Not sure what I need ?

[driscollw]

For the past 8 months or so I have been running a 2.1 system with the following equipment

Pioneer VSX-D711
Pair of TSBL from The Speaker Company
10' powered sub from The Speaker Company

Currently I connect my Acer netbook headphone jack to the AUX and play away. I am in a pretty small room 14X12 so I really am not looking to blow myself out of the room. What I "think" I am looking for is clarity. I normally feed flac to the receiver via 3.5mm/RCA cable. I have been reading a lot about DAC's and separates and started looking in that direction. I have thought about buying a Zotac mini PC unit and feeding optical to the receiver. Then I read about the Emotiva XDA-1 and now I'm thinking connecting USB to a DAC may be better.

I put the system above together for pretty cheap as I picked up my receiver for $50 off Craigslist. I am looking to purchase a step up from what I have an not sure what direction to go. I like the bookshelf speakers and crossing them over at 150Hz and having a powered sub-woofer. I also looking at the DIY speaker kits (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-783) which brings me to the receiver. I am not sure if I simply need a 4ohm amp and just forget about a receiver all together. Something like PC>DAC>AMP>SPR since I don't listen to the radio at all and simply play music from my PC and iPod. Do I even need a Pre-amp if I control audio levels via the PC ? Or is that a bad idea ?

Since I am not rich and need to give you guys some kind of $ I'm going to go with $2000 total. But, I can do it in stages if your suggestions are a little more than the $2000. I really don't mind buying used so that is always an option and I don't need the system tomorrow. I also like to play music low/mid for few hours at a time and sometimes blast that @$$@%# when I am alone in the house. lol.

I like the system I have but, looking for a little more. Maybe my expectation of bookshelf speakers are off and I need to look a floor speakers ?

Thank you for your time.

Happy Memorial Day ! Thank you to all the troops past, present, and future that protect our great nation.

 

[bikemig]

A dac will improve a computer based playback system. There are other tweaks you could do but you will notice the difference in SQ once you add a dac to your system. You do not want to control the volume from your computer since that removes 1s and 0s that may contain all sorts of useful information. Some dacs do a nice job of allowing you to control the volume; the SB Touch does for example and since it is wireless you do not need to keep your computer near your music system. Otherwise a usb based dac works well. The HRT music streamer II is a pretty compelling buy at $150; the emotiva has more inputs and a remote and is also very reasonable at around $350 (it is currently on "sale" on the emotiva website). I use the HRT music streamer and it is very reliable and very good; I can say the same for the SB Touch. You will like the HRT streamer; it will work very well in your current system and you can put the rest of your budget to work at whatever elements of your system you think need upgrading.

 

[driscollw]

A dac will improve a computer based playback system. There are other tweaks you could do but you will notice the difference in SQ once you add a dac to your system. You do not want to control the volume from your computer since that removes 1s and 0s that may contain all sorts of useful information. Some dacs do a nice job of allowing you to control the volume; the SB Touch does for example and since it is wireless you do not need to keep your computer near your music system. Otherwise a usb based dac works well. The HRT music streamer II is a pretty compelling buy at $150; the emotiva has more inputs and a remote and is also very reasonable at around $350 (it is currently on "sale" on the emotiva website). I use the HRT music streamer and it is very reliable and very good; I can say the same for the SB Touch. You will like the HRT streamer; it will work very well in your current system and you can put the rest of your budget to work at whatever elements of your system you think need upgrading.

I do like that HRT music streamer. With that unit I am free to use any software package I like on my PC. I use MediaMonkey mostly but, I could choose anything I wanted. Looking at the SB Touch looks like it would replace both my PC and DAC if I wanted or I could use the optical out and feed into a preamp for DAC conversion ?

Correct me if I am wrong but, once I use any USB DAC I lose volume control at the PC anyway ? So I need to control it somehow.

So I could do

HRT Music Streamer > Emotiva USP-1 > AMP > Speakers

Thanks for your reply

 

[driscollw]

I'm reading other post trying to get some answers and ran into this post.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73866

Pyrrho states :

Now, for louder, it takes a doubling of power for every 3dB increase in sound, and if your receiver has indication in decibels for the volume control, you can hear for yourself how little that really is. So, to get just 3dB more volume than 140 watts, you need 280 watts, and to get just 3dB more than that, you need 560 watts, etc. (Notice, too, that there will be limits on what your speakers can handle, so it may be that only a very slight increase in volume over your receiver will be possible.)


Most people who buy separate amplifiers are throwing away their money on something that makes no difference. Don't be one of those fools.

