Onkyo and others are on a "race to the bottom"

J

jpinard

Audiophyte
* Onkyo
* Sony
* Denon
* Pioneer
* Harmon Kardon

The following manfuacturers listed above are in an epic "race to the bottom"... a race that ends in a trash heap. All 5 have been implciated by repair centers as using the chepaest and worst quality capacitors, resistors, and poor cooling (and of course fauly daughterboards) miore than any other group in the $300-$600 rangs (and higher for many of them).

Unlike a motherboard pucrhase, if there are great quality parts (Japanese Capacitors ie. NO CHINESE CAPACITORS) it is proudly displauyed on the box and in marketing material. None of this exists in the Receiver makers.

So I have to replace my dead Onkyo, and I really wanted a Pioneer 1st, then maybe a Denon 2nd, then a Yamaha if I couldn't find something reliable. Problme with Yamaha is NO audio leveling programs like Audyyesy.

Any suggests? Price range is $300-$600
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
* Onkyo
* Sony
* Denon
* Pioneer
* Harmon Kardon

The following manfuacturers listed above are in an epic "race to the bottom"... a race that ends in a trash heap. All 5 have been implciated by repair centers as using the chepaest and worst quality capacitors, resistors, and poor cooling (and of course fauly daughterboards) miore than any other group in the $300-$600 rangs (and higher for many of them).

Unlike a motherboard pucrhase, if there are great quality parts (Japanese Capacitors ie. NO CHINESE CAPACITORS) it is proudly displauyed on the box and in marketing material. None of this exists in the Receiver makers.

So I have to replace my dead Onkyo, and I really wanted a Pioneer 1st, then maybe a Denon 2nd, then a Yamaha if I couldn't find something reliable. Problme with Yamaha is NO audio leveling programs like Audyyesy.

Any suggests? Price range is $300-$600
With the current economics of the electronics industry you absolutely need to avoid receivers in that price range.

I would say mid price is now over $1200. I would say actually to set your sights in the $1500 to $2500 range now.

The case for separates is even stronger.

I would go with a good pre pro and external amps.

Junk is well and truly entrenched now. Buying junk is the most expensive purchase.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I think it's normal to be disappointed when products don't last as long as they used to, but you also need to think about how long you want it to last. With fairly frequent updates in audio processing and connections these past few years, you may not want to use the same receiver for ten years. Heck, I kind of wish that the $1000 Yamaha that I bought in 1998 would have broken down because then I wouldn't have waited until 2005ish to get a $450 Pioneer VSX-1015 that blew it out of the water. :)

I bought a Pioneer Elite for ~$900 back in 2009 to step up to HDMI and the newer audio codecs, and I've been really happy with it except that a row of buttons on the remote is hard to activate anymore. I could have gotten the model below it and been just as happy, but I decided to splurge. I moved away from the less expensive Pioneer 1000 series because they didn't have all the features that I wanted (12V triggers or at least an A/C outlet, in particular, for triggering my amps), not because I thought they were less reliable.

So, think about what features you want and see which receivers match those. Also, think about the total cost of buying a relatively inexpensive unit every X many years (because it broke down or because you want new features) versus buying one that cost Y times as much and then feeling compelled to keep it Y*X many years. You might find that refreshing less expensive products works out better for you.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think it's normal to be disappointed when products don't last as long as they used to, but you also need to think about how long you want it to last. With fairly frequent updates in audio processing and connections these past few years, you may not want to use the same receiver for ten years. Heck, I kind of wish that the $1000 Yamaha that I bought in 1998 would have broken down because then I wouldn't have waited until 2005ish to get a $450 Pioneer VSX-1015 that blew it out of the water. :)

I bought a Pioneer Elite for ~$900 back in 2009 to step up to HDMI and the newer audio codecs, and I've been really happy with it except that a row of buttons on the remote is hard to activate anymore. I could have gotten the model below it and been just as happy, but I decided to splurge. I moved away from the less expensive Pioneer 1000 series because they didn't have all the features that I wanted (12V triggers or at least an A/C outlet, in particular, for triggering my amps), not because I thought they were less reliable.

So, think about what features you want and see which receivers match those. Also, think about the total cost of buying a relatively inexpensive unit every X many years (because it broke down or because you want new features) versus buying one that cost Y times as much and then feeling compelled to keep it Y*X many years. You might find that refreshing less expensive products works out better for you.
Welcome back to the forums Adam! It will be nice to have help again with the heavy lifting.

