Need help setting up my dream home theatre system

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
But am really skeptical about putting 4 in one room. But its seriously worth a consideration although I was planning for 2 subs.


1) I was thinking of buying an Yamaha RX A 3000 a/v receiver but now it seems it won’t be enough can you suggest any other perhaps or is this one good enough?

2) I could not find any a/v receiver which can connect 4 subs can any one tell me how the connections will be.? Max found to be 11.2 ch

3) I was thinking of something else as well If I could use a pc as my video processor connected directly to the projector or tv and sound card connection goes to a/v receiver or preamp .When I say pc I mean a full fledged powerhouse running to max capabilities i.e 8gb graphcs card,sound card,12gb ram and latest processor. What do you think of this idea.? This is an alienware system and available for arnd 8800$ approx.

4) Can I use the floor speakers as rear speakers as well ? will it be a good idea or will it affect the quality of sound?

5) I need some recommendations regarding surround speakers and bookshelf speakers as well
Yes, four 18" subs would be over-the-top, but that would only be the very ultimate system. It's what I would do if I had no money limits, but I am a bass junkie. Two would be more than enough for most.

As for the Yamaha receiver, well for the very best system, you probably don't want an AVR, but separates. That is to say, stand alone amplifiers and a pre-processor such as the ones I suggested. Stand alone amplifiers will have a much easier time driving heavy-duty speakers than most built-in AVR amp sections. The Yamaha 3000 supposedly can drive 4 ohm speakers, but to drive seven 4-ohm speakers in a large room for the duration of a feature length musical might be a bit taxing for it. Also, I don't know how good Yamaha's YPAO is, but supposedly Audyssey is thus far the best room correction EQing system. I don't have personal experience comparing them though, so that is just hearsay. But Yamaha makes excellent receivers, and if I were on the market for a high-end AVR, that one would be very high on my list.

If you actually wanted to do a four sub system, you connect the subs to the receiver/AVR/pre-amp though Y-splitters. Any set of subs at the end of a Y-splitter will be seen by the receiver as a single sub though, so both subs via one splitter will be EQ'd the same.

As for your idea for home theater PC, you could do that. I tried it myself and I found that I actually much preferred a separate blu-ray player for movies. The blu-ray player was much easier to set up for movies, it was more efficient, and most importantly, it is much quieter for listening to music and movies. The massive PC you are contemplating will not be silent, that is for sure. But I would still recommend trying a home theater gaming PC, mine is a lot of fun, gaming on a huge screen with a nice sound system is a blast. Also I do use it to watch shows off of Netflix and Hulu.

You can use floor standing speakers as surrounds, in certain situations, but ideally you'll have the surrounds mounted higher up, because many home theater seats will block the path to your ears from the rear in a horizontal plane. In the most ideal surround sound system, all the speakers would be identical. However, the reality is surround channel content is usually pretty insignificant, and not nearly as important as the front stage sound, so you can get away with having lesser speakers for surrounds because you are not likely to notice the difference anyway.

The surrounds you decide to get should be determined by the front stage speakers you decide on, ie if you get Klipsch for front stage speakers, you will want the closest matching Klipsch surround speakers, so everything has a matching voice. Personally, I prefer bookshelf speakers over dipole/bipole type speakers, and if you go with a full seven channel system, I think it would be more logical to use bookshelf speakers for surrounds rather than speakers with more diffuse sound, especially in a large room such as yours.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Regarded by whom?
Regarded by many highly knowledgeable folks on this forum. Frequency response will be adjusted by EQing anyway, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that FR measurement. One thing that cannot be fixed by electronics is cabinet resonance, which is the B&W's strong point. If I had the money, I would certainly give them a try, due to many discussions of them here and elsewhere.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Regarded by many highly knowledgeable folks on this forum. Frequency response will be adjusted by EQing anyway, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that FR measurement.
You can't equalize bad polar response. It will always be the same relative to the on axis response.

the REASON the B&Ws have such a ragged on axis response isn't because you can EQ them, but because the off axis response is such a mess that they "voiced by ear" to compensate for the bad off axis response.

Good speakers always start at the polar response. You can equalize listening axis response but you're equalizing the off axis response every time you equalize the on axis response. Only if you've got good polar response does "equalizing flat" work.

Now if the B&Ws have polar response that looked like this:



Then yes, even if the on axis response sucked, you could EQ the on axis FLAT. But the B&W polar response doesn't look like that.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
each one is good enough to give any other a run for its money.
Indeed. Even if "cost is no object", does it make any sense to spend $65000k on a pair of speakers that, to your ears, sound the same as a $8000 pair of speakers? You need to audition for yourself to determine what you want!!

