Budding Audiophile Seeks Speaker Guidance--Details Inside

K

kryptonian

Audiophyte
Hello and thank you for taking the time to read this thread. I am new to the world of quality home theater audio and am currently trying to decide on a speaker brand. I have demoed several brands so far and, thankfully, have been able to rule a few out. I have spent many weeks learning what I can on my own, but am now at the point where I need the advice of more experienced audiophiles to guide me.

I have a 12x12 living room with a 54" Panasonic VT25. The system will be used for somewhere around 70% movies and 30% music. Movies are my primary concern, but I would like for it to sound good on music as well. After all, the music in film soundtracks is an essential element of the viewing experience. The system will start as a 5.1, due to limited space at this time, but will eventually become a 7.1 when we move in a few months. I will have a separate, powered sub, and have not determined which brand it will be yet, although I'm looking at the $500 price range for it. Additionally, again, due to space limitations, I will need to go with bookshelf speakers for the fronts. As for the two rear channels, my couch is up against the wall in the back of the room and really cannot be moved, so I'm unsure of the speaker type and placement that I should go with. Everything will be powered by the Onkyo 3008.

From Magnolia's offerings, I was able to narrow things down to B&W and MartinLogan. As for the B&W, I listened to the 685B fronts with an HTM61B center channel. For the MartinLogans, I listened to the Motion 4s in front with a Motion 8 center channel. My findings may give you an idea of my personal preference and help you steer me in the right direction. I found the B&W to give a pretty good sound, with dialogue quality being its high point for me. The dialogue was clear, though just a little unnatural-sounding. As for the MartinLogans, the dialogue was good, but not as clear as the B&W. Dialogue clarity is very important to me because, due to a minor hearing problem, I sometimes have trouble understanding the occasional word or words when there is an ambient sound of some sort playing at the same time.

The MartinLogans actually offered something important to me as well, which was emphasized during a particular sound effect. The demo being used was Tron: Legacy, and there is a part in the first bike scene when one bike jumps over the other in slow motion. With the B&Ws, I heard the sound of the bike, and it was fine. With the MartinLogans, however, I could not only hear the sound as part of the film, I could "feel" it, as if the bike actually was nearby. It was a very natural sound for a bike, though, and not overdone at all.

What I really need is the best of both worlds here--a system that will give me very natural and clear dialogue, as well as giving me a balanced and as-intended punch on sound effects that call for it. I would like to stress that, just as I'm not interested in anything underdone or overly-restrained, I also don't want anything overdone or unnatural. Budget-wise, I'm looking to stay in the range of the aforementioned speakers, so basically around $1500 total for the fronts, center, and two surrounds. I could probably manage just a bit more if necessary.

The other brands that are available for me to demo within a "fairly reasonable" driving distance are NHT, Paradigm, KEF, Boston Acoustics, PSB, and Monitor Audio. Would any of these brands be good choices for my personal preferences and requirements? Would any of them absolutely not be? Any that I could exclude would be helpful since I live in the middle of nowhere and am looking at a 300-mile trip to several cities just to demo these few brands.

Thank you so much for any help and advice you can give. I'm holding off on watching many of my favorite films until I get the system installed and I'm so excited to be closing in on the final steps!!
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
3 of these for mains
2 of these for surrounds

To audition these you will need to find a PRO AUDIO shop, not a Hi-Fi shop.

I will add this - when it comes to horizontal center channel speakers, KEF's approach is a good one (coaxial flanked by dual woofers) and I know a few people here are fans of KEF speakers. They may be just what you're looking for so audition away.

Don't budget too much to surrounds. The front three are significantly more important and if you need to compromise on surrounds to get better fronts, do it! Where abouts are you located, exactly?
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The other brands that are available for me to demo within a "fairly reasonable" driving distance are NHT, Paradigm, KEF, Boston Acoustics, PSB, and Monitor Audio. Would any of these brands be good choices for my personal preferences and requirements? Would any of them absolutely not be? Any that I could exclude would be helpful since I live in the middle of nowhere and am looking at a 300-mile trip to several cities just to demo these few brands.
They are good choices - audition and find out, the one that stands out for you.
 
XEagleDriver

XEagleDriver

Audioholic Chief
Wait until after you move!

. . . I have a 12x12 living room with a 54" Panasonic VT25. The system will be used for somewhere around 70% movies and 30% music. Movies are my primary concern, but I would like for it to sound good on music as well. After all, the music in film soundtracks is an essential element of the viewing experience. The system will start as a 5.1, due to limited space at this time, but will eventually become a 7.1 when we move in a few months.

. . .Budget-wise, I'm looking to stay in the range of the aforementioned speakers, so basically around $1500 total for the fronts, center, and two surrounds. I could probably manage just a bit more if necessary.