I have to disagree with your post above. It is a bad plan all the way around.

First of all, this rapid failure and obsolescence is a real environmental problem. Electronic recycling is largely myth.

Next this approach consumes scarce resources at an alarming rate, and is contributing already to shortage of raw materials, and components causing a run up in prices.

So you have a vicious circle of excess use of resources contributing to higher costs, and ever more junk to maintain price points. This is a very bad and untenable situation.

The next issue is that the Chinese economy is overheating and there is inflation taking off. Chinese goods will not be so cheap anymore, without further descending into worse junk.

I would submit that the HT technology is now at a mature point.

We have discrete loss less codecs that work well, and very adequate video resolution. Most of the obsolescent nonsense is now to do with DRM.

I think you are safe now buying gear for the longer term, and now is the time to do it, because of the above considerations.

You do not tire of good gear. The longer I have a piece of equipment the better I tend to like it.

I will not ever be parting with my amp case. I can tell you that. I hope my AVR 8003 lasts for many years. It does all I need and more.

The only piece of equipment I'm likely to add will be an HTPC. When I do, It will have the highest build quality possible.

I design the equipment that I personally build for the long term. I doubt I will ever tire of this speaker system.

Planning and building for the long term, makes more sense now than it ever did.

So my maxim stands, avoid junk at all costs and wait until you can afford to avoid it.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Welcome back to the forums Adam! It will be nice to have help again with the heavy lifting.

I have to disagree with your post above. It is a bad plan all the way around.

First of all, this rapid failure and obsolescence is a real environmental problem. Electronic recycling is largely myth.

Next this approach consumes scarce resources at an alarming rate, and is contributing already to shortage of raw materials, and components causing a run up in prices.

So you have a vicious circle of excess use of resources contributing to higher costs, and ever more junk to maintain price points. This is a very bad and untenable situation.

The next issue is that the Chinese economy is overheating and there is inflation taking off. Chinese goods will not be so cheap anymore, without further descending into worse junk.

I would submit that the HT technology is now at a mature point.

We have discrete loss less codecs that work well, and very adequate video resolution. Most of the obsolescent nonsense is now to do with DRM.

I think you are safe now buying gear for the longer term, and now is the time to do it, because of the above considerations.

You do not tire of good gear. The longer I have a piece of equipment the better I tend to like it.

I will not ever be parting with my amp case. I can tell you that. I hope my AVR 8003 lasts for many years. It does all I need and more.

The only piece of equipment I'm likely to add will be an HTPC. When I do, It will have the highest build quality possible.

I design the equipment that I personally build for the long term. I doubt I will ever tire of this speaker system.

Planning and building for the long term, makes more sense now than it ever did.

So my maxim stands, avoid junk at all costs and wait until you can afford to avoid it.
I think TLS is right on many points, but one: HT Manufactures don't want you to have same piece of equipment for years - the only solution for gradual upgrade path is separates, unfortunately this is very tiny and highly overpriced market. They will go out and make sure your current equipment will be old in 2 years and obsolete in 5-6 that's regardless on current baseline features (like lossless audio and 1080p)
What seems like "very adequate video resolution" today most likely will be VHS like compared to Ultra HD which already producing concept models.

Will all my desire to invest into initial high quality and expensive product and hold onto it for year, current reality is 100% opposes this model, unfortunately. No one can stop the tech progress and who knows what will be the standard in 10 years.....

(Speakers I thing are different story since speaker technology hasn't really changed all that much in last (at least) 30 years)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks, Mark!

I won't argue regarding resources and sustainability, that's for sure. I wish that recycling was more efficient, but it's certainly much more so than a few years ago. I suppose the silverlining is that we're creating the mines of the future to give our grandchildren jobs. :) I certainly like the idea of separates, but a couple of years ago when I was looking, pre-pros cost more than my Pioneer Elite receiver, and I think that I got more of what I wanted for less money.

I would disagree that HT technology is mature, though. It's easy to think that, and then something revolutionary (and not just evolutionary) comes along. I remember thinking how CRTs weren't going to get any better, so I bought a nice one. "Oh, what's this? Flat panel monitors? Dang. Well, at least my hoard of DVDs will still keep me happy. Wait, what? 1920x1080? Dang. Surely my Dolby Digital and newly acquired DTS surround sound will be the peak for years to...what?!? New codecs...AND auto calibration? I give up. Where's my check book?"