And a special thanks on the recommendation about the sub. Am seriously considering the funky waves one .But am really skeptical about putting 4 in one room. But its seriously worth a consideration although I was planning for 2 subs.
It's all about setup, EQ, and level matching. As I said earlier, I recommend 6 or even 8 subs in one room. You might never use the full potential of them, but they'll be so underutilized that there won't be any audible distortion - it will sound unbelievably clean. Just because you have more subs, does not mean they will be "louder" on average. They will just be more capable of loudness PEAKS which are RECORDED in the content material. If you're going all out, it doesn't make sense to be limited on subwoofers.

The best systems always use at least 3 subwoofers. It's just a function of how bass works in small rooms.

I am really skeptical about having a large display as I feel that the pixels/granules/particles would appear scattered and would not look good. About 152 inch Panasonic plasma display I do not know if they sell it and even so it has a res of 4096x2160 4x of full HD .I feel it would seem like watching a .3gp mobile clip on an HDTV where in such a situation no matter what, results are far less than satisfactory. But you got point about light control . Worthy of consideration.
BMXTrix deals with front projection all the time. He's one of our resident experts. Trust him!

1) I was thinking of buying an Yamaha RX A 3000 a/v receiver but now it seems it won’t be enough can you suggest any other perhaps or is this one good enough?
For starters, I don't think you want a processor with a built-in amp. External amps are always a superior choice.

I'm not saying you need to spend an arm and a leg on a processor - quite the contrary actually. I think instead of the RX-A 3000 which costs around $2000 you would be better off with a Marantz AV7005.

The thing about electronics in a true high end setup is that you should be willing to add a ton of extra electronics - don't expect just the processor to handle everything. I would be looking at external video processors, external equalizers like the TACT, DEQX, SVS Audyssey to integrate everything perfectly.

It sounds ironic, but I would want a world class high end processor to do very little - just have tons of pre-out voltage, and a strong phono section. Let all else be done by dedicated electronics - why should my surround processor be worrying about video upscaling or source calibration?

2) I could not find any a/v receiver which can connect 4 subs can any one tell me how the connections will be.? Max found to be 11.2 ch
This must be done externally. A Y splitter, plus two SVS Audyssey units, will allow you to integrate four subwoofers for example. You want to make sure the phase of each sub is aligned with the phase of the other sub, and the global result is equalized for the flattest possible response at multiple seating positions.

3) I was thinking of something else as well If I could use a pc as my video processor connected directly to the projector or tv and sound card connection goes to a/v receiver or preamp .When I say pc I mean a full fledged powerhouse running to max capabilities i.e 8gb graphcs card,sound card,12gb ram and latest processor. What do you think of this idea.? This is an alienware system and available for arnd 8800$ approx.
Alienware are overpriced. I always recommend building PCs yourself. If I WAS getting a commercial PC, I'd get Falcon Northwest to do it. I'm a sucker for their custom paint jobs :D

ALso bear in mind that you want a dead quiet listening/HT room. A PC can have fan noise which is counterproductive. If using an HTPC it must be in a different room. I wouldn't use analog connections to the processor - HDMI all the way.

4) Can I use the floor speakers as rear speakers as well ? will it be a good idea or will it affect the quality of sound?
As long as the room has plenty of room to place speakers, full range speakers are an optimal solution.

5) I need some recommendations regarding surround speakers and bookshelf speakers as well
I would just get whatever goes with the identical front three speakers I chose - maybe even the exact same speakers - or a lesser model if it's too expensve. I would stick to monopole surrounds as well, personally.

I don't know how good Yamaha's YPAO is, but supposedly Audyssey is thus far the best room correction EQing system.
From what I've read (again like you I don't know personally), the high end Harman Room EQ system is the best, but it is only available in the ultra expensive Lexicon and JBL Synthesis processors, which are both pretty overpriced compared to a good cheap processor in source direct mated to external equalizers.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
You can use floor standing speakers as surrounds, in certain situations, but ideally you'll have the surrounds mounted higher up, because many home theater seats will block the path to your ears from the rear in a horizontal plane. In the most ideal surround sound system, all the speakers would be identical. However, the reality is surround channel content is usually pretty insignificant, and not nearly as important as the front stage sound, so you can get away with having lesser speakers for surrounds because you are not likely to notice the difference anyway.
I think there's one problem with mounting surrounds higher up

Vertical polar response is usually a mess in multi way speakers because of driver spacing.

I think only coaxial speakers like the Pioneer EX/TAD and ADTG's KEF Reference offerings have acceptable vertical polar response for mounting on a different vertical plane. Most of us gloss over this because we're cheapwads but I wouldn't even use high-mounted Revel Gem2 speakers if cost wasn't an object, I would definitely use high end coaxials like the TAD Compact Reference, Pioneer S-2EX or KEF 201/2 if I was mounting above (or below) ear level
 
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akshay

Audioholic Intern
about the kipnis theater & pc

I have reviewed this before as well and would like to say the system is too much overkill for my requirements this is for the following reasons

1) The room they tested it in is 2250 sq ft whereas i have a room of 900 sq ft (big difference)

2)I do not want such huge loudspeakers as i will have my niece and nephew playing games like mario in this room. They are around 6&7 resp i do not want to scare them with the sound output.