. . . Thank you so much for any help and advice you can give. I'm holding off on watching many of my favorite films until I get the system installed and I'm so excited to be closing in on the final steps!!
FWIW: If I was only a few months away from a move, I would not buy speakers until after the move because the new room's acoustics will be much different than the old (especially a 12' square!) and this could significantly change my speaker choice.

A second reason (a distant 2nd) is there is no need to risk speaker/cabinet damage during the move for just a few months of use.

Given that your planned usage is the same, the room drives the speaker choice, which in turn drives the amp/AVR choice.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver
 
B

bikemig

Audioholic Chief
It can be tough picking out speakers when you are having trouble auditioning them. I only had around 4 good quality speaker lines to choose from that I could listen to locally (B&W, PSB, Paradigm, and NHT) and I ended going with the PSB Image T-6. That said, I really liked the other speakers including the NHT. There are internet direct vendors that will pay the return shipping (some don't) that you could check out; NHT does and it's 5.1 complete system fits your budget.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, I would wait until the move also.

HT gears are a lot to move around. Save the trouble.:D

Just for kicks, let us look at the B&W 805D bookshelf speakers, which costs $2,500 each, or $12,500 for five speakers:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-805-diamond-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

The 805D’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +4.84/–2.06 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

This translates into WTF!!!#!#@!#**#!:eek::D



Now let's look at the $175 NHT Absolute Zero:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/nht-absolute-zero-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

The Absolute Zero’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.94/–0.82 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3-dB point is at 83 Hz...

This translates into "Oh, yeah, now that is a SUPER accurate speaker that B&W needs to learn from!":D

I would set the crossover to 100Hz on the AVR.

Five of these NHT Absolute Zero is $200 x 5 = $1,000 delivered:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NHTAZ SWHT

They used to be $175 on Amazon. You might want to wait for the price to go back down.

Now if your budget is $500 for subwoofers, I would get 2 of these BIC PL-200 subwoofers:

http://www.sounddistributors.com/buynow.asp?action=detail&prid=526&crid=291&cat_name=Search

If you use the Price Offer feature or just give them a phone call or email, the delivered price to your front door is $279 each. If you tell them you want 2 of them, they may even give you a little more discount.:D

Dual subwoofers will increase sound quality; they balance and flatten out frequency response for more accurate sound, especially in a larger room when you move.

These PL-200 subwoofers are designed by HSU Research, so they are essentially HSU subwoofers. Compare the back of the HSU subs and the PL-200 and you will see they are extremely a like.

Total = $1,558 for 5.2 system, all in Piano Black High-Gloss finish (speakers + subwoofers).





Bottom line is, definitely audition every option.
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
In a 12x12 room, I would go 3.1 for now - I would buy the surrounds
when you move. I do like NHT - however, I am beginning to get some
what discouraged, with their price increases.
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
Prices on the NHT won't go back down...

And this is the second time in less than 8 months they have increased.

Prices went up just prior to Christmas 2010:
Absolute Zero - $150 to $175
Absolute Center - $199 to $249
Classic 2 - $249 - $275
2C - $299 to $350
Classic 3 - $349 to $375
3C - $399 to $450

And they just went up again July 1:
Absolute Zero - $175 to $199
Absolute Center - $249 to $299
Classic 2 - $275 to $299
2C - $350 to $399
Classic 3 - $375 to $399
3C - $450 to $499

So basically, in 7 months or so, each bookshelf speaker has increased $50 per speaker, and the centers have gone up $100 per speaker.

NHT is claiming they put off the prices increases almost a year and couldn't hold them any longer.... citing rising costs of materials and fuel as the culprit. On facebook, they even commented on how their current prices still offer a value compared to former retail pricing, and how if they were still B&M prices would be higher.

I call BS. Prices are going up for everyone, but not everyone is jacking prices up this much.

Besides, NHT currently doesn't have the overhead they did in 2007 when they were a B&M store, so of course the prices should be cheaper now. But they aren't far off from getting right back to their former B&M pricing. What gets me even more is that they're still selling designs that were released on 2006, so it's not like their investing more in new speaker designs (excluding the new subs... and don't count the Super Zero 2.0 as a new design... that's minor tweaking of an old cheap-to-produce design that was a money maker for NHT).

Call me the skeptic... but I see it as they re-established a customer base when they came back in 2009 with pricing that was the same as the "closeout" pricing before going temporarily out of business... and now feel they can get away with charging more for the same speakers... Yes I believe costs went up to them... but their price increases in just 7 months are steep IMO.
 
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A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
Anyway, to get back on track with this thread... I think NHT makes some nice products... but, I just can't recommend them at the current pricing.

I own the Absolute Zero's, and think they're very nice speakers... but I would NOT pay $400 for them. I also currently have a TwoC I'm demo'ing (although I might send it back)... and likewise... nice speaker, but no way I'd pay $400 for it.