I was extremely happy with my 27" CRT TV until I bought my 50" plasma, and then I finally realized just how much better the new technology was. I was mostly happy with my Yamaha, but the Pioneer with auto calibration made my speakers sound sooo much nicer. I mean, night and day better. So, yeah, it's easy (at least for me) to be content with what I have, but sometimes the new stuff truly does offer a much better experience.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Honestly I have no desire to ever buy a receiver again. DRM is the only reason I need one now. I would rather build my own amp box and use a HTPC as my media machine, but DRM makes that nearly impossible to do well.

The days of society advancing are slowing down fast in electronics. We are very near the atomic limits of transistor size and the heat is barely tolerable. I think device integration will continue to be the forward moving industry with phones eventually replacing PCs and TVs. I've hear projectors are already on the board for phones in a couple of generations and the tablet may well replace the PC altogether with maturity.

We have a ways to go, but things are radically shifting soon. China is most certainly in a position to demand more of us economically, but the economy will likely take a more globally equalizing shift between powers IMO.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
We are very near the atomic limits of transistor size and the heat is barely tolerable.
Once the industry switches from silicon to diamond, heat issues will drop substantially. Plus, there's surely other approaches coming in the future - both in materials and fundamental processes.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Once the industry switches from silicon to diamond, heat issues will drop substantially. Plus, there's surely other approaches coming in the future - both in materials and fundamental processes.
current 22nm tech process is too slow, we need to Ludicrous process. :rolleyes::D

Ludicrous process is go now !
 
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J

jpinard

Audiophyte
Sorry for all the typos in my first thread. It was very late when I posted.

So I'm in a huge bind. My spending limit is $600 (which is really way more than I should spend), so what should I purchase with this in mind? I kind of need something that does everything.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Sorry for all the typos in my first thread. It was very late when I posted.

So I'm in a huge bind. My spending limit is $600 (which is really way more than I should spend), so what should I purchase with this in mind? I kind of need something that does everything.
There is not everything for $600, but there possibly $600 model which everything YOU need....?
You should also take a note that manufacturer refub $600 from ac4l.com would be better bang for a buck than new $600 unit...
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
+1 for Denon 3310
(Sorry ADTG) - almost same deal, but from authorized Denon dealer, $450 w/shipping vs $442 on ElectroTech
Con: only 45 hours left on the deal...

http://www.ecost.com/p/Denon-Consumer-Electronics/product~dpno~8574131~pdp.ggaaggj
eCost & Dakmart are authorized Refurbished dealers with a 90 day refurbished warranty. The stores on amazon are authorized dealers; some for new new and like-new products with the full manufacturer 1 yr warranty; some are also refurbished authorized.

In 2010, I bought some refurbished Denons from eCost. I believe a 2310, 3808, 4308, 4810, and even a AVP-A1HDCI!

All of them were defective upon arrival.:eek:

Yes, 100% of them were defective!:eek:

Even the AVP-A1HDCI was defective!!! It would not output any signal to my amp, balanced or unbalanced.

I had to buy a brand new AVP-A1HD from my local dealer.

So I would personally never buy any more refurbished from ANYONE.

ECost has scared my trust for any refurbished AVR for life. I will never be the same.:eek:

So I would never recommend from eCost ever again.
 
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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
The following manfuacturers listed above are in an epic "race to the bottom"... a race that ends in a trash heap. All 5 have been implciated by repair centers as using the chepaest and worst quality capacitors, resistors, and poor cooling (and of course fauly daughterboards) miore than any other group in the $300-$600 rangs (and higher for many of them).
Where did you see this? Do you have a link to an article? I’d sure like to see it, and I’m sure everyone else here would, too.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
* Onkyo
* Sony
* Denon
* Pioneer
* Harmon Kardon

The following manfuacturers listed above are in an epic "race to the bottom"... a race that ends in a trash heap. All 5 have been implciated by repair centers as using the chepaest and worst quality capacitors, resistors, and poor cooling (and of course fauly daughterboards) miore than any other group in the $300-$600 rangs (and higher for many of them).

Unlike a motherboard pucrhase, if there are great quality parts (Japanese Capacitors ie. NO CHINESE CAPACITORS) it is proudly displauyed on the box and in marketing material. None of this exists in the Receiver makers.

