgage on sheep stations and the more sensible sound gear where a minimum quality (but inexpensive) lot of gear will reproduce very very good sound.

Most computer based soundcards and sound processing systems will process a nice signal but introduce latency or delay. This will stop you playing a guitar into a computer with very fast bach pieces or AC/DC solos.

On the other hand I got some very nice tones out of an old computer some 15 years ago using a Creative card and allowing for the delay using my mind and prediction.

Bear in mind that some of the most iconic guitar solos were done on cheap gear: see the Jimmy Page Stairway to Heaven comments and others here: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/ProductSpotlight/GearAndInstruments/seven-incongruous-rigs-that/

and here: http://wholelottaled.webs.com/amps.htm

The point is that inexpensive but well chosen gear can be used to make the most seminal music of all time so modest but good quality reproduction gear that is well chosen, tweaked and put together should be able to reproduce just about any decent recording faithfully.

With this logic, as long as the signal going into the receiver is from a good bitrate and well recorded and mixed piece through decent software, then there is no reason on earth why it cannot bring you to music Nirvanah.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I would say that the biggest headache for the computer is what was specifically omitted from the original request in that noise from the PC in the analog realm is typically pretty bad and that is what the best sound cards with external DACs are made to avoid.

Still, the PC can do everything in the digital realm and typically can do so very well. They can be upgraded to handle most of the audio codecs on the market just fine.

The question really becomes - why?

Audio codecs don't actually change that often and a good deal of what we've seen in the past few years with HD audio had been because of Blu-ray and the HDMI chip sets being changed to handle the higher bit rates which were required. It wasn't a software/firmware upgrade, but an actual physical upgrade which was required.

Still, HD audio has been around for a number of years and it is not the audio which has changed as much as the container it is in. DVD-A, SACD, and now HD audio on Blu-ray. But, the quality of the music is often the same, or very close. The PC can handle all of those flavors, if you have the drive to play them back, or get them into your computer as lossless, and you have a good sound card to deal with everything, and the know how to do it all.

Forget theory, people are doing this all the time!

Still more though are not. Instead, they go out and buy a $200ish Blu-ray player, drop a disc in, and play it back. The PS3, from four years ago now (?) is able to handle all of that just fine.

But, if you are looking to source HD audio from the Internet, which does exist, then you likely will be wanting a good sound card to do it all, and for that money, a dedicated HD audio player may offer a more friendly end user experience.

There is no snake oil here, and a simple sound card in your $1,000 computer, will do a very good job. That's $1,000, and you still need the A/V receiver to decode from PCM uncompressed to the amplifier section and volume control and speakers. Plus, the kids may be using the computer right now. ;)

Many people run a dedicated HTPC, and this is pretty much exactly what you are talking about the end result being. A dedicated PC, with HD audio capabilities and a good digital or analog output section to deliver quality audio to your home system. The price is rarely inexpensive on this, but it isn't out of the water either.

Yet, it's important to realize that at some point the logic of running things will exceed the capabilities of the PC. A five year old computer may be able to decode H.264 video, for example, but it can't do it fast enough for smooth real time playback. With audio, this isn't as big of an issue, but the potential certainly is there for this to occur.

It's also notable that newer A/V receivers, have an Internet connection and perform on the fly firmware updates which may enable additional features which did not come originally with the product. I think this will be standard inside of ten years or so and we will see audio chips which allow for firmware updates which can handle new formats when they come to market. Not sure what new audio formats we will see, but most likely it will be about new compression formats to make things more easily downloaded at higher quality.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Using Optical/Coax or HDMI cable from PC - COMPLETELY BYPASSES computer onboard DAC alltogether. Instead you'll be using DACs inside your receiver. This is pretty typical configuration and there's nothing magical about it.
Keep in mind that by specification spdif protocol is barred from passing thru lossless HD audio like DTS HD and DD HD( master audio )etc..
For these you must use HDMI connection. All you need is any computer (even a five year old one) with any AMD/ATI based video card with HDMI port of Radeon HD 5xxx or 6xxx series
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I would say that the biggest headache for the computer is what was specifically omitted from the original request in that noise from the PC in the analog realm is typically pretty bad and that is what the best sound cards with external DACs are made to avoid.

Still, the PC can do everything in the digital realm and typically can do so very well. They can be upgraded to handle most of the audio codecs on the market just fine.
I have to take issue with this. A properly designed internal sound card will not be affected by EMI/RFI from the computer. The cause is well understood and the solutions have been out there for years.

Look at RME/LYNX/EMU. They all have internal and external solutions that do great.

Now as a a point to your statement I am running a DC-DC ATX converter and a Tripplite linear regulated 10 amp DC supply (10lbs).

Running a TRS to RCA with ground intact shows all sorts of noise with a traditional Switch Mode PSU. You can hear everything from HD access to the mouse moving. With the DC-DC converter and the Tripplite PSU it is dead silent. Now with a correctly design TS to RCA no problems. The noise will still be there with a switched PSU but it simply doesn't make it into the audio circuit via the sound card.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I have to take issue with this. A properly designed internal sound card will not be affected by EMI/RFI from the computer. The cause is well understood and the solutions have been out there for years.

Look at RME/LYNX/EMU. They all have internal and external solutions that do great.

Now as a a point to your statement I am running a DC-DC ATX converter and a Tripplite linear regulated 10 amp DC supply (10lbs).