Maybe I am wasting money. The main reason that I would like a separate amp is due to the fact it seems that really good speakers require 4 ohm loads. I was thinking about the PartExpress kit which is a 4 ohm speaker. I guess what I really need is simply a good Receiver that can take a 4 ohm load. I know my current Receiver is not rated at 4 ohm. It just seems like all receivers now days are 7.1, 7.2, 9.2, 115.7 (lol) etc ? Seems like overkill for someone who simply wants a 2.1 system. This was my whole "separates" approach.

 

[GranteedEV]

Maybe I am wasting money. The main reason that I would like a separate amp is due to the fact it seems that really good speakers require 4 ohm loads.

Many do, many don't. Final impedance tends to be mostly "uncontrollable". Some better speakers do have more wild loads because they know that anyone spending x amount will probably already have an overpriced amp.

Choose wisely and you can get away with the cheapest of receivers and still have elite level sound quality.

a separates amp never hurt anyone, but as a general rule of thumb, if you're paying half of what you paid on speakers on amplifiers, there might just be something wrong. You may have been able to just spend more on speakers and get a superior speaker with an easier load.

What parts express speaker kit were you looking at? There's quite a few excellent, but modest load, DIY speakers.

 

[bikemig]

I do like that HRT music streamer. With that unit I am free to use any software package I like on my PC. I use MediaMonkey mostly but, I could choose anything I wanted. Looking at the SB Touch looks like it would replace both my PC and DAC if I wanted or I could use the optical out and feed into a preamp for DAC conversion ?

Correct me if I am wrong but, once I use any USB DAC I lose volume control at the PC anyway ? So I need to control it somehow.

So I could do

HRT Music Streamer > Emotiva USP-1 > AMP > Speakers

Thanks for your reply

I am not certain if you lose volume control with all usb dacs but you do with the HRT musicstreamer; you want to control the volume in any case via your integrated amp or preamp as the case may be. Some usb dacs are combined with a preamp; others are not. The HRT musicstreamer works natively without the need for a driver which is a big plus and it works very well which is an even bigger plus. The SB Touch has a very good quality built in dac and I don't feel the need to use an external dac though some run it that way. It can't replace the PC, though, as the music files need to be resident either on a PC or a network hard drive.

 

[MDS]

You do not want to control the volume from your computer since that removes 1s and 0s that may contain all sorts of useful information.

A volume control doesn't modify any bits of a digital audio file. It increases or decreases the volume by varying the voltage output. The only issue with connecting your sound card/onboard audio chip to a receiver is when the DAC does not provide the full 1V output the receiver is expecting. But, it will still work - just have to turn the volume up on the receiver more.

The negative is you have dueling volume controls. If you turn down the volume on the computer, the output voltage will be even less and the more you have to turn up the receiver volume. It's the same thing as feeding your cable box (or any other source) to a TV with a variable volume control and using the TV's analog audio out to a receiver - you have to turn the TV volume up high or you will not get enough voltage to the receiver to achieve a reasonable volume without maxing out the receiver's volume control.

Correct me if I am wrong but, once I use any USB DAC I lose volume control at the PC anyway ? So I need to control it somehow.

The DAC itself does nothing but convert digital to analog. You have to get the now analog signal amplified before you can hear it. When you connect the output of the DAC to a receiver or powered speakers it gets amplified and you control the level using that device's volume control.

 

[driscollw]

A volume control doesn't modify any bits of a digital audio file. It increases or decreases the volume by varying the voltage output. The only issue with connecting your sound card/onboard audio chip to a receiver is when the DAC does not provide the full 1V output the receiver is expecting. But, it will still work - just have to turn the volume up on the receiver more.

The negative is you have dueling volume controls. If you turn down the volume on the computer, the output voltage will be even less and the more you have to turn up the receiver volume. It's the same thing as feeding your cable box (or any other source) to a TV with a variable volume control and using the TV's analog audio out to a receiver - you have to turn the TV volume up high or you will not get enough voltage to the receiver to achieve a reasonable volume without maxing out the receiver's volume control.



The DAC itself does nothing but convert digital to analog. You have to get the now analog signal amplified before you can hear it. When you connect the output of the DAC to a receiver or powered speakers it gets amplified and you control the level using that device's volume control.

Thank you for your reply.

I guess one question is am I getting $150-$300 of audio improvement by getting a USB>DAC to get audio off my computer. Right now I simply put all PC volumes to 100% and not using the PC's audio controls. I understand that it depends on the audio card that I have installed but, just going off the basic low end 3.5mm stereo output on an average computer compared to an $150 USB>DAC such as the HRT Music Streamer ? Plus, I do run quite a bit of FLAC but, I do have a lot of 320kb MP3's. Running a 320kb compressed MP3 to an external DAC make sense? Will offloading the DA conversion to a device like HRT Music Streamer be a "WOW" factor ? @bikemig can you tell a difference ?

I do understand the best quality is right off the CD itself which is fine for a good part of my music. Not convenient but, doable for my favorite music.