So I have to replace my dead Onkyo, and I really wanted a Pioneer 1st, then maybe a Denon 2nd, then a Yamaha if I couldn't find something reliable. Problme with Yamaha is NO audio leveling programs like Audyyesy.

Any suggests? Price range is $300-$600
The AVR comparison misses some primary feature points.. :rolleyes:
For example, for the HK 2650 there is no mention of Dolby Volume or the HD video playback capability of an iDevice. Both costly and interesting features..

Regarding comments by the Service Centers are mostly highly biased..
The primary AVR brands have continued to negotiate downward their warranty rates as the Service Centers much rather do out-of-warranty repairs than in-warranty. For your information a typical warranty bench rate for just changing out a fuse is $52, that takes about 10 minutes... :confused:

The pertinent point to keep in mind, comparing AVRs and their respective market costs is that they are purchased form the Orient in either Japanese yen or Chinese RMB foreign currencies. And that the value of our US $ has eroded downward in value almost 40% over the last 2 years.. :eek:
So the brands responded by decreasing certain costly internal components and materials, hoping the consumer will not notice this..
Pay now or pay later..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
B

bikdav

Senior Audioholic
I understand the dilemma. I've been seeing this bad trend also. I may just go the separates route again. I also may buy myself a reasonable laptop and connect it to the system. Why? Some of my favorite programs are not locally available. Have you ever heard of the internet?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think TLS is right on many points, but one: HT Manufactures don't want you to have same piece of equipment for years - the only solution for gradual upgrade path is separates, unfortunately this is very tiny and highly overpriced market. They will go out and make sure your current equipment will be old in 2 years and obsolete in 5-6 that's regardless on current baseline features (like lossless audio and 1080p)
What seems like "very adequate video resolution" today most likely will be VHS like compared to Ultra HD which already producing concept models.

Will all my desire to invest into initial high quality and expensive product and hold onto it for year, current reality is 100% opposes this model, unfortunately. No one can stop the tech progress and who knows what will be the standard in 10 years.....

(Speakers I thing are different story since speaker technology hasn't really changed all that much in last (at least) 30 years)
I doubt in the domestic situation going above 1080p will bring much benefit.

As far as sound is concerned discrete loss less seven channels with extended frequency response is going to be adequate now and into the future.

I don't think adding height channels will catch on. Talking of that, my rig gives excellent height localization with a standard configuration.

There is a huge chorus in Tannhauser that has a trumpet fanfare right up in the heights of the Festspielhaus in Baden Baden. The trumpets come from way up in the heights on this rig.

I used this as a demo recently and the visitor was looking for the height speakers! I have other examples also. So in a good system there is enough information in the seven channels to project audio images all over the place.

What it really boils down to is having really good core functions. The better the rig the less the need for bells and whistles.

You need smooth frequency response, low distortion, superior signal to noise, huge headroom, wide dynamic range, accurate decoding, good ergonomics and a good selection of inputs and that's about it really.

For power amps you need lots of power and for it to be very unfussy about load. You want them rock solid stable with very low distortion and good signal to noise ratio.

I hardly use my pre pro remote. The two knobs on my Marantz AV 8003 do most of the work one as the selector, the other volume.

As far as Audyssey is concerned, the only benefit I got was setting the delays. That was an audible benefit as it takes account of delays due to factors other than distance.

My test gear had already done the leveling. The frequency response correction was a negative.

I really encourage more people to look at separates. The power amps of receivers are really puny. Most have their speakers seriously underpowered. I'm pretty sure I would cook a receiver in one evening of grand opera.

So it would have to be something really spectacular to make me change my pre/pro for anything other than failure.

Core functions are what counts. I can play a 50 year old turntable with a forty year old cartridge and arm and still get results that will best most systems.

Good gear is highly resistant to becoming obsolete.

I really dislike the idea of having to change equipment every year or two.

I already had to change a pre pro once because of HDMI issues, and the loss less codecs. That Rotel unit was also poor in some core functions.

The unit I have now has excellent core functions and unless it blows up, it stays.

Consumers need to educate themselves better on what core functions are and their importance to sound quality. We would be better of with fewer functions at the lower price point and put the money where it counts.

For that matter I suspect most would get far better results with a two channel system, with good amplification and two really good speakers, than having eight budget speakers and a poor receiver.

I have a very good two channel system downstairs and it is very effective.

So if the budget is tight invest in core functions not over the top functionality.
 
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