Look at what Pioneer brought out for $200

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But do you honestly think they'll sound better than either of those two very expensive speakers?

In the midrange..yes .. given room constraints..etc. price is no guarentee of quality.

Dude, I cannot believe you just said the $200/pr Pioneer sound better than the $25K/pr B&W 800 Diamond in the midrange given room constraints, etc., which is the most important section of the audio spectrum!

I wonder if PENG & TLS Guy would agree with you because DenPureSound & I totally disagree with you on this one, for the record!

 

[3db]

Dude, I cannot believe you just said the $200/pr Pioneer sound better than the $25K/pr B&W 800 Diamond in the midrange given room constraints, etc., which is the most important section of the audio spectrum!

I wonder if PENG & TLS Guy would agree with you because DenPureSound & I totally disagree with you on this one, for the record!

Then what is the use of frequency response curves if they don't give you a good approximation of how the speaker will sound?

I know they'll lose out to the others in dynamics and volume. Why did you buy the Infinities if it were not for their frequency response curves?

 

[jonnythan]

Then what is the use of frequency response curves if they don't give you a good approximation of how the speaker will sound?

They give you some information, but I refuse to believe that any speaker that measures +/- 2 dB across its frequency range will sound roughly the same. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Then what is the use of frequency response curves if they don't give you a good approximation of how the speaker will sound?

I know they'll lose out to the others in dynamics and volume. Why did you buy the Infinities if it were not for their frequency response curves?

I do believe in the research of Toole/Olive/Harmon International that basically says -- with all other things being equal (acoustics, placement, volume, etc.), the speakers with the best true off-axis (polar response) and on-axis frequency response will sound the best to most people.

Yes, all the speakers I buy, including the P362 & P163, have very good 60 degrees horizontal off-axis polar response and on-axis response.

But that Pioneer is +4.5dB. That is not a very good response. The definition of a good response is less than or equal to +/- 3dB (same as your name), not +/- 4.5dB.

 

[3db]

I do believe in the research of Toole/Olive/Harmon International that basically says -- with all other things being equal (acoustics, placement, volume, etc.), the speakers with the best true off-axis (polar response) and on-axis frequency response will sound the best to most people.

Yes, all the speakers I buy, including the P362 & P163, have very good 60 degrees horizontal off-axis polar response and on-axis response.

But that Pioneer is +4.5dB. That is not a very good response. The definition of a good response is less than or equal to +/- 3dB (same as your name), not +/- 4.5dB.

Ok so based on your agruemnts and teh data I gave you on the Beethovens which cost a considerable some more, would you not reach teh same conclusion? Also, if teh B&W measured poorly like teh Beethovens, wouldn't the same hodl true? If so why are you disagreeing?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok so based on your agruemnts and teh data I gave you on the Beethovens which cost a considerable some more, would you not reach teh same conclusion? Also, if teh B&W measured poorly like teh Beethovens, wouldn't the same hodl true? If so why are you disagreeing?

I'm was just having fun playing with you.

You know I agree with you.

Well, except for that part about the +4.5dB on the Pioneer's FR being "pretty good".

IMO Freq Resp is a constant, but relative to anything, including price.

If the FR is +/- 3.00 dB, then the FR is good.

If the FR is less than +/- 3.00 dB, then the FR is very good.

If the FR is more than +/- 3.00 dB, then the FR is not good.

And if the FR is more than +/-4.00 dB, then the FR is bad.

I think some people will even say that anything more than +/-3dB is plain bad.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm confused here. If this is the graph:
]

Then that looks like +/- 2db tolerance in the critical range from 200hz to 8khz

Where are we getting 4db swings?

 

[jonnythan]

If you think a pair of $200 Pioneer bookshelf speakers will sound better than the B&W 800 Diamond because the response graph is a little flatter, you're absolutely insane.

 

[zieglj01]

I'm confused here. If this is the graph:

Then that looks like +/- 2db tolerance in the critical range from 200hz to 8khz

Where are we getting 4db swings?

The Pioneers' do fine in the midrange - However, more expensive speakers
have better resolution, and will throw an expansive sound stage. The main
thing I hear, is that the highs begin to roll off - the Pioneer speakers for the
most part, are pleasant sounding speakers - with a good crossover. They
are not hollow, spitty, shouty or nasal sounding. They do not annoy me like
a lot of entry level speakers do.

 

[GranteedEV]

The Pioneers do fine in the midrange - However, more expensive speakers
have better resolution, and will throw an expansive sound stage. The main
thing I hear, is that the highs begin to roll off - the Pioneer speakers for the
most part, are pleasant sounding speakers - with a good crossover.