The sound is good, but the value is disappearing IMO. There are alot of other good speakers out there, and deals can always be had. Hell, at one point I bought 3 used Ascend Sierra-1's $900... with about 6 years left on the transferrable warranty. IMO, that setup for $900 is a way better value (and just flat out better) than the AZ/2C for $800.

If you find you really like NHT, don't buy at full price. You should be able to get 20% off from some of there authorized "Internet Retailers," and free shipping to boot.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
NHT is claiming they put off the prices increases almost a year and couldn't hold them any longer.... citing rising costs of materials and fuel as the culprit. On facebook, they even commented on how their current prices still offer a value compared to former retail pricing, and how if they were still B&M prices would be higher.

I call BS. Prices are going up for everyone, but not everyone is jacking prices up this much.
If NHT drivers use Neodymium magnets instead of Ferrite, i completely understand their need to jack up prices. The cost of Neodymium has something like quadrupled :eek: in the last year. many Tang Band neodymium drivers, which used to represent Taiwanese value and cost-to-performance ratio (perhaps at the cost of scandinavian build quality and consistency) are now priced...like scandinavian drivers. :eek:

Eminence neodymium magnet drivers have also skyrocketed. :eek:
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
If NHT drivers use Neodymium magnets instead of Ferrite, i completely understand their need to jack up prices. The cost of Neodymium has something like quadrupled :eek: in the last year. many Tang Band neodymium drivers, which used to represent Taiwanese value and cost-to-performance ratio (perhaps at the cost of scandinavian build quality and consistency) are now priced...like scandinavian drivers. :eek:

Eminence neodymium magnet drivers have also skyrocketed. :eek:
I wasn't aware of this... They do... so perhaps that accounts for some of the price increase...

But alot of manufacturers use neodymium magnets... PSB, for example does... and their retail pricing has not increased... Perhaps they bought a large supply of drivers before the price jumps...

Perhaps NHT manufactures smaller batches at a time... so they're being hit harder by these price jumps...

I don't know... it's all speculation...

Either way... the value of their products is diminishing... my opinion of course...
 
A

alphaiii

Audioholic General
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It almost sounds like we're talking stocks here.:D

I'm not buying NHT, but I was still disappointed this morning when I found out the Absolute Zero when up from $175 to $200.

I think NHT speakers measure quite accurately, with the Absolutely Zero having phenomenal FR, and they sound great.
 
K

kryptonian

Audiophyte
Thank you all for your input. GranteedEV, I am located about 100 miles north of Atlanta, so that's where much of the auditioning will take place. AcuDefTechGuy, thank you for the technical info. Now is the point where I apologize for asking the stupid question: What does the listening-window response translate into in the typical viewing experience? Does it mean better sound dispersion throughout the room? As for the other recommendations, NHT and PSB are definitely on the list and I hope to demo them within the next week. Infinity was actually on the list as well, but they don't seem to have anywhere around that I can listen to them.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
For reference. This driver, last year, used to be about $800 or so.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-674

Thank you all for your input. GranteedEV, I am located about 100 miles north of Atlanta, so that's where much of the auditioning will take place. AcuDefTechGuy, thank you for the technical info. Now is the point where I apologize for asking the stupid question: What does the listening-window response translate into in the typical viewing experience? Does it mean better sound dispersion throughout the room? As for the other recommendations, NHT and PSB are definitely on the list and I hope to demo them within the next week. Infinity was actually on the list as well, but they don't seem to have anywhere around that I can listen to them.
There's definitely gotta be some JBL Pro carrying shop in Atlanta :D You should definitely go try the LSRs out.

As for listening window response, it's a spatial average from on axis to about 15 degrees off axis. It most certainly is a quality measurement, but you should treat it as an on axis measurement. Off axis is relevant out to 60 to 90 degrees, as room reflections affect our perception of sound.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What does the listening-window response translate into in the typical viewing experience?
It's the Frequency Response. As GranteedEV pointed out, it's mainly the on-axis response.

But it is suppose to tell you how accurate a speaker is. The "crucial midrange window" being defined by Home Theater Magazine is from 200Hz - 10kHz.

Perfectly accurate is the flat line +0.0dB/-0.0dB.

So in audio, the standard is +3.00dB/-3.00dB from this reference flat line.

All speakers will interact with their environment to some degree. This includes both the speaker placement and the room acoustics.

To my understanding, a speaker that has an accurate on-axis (o degrees, dead centered) and an accurate off-axis (60 degrees horizontal left and right from dead center and 10 degrees vertical up and down from dead center) frequency response will usually sound great in "most environments". In other words, they tend to be more "forgiving" as far as interacting with the room acoustics and speaker placement.

The take home message is don't buy any speakers that has a tolerance of worse than +/- 3.00dB.:D
 
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