HELP WITH MY BUILD.. RE xxx or TC lms-r

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Hold on a second, I may have gotten the VMP 18" parameters wrong. I think it has more surface area than I modeled.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Okay, so I just don't follow the specs on the VMP 18" - and it looks expensive - so here is the new model:

7.5 cu ft
1 x TC Sounds LMS-R 15"
3 x CSS APR15 with 1100g of added mass each
2nd order high pass filter at 16hz


I feel MUCH more confident with this model. Two of the PRs should fire opposite of each other to cancel out, and the odd one out can fire upwards or.. well anywhere. Just make a rigid, well braced, solid box.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
NOW I know what was wrong my VMP 18 model.

Parts express lists the SD as 194.56
That is a TYPO.

Its actual SD spec is 1194

I knew something wasn't adding up. The CSS Model above will still work as well as anything. I just modeled the VMP 18 with the correct specs.

9 cu ft
1 x TC Sounds LMS-R
2 x TC Sounds VMP 18 + 2kg added mass
14hz high pass filter 2nd order


This will have a tiny bit more deep output down low than than the CSS passives (+2db at 16hz) but less total sensitivty above 18hz. You however also get a true aesthetic match between the cones, if that matters to you.

Both should work exceptionally. I would lean towards the CSS passives as they are cheaper, but that model is pushing the limits of the CSS passive radiators, whereas the TC sounds passives are not even breaking a sweat in terms of excursion and you can probably squeeze a bit more headroom safely out of the amp.

At the end of the day I don't think the TC sounds VMP 18 x 2 is worth more than CSS APR15 x 3, but if they were the same cost I would lean towards the former. They aren't, though.
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Hate to throw this out there:

Mach 5 Audio 18.2.2 IXL. They have a box already done up for 17hz tuning.

$300...
 
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frankie2075

Audioholic Intern
lol its all good... i have looked at them before how are those drivers and have u or anyone u kno used them?
 
F

frankie2075

Audioholic Intern
Okay, so I just don't follow the specs on the VMP 18" - and it looks expensive - so here is the new model:

7.5 cu ft
1 x TC Sounds LMS-R 15"
3 x CSS APR15 with 1100g of added mass each
2nd order high pass filter at 16hz


I feel MUCH more confident with this model. Two of the PRs should fire opposite of each other to cancel out, and the odd one out can fire upwards or.. well anywhere. Just make a rigid, well braced, solid box.
Whats the reason for PR's im new at all this sorry. i was talkin to elemental design about this project cause there the ones who r going to be building my sub pretty much.. they seem like they kno how to build an enclosure. what i was looking to spend is about 1600 to 1800 $. i told them about that PR but they said it would be to expensive. cant i just put the LMS driver in a ported box with out any PR's?
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
lol its all good... i have looked at them before how are those drivers and have u or anyone u kno used them?
Mike P uses them. They are fantastic. Those Dayton's are great drivers too. TC Sounds is the best, but you pay a premium if you get them new.

There are a ton of drivers out there to choose from, but if it helps I use an older TC driver before the LMS and it's a beast. Even if you don't push it you will have a longer lifespan for your subs.

I suggest 2 LMS-R 15s with dual P-Rs make sure you brace the heck out of the box and line the back wall with mineral wool or oc703. If you have the money get the sure thing. P-R builds are much simpler than slot ports.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Whats the reason for PR's im new at all this sorry. i was talkin to elemental design about this project cause there the ones who r going to be building my sub pretty much.. they seem like they kno how to build an enclosure. what i was looking to spend is about 1600 to 1800 $. i told them about that PR but they said it would be to expensive. cant i just put the LMS driver in a ported box with out any PR's?
If ED is going to charge you MORE for a PR (Passive Radiator) designed enclosure than a standard vented enclosure, I would recommend finding someone else to construct your enclosure. A Vented enclosure will require more MDF and end up larger because of the massive amounts of air a proper vent will displace with these type of woofers.