My point was, what was ADTG talking about that these speakers have poor FR? It looks fine to me.

Anyways let's not forget that Pioneer makes more expensive speakers too

Here is the S-1EX polar response:

 

[zieglj01]

My point was, what was ADTG talking about that these speakers have poor FR? It looks fine to me.

Anyways let's not forget that Pioneer makes more expensive speakers too

Here is the S-1EX polar response:

They are on my wish list, like a few other speakers. Andrew Jones knows
his stuff.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm confused here. If this is the graph:
]

Then that looks like +/- 2db tolerance in the critical range from 200hz to 8khz

Where are we getting 4db swings?

@7kHz, it is -3dB.
@8kHz, it is -4dB.
@9kHz, it is -4.5dB.

So yeah, if we should only look at 200Hz-8khz, then the Pioneer looks great.

I guess I was thinking that we should also consider 9 & 10 kHz.

Damn, are you telling me 3dB was so right, and I missed it?

He is never going to let me live this down.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is the S-1EX polar response:

Let me know when that speaker goes on sale.

 

[GranteedEV]

@8kHz, it is -4dB.
@9kHz, it is -4.5dB.

"The SP-BS41-LR's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.62/–4.50 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz..."

Fine, but that's the top octave and the least relevant to what we are sensitive to. overall it's still +/-3db tolerance (a 6db window) out to about 13khz (and probably cleans up off axis) and +/-2db tolerance from 200hz to just before 8khz. (IE most of the frequency range we are sensitive to).


Either way, frequency response is only one measurement. The power response might fill in the on axis holes.

 

[3db]

Fine, but that's the top octave and the least relevant to what we are sensitive to. overall it's still +/-3db tolerance (a 6db window) out to about 13khz (and probably cleans up off axis) and +/-2db tolerance from 200hz to just before 8khz. (IE most of the frequency range we are sensitive to).


Either way, frequency response is only one measurement. The power response might fill in the on axis holes.

I eluded to the fact that linearity hasn't been tested either so these speakers could fall apart dynamically.

ATDG.... If I were a pool college student, these speakers would not be a bad choice at all. I'm not saying nor implied that they are the best. But looking at that curver compared to the Beethovens, I would be hearing a good midrange with lots of presence.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I eluded to the fact that linearity hasn't been tested either so these speakers could fall apart dynamically.

ATDG.... If I were a pool college student, these speakers would not be a bad choice at all. I'm not saying nor implied that they are the best. But looking at that curver compared to the Beethovens, I would be hearing a good midrange with lots of presence.

I agree with you completely.

They would not be bad at all for most people.

When I was a poor college student, I owned a pair of Pioneer speakers too. They only costed me $200/pr. They were 3-way and had 15" woofers.

But now I want to know, price aside, which bookshelf speakers has the best measurements?

Infinity P162, NHT SuperZero, This Pioneer? Or any other bookshelf less than $300/pr.

Which has the best listening window measurements either on Soundstage NRC, HTM, or Stereophile.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Continuing with Pioneer speakers, the S1-EX's smaller brother S2-EX looks darn good. No surprise.

The Pioneer ($7K/pr) S2-EX's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.24/–1.98 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 46 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 40 Hz.

 

[GranteedEV]

My only problem with the EX speakers is that the bass drivers aren't very big.

I mean, dual 7 inch woofers?

If it were me, I would take that midrange driver, and mate it to a pair of AE TD10S bass drivers or something

 

[DS-21]

If you think a pair of $200 Pioneer bookshelf speakers will sound better than the B&W 800 Diamond because the response graph is a little flatter, you're absolutely insane.

To my ears, they certainly would, though those graphs indicate the Pioneers would likely sound a bit forward. But of the speakers mentioned on this page that aren't the coincident-driver Pio Elites, it seems to me that the NHT Absolute Zero with a moderately-sized closed-box powered midbass bin under it (say a single side-firing 10, brought in at ~200Hz), and a multisub system providing the foundation, would be an amazing and legitimately top-to-bottom high-fidelity system at a very low cost.

But then again, I don't like the voicing choices B&W makes generally. I prefer more objectively accurate speakers. B&W has a very distinctive "house sound." Either you like 'em, or you don't.

 

[jonnythan]

So I listened to the BS21 and FS51 at Best Buy the other day and compared to a handful of Polk and Klipsch speakers. I was thoroughly underwhelmed. They didn't do anything at all for me.