 

[driscollw]

Many do, many don't. Final impedance tends to be mostly "uncontrollable". Some better speakers do have more wild loads because they know that anyone spending x amount will probably already have an overpriced amp.

Choose wisely and you can get away with the cheapest of receivers and still have elite level sound quality.

a separates amp never hurt anyone, but as a general rule of thumb, if you're paying half of what you paid on speakers on amplifiers, there might just be something wrong. You may have been able to just spend more on speakers and get a superior speaker with an easier load.

What parts express speaker kit were you looking at? There's quite a few excellent, but modest load, DIY speakers.

Thank you for your reply. I was looking at
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-783

and

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-762

which I believe 4 Ohm is recommended. I am not dead set of this kit. I just thought I could get more bang for my buck by doing a kit like this. If there is a company that has something comparable then I am all for it. I didn't want to pair a 12 sub with two small monitors. I was thinking these two together would be a good match. I really do need to get a larger sub as my 10 isn't bad but, I'm not getting the punch I thought I would. On another note I really do like my "TSC" speakers which was recommended on this board a while ago. I believe they are out of business now though.

I optimally like to stay with a low/mid range receiver with some nice speakers I just always figured that better speakers means lower ohms. I don't mind my current receiver but, I just figure I have to spend more to get better. That's what people do when they really don't know what they are doing. "It cost a fortune so it must be good ! " lol.

 

[GranteedEV]

Yes, those PE Usher speakers look like a 4-ohm nominal load.

Are you intimadted by the woodworking aspect?

Because this MMTMM

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8652

I think would be amazing for what you're looking for, but the caveat is that it doesn't come with a pre-fab box.

 

[bikemig]

Thank you for your reply.

I guess one question is am I getting $150-$300 of audio improvement by getting a USB>DAC to get audio off my computer. Right now I simply put all PC volumes to 100% and not using the PC's audio controls. I understand that it depends on the audio card that I have installed but, just going off the basic low end 3.5mm stereo output on an average computer compared to an $150 USB>DAC such as the HRT Music Streamer ? Plus, I do run quite a bit of FLAC but, I do have a lot of 320kb MP3's. Running a 320kb compressed MP3 to an external DAC make sense? Will offloading the DA conversion to a device like HRT Music Streamer be a "WOW" factor ? @bikemig can you tell a difference ?

I do understand the best quality is right off the CD itself which is fine for a good part of my music. Not convenient but, doable for my favorite music.

Almost all my music is ripped at apple lossless but I have a number of high quality MP3 files as well (320 kbps or the variable bit rate files you get from Amazon); yes you will hear a difference with an external dac versus the internal dac in your computer. When I set up my first computer based system, I ran it for over a month without an external dac to give me a reference point before I added one. The external dac made a noticeable and positive difference to the SQ. I think you should be able to achieve as good a sound from a computer as you do your CD player and you never have to change CDs which is pretty cool.

 

[bikemig]

A volume control doesn't modify any bits of a digital audio file. It increases or decreases the volume by varying the voltage output. The only issue with connecting your sound card/onboard audio chip to a receiver is when the DAC does not provide the full 1V output the receiver is expecting. But, it will still work - just have to turn the volume up on the receiver more.

The negative is you have dueling volume controls. If you turn down the volume on the computer, the output voltage will be even less and the more you have to turn up the receiver volume. It's the same thing as feeding your cable box (or any other source) to a TV with a variable volume control and using the TV's analog audio out to a receiver - you have to turn the TV volume up high or you will not get enough voltage to the receiver to achieve a reasonable volume without maxing out the receiver's volume control.

My understanding is that it is not a good idea to use digital volume control of digital data. You might find this useful, http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_volume_controls.

 

[driscollw]

Yes, those PE Usher speakers look like a 4-ohm nominal load.

Are you intimadted by the woodworking aspect?

Because this MMTMM

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8652

I think would be amazing for what you're looking for, but the caveat is that it doesn't come with a pre-fab box.

That's a really nice set. I would need the speaker set, the ported assessory pack and I simply supply the wood ? I am not really intimated by the woodwork, I'm just not extremely skilled in that aspect. I do have the tools to do it. I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once if that helps ? I have a neighbor that could give me a hand if needed.

I read the write up on this project and it says that I still may need a sub? I am looking the frequency response on this design and it looks like it drops out at about 50hz-40hz ?
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/ZA5.5tt-FR.gif
Also have read that speaker sensitivity determines how much power is needed. How do I know how sensitive this setup is? I learned that on my HT setup. I have a set of Klipsch speakers that I have to turn my radio(Yamaha) up almost all the way to get any good sound out of them. I put them on my Pioneer and they are much better.

To all those reading, thank you for helping the newbies as I am sure you get tired of the same questions over and over. I do search the forums but, sometimes it just an overload of info which at the end of the day newbies are often more confused then when we first started. Thank you for your help.