Running a TRS to RCA with ground intact shows all sorts of noise with a traditional Switch Mode PSU. You can hear everything from HD access to the mouse moving. With the DC-DC converter and the Tripplite PSU it is dead silent. Now with a correctly design TS to RCA no problems. The noise will still be there with a switched PSU but it simply doesn't make it into the audio circuit via the sound card.
I agree, I started to have all sorts of issues after I switched to new monitors, my problems were fixed by 3 things: good filtering power strip from Tripp lite, using SB PCI audio card (see sig) and good monoprice cable
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
Hi guys,
My primary sound processor is my computer. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the theory and ideas only. Sound quality is not to be argued here. Just the theory and ideas and the notion of efficiency purely from hardware and software point of view. So here goes.

You are way over-complicating this.

Here is a simple way:
1) Get a PC/laptop that has a toslink (or HDMI)* output as part of its features.

2) set PC/playback software output to direct audio to the PC digital out.


3) Run the toslink cable from your PC to your AVR digital in.


that's all! (assuming your PC or your AVR can decode all the formats you're interested in)


(*toslink if you're ok with lossy Dolby Digital/DTS for 5.1, HDMI v1.3 if you need lossless 5.1)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You are way over-complicating this.

Here is a simple way:
1) Get a PC/laptop that has a toslink (or HDMI)* output as part of its features.

2) set PC/playback software output to direct audio to the PC digital out.


3) Run the toslink cable from your PC to your AVR digital in.


that's all! (assuming your PC or your AVR can decode all the formats you're interested in)


(*toslink if you're ok with lossy Dolby Digital/DTS for 5.1, HDMI v1.3 if you need lossless 5.1)

We are not sure if the OP is talking about something like an Asus Xonar with analog out to multiple channels of amplification. That is the computer is the processor/receiver (?)
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I'm sorry - isn't his whole thought process here an attempt at removing the A/V receiver from the equasion? Going straight from computer to amp?
 
G

gpost3

Banned
Wow good professional discussion guys. I'm going to clarify a few things here.

The point is to remove computer's DAC i.e. Don't convert the digital to analog on the computer but rather do all the "Processing" on the computer and send the data over in packets via HDMI for delagation purpose. The A/V receiver will have the DAC which will merely convert the appropriate signals (all the way to nth inputs) and send them off to respective speakers. This way, no processing needs to be done on A/V (only the digital to analog conversion which is already well understood). When a new standard comes out, just upgrade your drivers on your computer. This ofcourse applys to video as well so you could very well play divx and any standard that is not supported by your A/V receiver. As far as video is concerned, the A/V will only perform the delegation, no post-processing since the TV's now a days do take digital input anyway.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
That in theory is all well and good, but one of the sole most important place of an AVR/preamp is the ability to adjust / correct room anomalies - such as speaker distance, phase, crossover, trim (speaker/sub channel levels) possibly EQ.

I haven't really looked into the software side of such an idea but I don't think there is currently a way to have all those abilities coming straight out of a computer...

If this is built into a computer - I just don't know of it...
 
G

gpost3

Banned
healthy discussion going on that's good to see usually this sort of healthiness is lost in forum discussions.

Dear Warp, please do keep in mind that your AVR is nothing but a micro-controller which is running its firmware (software). If it can be done in AVR, it can also be done in a computer with a software. Anything that is mathematically computable can be computed on a general purpose microprocessor. Your AVR does nothing more than that computation (i.e. an algorithm for room correction and other parameters). For instance please look at the software utility that comes with RealTek chips (see link below please).

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=realtek+correction&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1440&bih=796&tbm=isch&tbnid=9B1Yb0csVxS9SM:&imgrefurl=http://thetechdomain.blogspot.com/2011/05/51-channel-speakers-not-working-in.html&docid=frcahnGISjFeiM&w=814&h=633&ei=9YZ9TsCeOqT40gHB_-GuDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=172&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=171&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=98&ty=82
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
healthy discussion going on that's good to see usually this sort of healthiness is lost in forum discussions.

Dear Warp, please do keep in mind that your AVR is nothing but a micro-controller which is running its firmware (software). If it can be done in AVR, it can also be done in a computer with a software. Anything that is mathematically computable can be computed on a general purpose microprocessor. Your AVR does nothing more than that computation (i.e. an algorithm for room correction and other parameters). For instance please look at the software utility that comes with RealTek chips (see link below please).

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=realtek+correction&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1440&bih=796&tbm=isch&tbnid=9B1Yb0csVxS9SM:&imgrefurl=http://thetechdomain.blogspot.com/2011/05/51-channel-speakers-not-working-in.html&docid=frcahnGISjFeiM&w=814&h=633&ei=9YZ9TsCeOqT40gHB_-GuDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=172&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=171&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=98&ty=82

Realtek provides a basic level and delay correction - this is only a small portion of what AVR does - including automatic room correction, dynamic (real-time) volume adjustment

I agree with you regarding avr function - nothing but a programmed dsp, I guess someone, one day could write all the software to do in the pc, but this day is still not here...
 
G

gpost3

Banned
Thank you so much for agreeing Sys.

Someone like the people behind the Vinyl logo on some VIA Chips should do this or atleast make an attempt. But it might cause some business shutdown for other smaller players in this industry especially those companies that do only AVRs. :DVIA's chip already come with a more robust software system (I currently use in my computer) that includes real-time loudness control and equalisation.
 
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