3)@bmxtrix i am considering the video setup that they have mentioned so want to ask you if these kind of projectors are right for my room distance or is it overkill. Check their standard equipment page i am sorry since i am new cannot post links here
and what size screen do u recommend ?

any one else want to give your opinions on this equipment are also welcome

4) I was really considering the pc to play pc games that i already have so i need not buy the ps3 version of the games unnecessarily . Does it make too much noise that will affect my music ??

PS what are your opinions about speakers like jamo, rbh sound, snell
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I didn't know you could equalize polar response!
This is true, but in a 30' room, chances are all listening positions will be fairly on axis.

I think there's one problem with mounting surrounds higher up

Vertical polar response is usually a mess in multi way speakers because of driver spacing.
I didn't know that. Is this due to the reflections off the ceiling? It seems to me that if the speaker isn't too close to the ceiling and is a monopole aimed roughly at the listener's ear, the response shouldn't be anything unusual.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
4) I was really considering the pc to play pc games that i already have so i need not buy the ps3 version of the games unnecessarily . Does it make too much noise that will affect my music ??

PS what are your opinions about speakers like jamo, rbh sound, snell
Heavy duty PCs make noise. They don't have to make a racket though, there are ways of reducing the loudness. Here is a terrific website devoted to doing exactly that. Maybe a solution is to give a custom PC builder like these guys a call and see if they can make you a powerful computer that isn't distractingly loud.

I don't know anything about high end Jamo speakers, but RBH and Snell are respected brands. Personally, however, I would be much more eager to give top-of-the-line JBL or Klipsch a listen, but that is just my personal preference and I am more interested in powerful dynamics.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Now if the B&Ws have polar response that looked like this:



Then yes, even if the on axis response sucked, you could EQ the on axis FLAT. But the B&W polar response doesn't look like that.
Didn't you learn in Loudspeaker Design 101 that cabinet resonance is what matters most?:D

Don't put your money into Frequency Response and Polar Response. The money is all in the cabinets and the diamonds.:D

I'm really disappointed in B&W.

What a shame. That cabinet looks really nice and shiny too.

Just when PENG thought he was out, they pulled him back in.:eek::D

I can't wait to see what PENG says when he comes home tonight after work and checks out the forum.:D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For processors, I would be looking at the Denon AVP-A1HDCI most likely. Not the absolute most modern unit in terms of features, but it's very top end and very customizable.
This Fall Denon will upgrade the Denon AVP-A1HDCI & AVR-5308 to have the latest HDMI v1.4a + Audyssey XT32.

I was told by Denon customer service that this would be a firmware only, although I heard previously that it would be both hardware & firmware.

So if you buy, wait until this Fall when Denon has upgraded those already.

If it's a firmware update, I will get it so that I can run Audyssey XT32 on my system and then turn it off again.:eek::D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Didn't you learn in Loudspeaker Design 101 that cabinet resonance is what matters most?:D
No, I learned that the most important thing is being used at Abbey Road studios and using Mundorf caps...and then cabinet resonance ;P
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
This is true, but in a 30' room, chances are all listening positions will be fairly on axis.
Au contraire, the more farfield you get the more reflections dominate sound. the B&W reflections are undesirable because the polars are so random!

I didn't know that. Is this due to the reflections off the ceiling? It seems to me that if the speaker isn't too close to the ceiling and is a monopole aimed roughly at the listener's ear, the response shouldn't be anything unusual.
Ceiling reflections and lobing and any other reflections all co tribute.

You can aim a monopole down but will its axis be the same for all the seats? Imo good coax surrounds just make sense if it's not ear level or even if it is.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No, I learned that the most important thing is being used at Abbey Road studios and using Mundorf caps...and then cabinet resonance ;P
All excellent points.

If it's not recorded at Abbey Road studios, it's not even worth listening to!:eek:

Did B&W use to make great speakers in the past???:confused:

How did they become so popular if they measure like their flagship 800 Diamond???:confused:

Sounding good is one thing, but when you don't live up to expectations on the measurements, won't people get disappointed?

I thought this was funny how Kal Rubinson wrote about B&W 800s:

"I've adapted to their slight emphasis of the high frequencies and their upper-bass ripeness; they, in turn, have blended comfortably into my room's décor."

"As for the Revel Ultima2 Studio...I recall it sounding as open and balanced as the B&W 800D, but with a bit less focus in the extreme HF."


Does that mean the 800D sounded harsh on the HF?