The vented enclosure should cost more and end up larger than one for PRs.

You may want to consult with Funky Waves on an enclosure as well.
 
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frankie2075

Audioholic Intern
from what i have read i thought PR's r really used when you dont have room for a vented encloure? i do have the room for a vented encloure so wouldnt that be a better choice?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Whats the reason for PR's im new at all this sorry.
a vented enclosure will quickly go into port compression. You're the one that said you wanted the deep infrasonics, and that's where the vent is going to compress.

That means your deep output will be limited by the cross surface area of the port, and you may even hear "chuffing".

The only way to get more output out of a port is to have more cross surface area, but then you need a longer pipe to get the same tuning. The resonance of the long pipe drops down to frequencies within the passband of the subwoofer and it will now not sound very good up top.

Passive radiators will give you maximum performance with no vent resonance or port compression. Your only limitations are the excursion limits of the passive radiators themselves.

You also get away with no "vent" air space.

from what i have read i thought PR's r really used when you dont have room for a vented encloure? i do have the room for a vented encloure so wouldnt that be a better choice?
The only advantage of vents over passive radiators is that you save on the cost of the drone cones.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
a
The only advantage of vents over passive radiators is that you save on the cost of the drone cones.
P-Rs roll off faster, but for truly deep infrasonics you need an Infinite baffle sub and they can make bracing more difficult. But rib bracing is unnecessary in a sub because the frequencies played are well below the box resonances. I use mostly corner braces in subs.

Port compression is problematic, but a slot port with an LMS sub at 55" is going to best a lot of other subs. I don't have a modeling software installed on my new HD, but I'll work on one and do some modeling soon.
 
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frankie2075

Audioholic Intern
ok thanks guys appreciate all the help and knowledge
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
P-Rs roll off faster
Yes. 36db/octave vs 24db/octave below tuning. However both systems optimally will use a high pass filter (and general equalization dictated by in-room response) and are not expected to produce too much below tuning (in this case around 15hz).

Bracing is more difficult but not overly so IMO. I disagree that subs don't need cross bracing, because even though the resonances are out of the passband, pressure based vibrations aren't. Not many people build critically damped subs.

Port compression is problematic, but a slot port with an LMS sub at 55" is going to best a lot of other subs. I don't have a modeling software installed on my new HD, but I'll work on one and do some modeling soon.
Tuned to 15hz, let's say

9 cu ft
5.3" x 8.5" x 55" slot port
14.5hz 2nd order high pass filter

Will do about
115.7db at 23hz (driver excursion limited)
115db @ 18hz (vent velocity limited)
108db @ 15hz (vent velocity limited)
107.5db @ 13.5hz (vent velocity limited)


1st port resonance is at 122hz. A 60hz crossover point is nessesary to keep it out of the sub's passband.
Attempting to do louder than that may produce vent compression and chuffing.

If OP has mains which are comfortable down to 35hz or so with high output, it may work.

The passive radiators will allow a higher crossover point because there is no vent resonance. Although I recommend a 6.5 inch box earlier, this time for comparision's sake I will also use an equivalent 9 cu ft box for the passive radiators (which will still be smaller because there is no port) to tune it to 15hz. In retrospect I really don't remember WHY i used a smaller box in the first place... I must have had a reason.

9 cu ft
3 APR15 + 1200 grams added mass
15hz high pass filter

Will do
115.7db at 23hz (driver excursion limited)
116.5db at 18hz (driver excursion limited)
113db at 15hz (PR excursion limited)
109.5db at 13.5hz (PR excursion limited)

I never said the vented box won't perform. Dollar for dollar it may be a better solution. BUt I do think the PR box will have stronger infrasonics.
 
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frankie2075

Audioholic Intern
okay thanks going to go over it with alex from ED let him no.. thanks
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, the used exodus PRs are probably the best overall choice! Too bad you can't source new exodus stuff anymore :(
 

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