I hope Soundstage/NRC gets a pair of 800 Diamond to review & measure.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
"I've adapted to their slight emphasis of the high frequencies and their upper-bass ripeness; they, in turn, have blended comfortably into my room's décor."


Are you implying that people only buy those B&W speakers because they look like Kenny from south park IN YOUR LIVING ROOM?
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
But this room is still in its architectural phase. ...
If at all possible, change the room dimension from a square room to a rectangle. Square rooms add acoustic issues to the problem.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
2)I do not want such huge loudspeakers as i will have my niece and nephew playing games like mario in this room. They are around 6&7 resp i do not want to scare them with the sound output.
People are starting to get a bit crazy with their recommendations. I would strongly encourage you to hire someone who can focus on the acoustical nature of your room to ensure that you are getting the highest possible quality between both the speakers and the acoustics of the room. You don't have to go with crazy speakers, but I would recommend 2 18" speakers to provide equal bass in the room which adds a presence, especially to movies and video games. It won't be 'boomy', but will be smooth. Like being a part of a ocean liner - you know the engines are there because of the feel, not because of how boomy they are. Good bass should NEVER impose on a good setup, and good bass is far more expensive than boomy bass.

Once again, this falls under the room setup and decor, which an experienced and qualified designer can put together.

Heck, live around DC, give me a call. ;)

3)@bmxtrix i am considering the video setup that they have mentioned so want to ask you if these kind of projectors are right for my room distance or is it overkill. Check their standard equipment page i am sorry since i am new cannot post links here
and what size screen do u recommend ?
Not sure which one you are referring to. Digital Projection makes some top shelf 3-chip DLP projectors. They provide some of the best image quality you will see in front projection... they have a premium price tag, but can provide a solid image, depending on their make/model up to and beyond a couple hundred inches.

So, the screen size is all determined by viewing distance. Your room is 30' deep. Where do you want to sit? If you want tiered seating with 3 rows, then seating may begin at 12-15 feet and a second, primary row, at about 20'. Realistically, you want a screen 12'8" wide.

That's a 174" diagonal, and from your primary viewing, the image will look razor sharp!

Something in this magnitude would be a seriously high quality product:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Digital_Projection-HIGHlite_Cine_260.htm

As I said before, you should get the A/V equipment OUT of the room, so if it were my space, I would seriously consider putting together a closet somewhere in the room to house the equipment in a proper equipment rack. Perhaps going so far as to build out the rear wall to house the projector and all the gear out of site, with zero noise, and zero impact on the room.

I would also recommend that you treat the room like a proper theater, and add proper lighting, the acoustical treatments (as mentioned before) and dark decor. Dark furniture, carpet, walls, and ceiling does not mean the room has to be dark if the lights are adequate for the room!

It really sounds to me like you want really good gear, but think it can just go into the room and sound good. Nothing could be further from the truth. The best gear will not sound, or look good, in a poorly designed room, which is why there needs to be added emphasis and consideration on your part to highering someone experienced to ensure that your room is first and foremost the right space to reproduce the audio and video you intend to enjoy.

Since it hasn't been mentioned, a killer remote is a must to make it so everyone can use the room easily. I use Crestron in my home and my 4 year old has no issue running any of the 4 TVs in our home.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Are you implying that people only buy those B&W speakers because they look like Kenny from south park IN YOUR LIVING ROOM?
Oh, hey, I do think those B&W 800 Diamond speakers look cute and adorable.:D

If I had a $7,000,000 budget, I would get those 800 Ds and place them strategically around the house just for decor.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
People are starting to get a bit crazy with their recommendations.
Well, duh!

If you had a $7,000,000 home theater budget, wouldn't you go crazy?:eek:

I would go coo-coo-for coco puffs.:eek::D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
People are starting to get a bit crazy with their recommendations. I You don't have to go with crazy speakers, but I would recommend 2 18" speakers to provide equal bass in the room which adds a presence, especially to movies and video games.
Come on now, two?

at least three or four.

And with 8 strategically placed, I bet you could get +/- 2db BASS tolerance from 5hz to 150hz!
 
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akshay

Audioholic Intern
Hey thanks bmxtrix i think i will look for 2 tier seating arrangement as i wont have many people watching movies with, me most of the time there will be 3 only me and my parents. i am interested in both the 3 chip projectors (will buy either one of course meridian or sony)

@acudeftechguy heck no i am not going to use any kind of speakers for decor only.If they are not appealing to my ears, they are out. As simple as that.

@bmxtrix I like the idea of making a cabinet or rear wall to isolate the noisy equipment for which consulting a pro is a must. They can suggest a better design.

@mtrycrafts may be i ought to make it a 30x35 room need to contact the architect though

@acudeftechguy maybe the b&w speakers are good in fact great but might not be the best.But in my opinion instead of focussing more on tech aspects like freq reaponse or polar response it is better to listen to them.
 
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