 

[driscollw]

Almost all my music is ripped at apple lossless but I have a number of high quality MP3 files as well (320 kbps or the variable bit rate files you get from Amazon); yes you will hear a difference with an external dac versus the internal dac in your computer. When I set up my first computer based system, I ran it for over a month without an external dac to give me a reference point before I added one. The external dac made a noticeable and positive difference to the SQ. I think you should be able to achieve as good a sound from a computer as you do your CD player and you never have to change CDs which is pretty cool.

@bikemig

Thanks for the input, I am reading one of the reviews on the HRT Music Streamer II and that that it can't do 24-bit/192KHz (http://tinyurl.com/43259j4)

​

The HRT Streamer II supports the 24-bit/96 KHz high resolution input natively using the OS USB driver

This reviewer talks about the M2TECH hiFace Hi-End S/SPDIF Output Interface. (http://tinyurl.com/3l2gfh4) and its ability to do 24-bit/192KHz instead of the 24-bit/96KHz ?

Will this effect listening to WAV and FLAC's?

 

[GranteedEV]

I read the write up on this project and it says that I still may need a sub? I am looking the frequency response on this design and it looks like it drops out at about 50hz-40hz ?

Also have read that speaker sensitivity determines how much power is needed. How do I know how sensitive this setup is?

Yes, it is only four 5.25" woofers per speakers. Sounds like a lot, but it's not much. It will have plenty of output and especially it will sound amazing with low distortion. Remember two of those 5.25" woofers are also handling the midrange so you don't want to strain them too much. multiple subs is always the optimal approach (though there's certainly some true full range speakers you could build if you so desire )

The volume displacement of those four woofers is 176.8 cm^3

For reference, just a single 10 inch woofer like the CSS SDX-10 has displacement of 607.2 cm^3 - and I 'm an advocate of 18" woofers here if you want true full range bass. My maesltrom-X has a volume displacement of 3900 cm^3 - no need to even use a vent to get bass down to 20hz!

So why four woofers if you want a sub anyways? You limit the movement of each woofer in attempting to reproduce bass, keep the cabinet slim, and make a crossover to a sub pretty smooth. Put it atop stereo subs and you can put the zaphs inside sealed boxes instead of vented. Actively cross em around 180hz to a pair of Peerless SLSs 12 for a really sweet full range system.

TO answer your other question, Speaker sensitivity, along with phase angles and impedance, tells you how much amplification is needed at high volumes. The zaph speaker is a good 90+ db sensitive from what I recall so it should do well.

 

[driscollw]

. multiple subs is always the optimal approach (though there's certainly some true full range speakers you could build if you so desire )

In all seriousness I really do like kit due to the fact that the crossovers are prebuilt and the size. As much as I would like to have an 18" it might be a little to much for my room size. It would be perfect if there were 3 way kits that are 8ohm, come as a kit, and don't cost a small fortune on Madisound.

When you say "full range speakers" are you talking single speaker design like http://tinyurl.com/3sdr5ke ? I have seen these single speaker before but questioned how good they could sound. It just made more sense to me that TMW would be better. As with all newbies I could be completely wrong. If these sound good and might be a good project for a newbie then it might be something to look at.

I was looking at the TriTrix MTM a while ago from PartsExpress but, I really didn't know if it would have been a step up from what I was running now.

Any other plans/kits that you might feel would be a good fit for me I am extremely interested. I thought there was a website that had speaker plans based on the prefab boxes at PE ? Someone told me a while back that the prefab boxes from PE were pretty good quality for the money. Of course they are small are nothing like the ZA5.5 plans.

 

[GranteedEV]

It would be perfect if there were 3 way kits that are 8ohm, come as a kit, and don't cost a small fortune on Madisound.

Heh. Well, $1000 for the SB acoustics 12.3 ain't bad, it's about 500 a speaker but there's no center. The other 3-way well worth building is the Janzten Audio JA8008 Kit - also known as the Troels Graveson DTQWT. This is a true 8 ohm speaker with 95db sensitivity and by all accounts its sound is top tier. You would have to source it from europe though, which adds to an already pricy cost.

I do recall some buzz about Statements flat-packs.. but soldering would probably need to be done manually.

Any person willing to do his/her own cabinets and build a DIY kit or established design is in for some top notch performance

When you say "full range speakers" are you talking single speaker design like http://tinyurl.com/3sdr5ke ?

Well, I was refering to speakers which reproduce the full range from 20hz to 20khz at meaningful SPLs (IE 110db+ @ 1m) with low distortion.

I have seen these single speaker before but questioned how good they could sound. It just made more sense to me that TMW would be better. As with all newbies I could be completely wrong. If these sound good and might be a good project for a newbie then it might be something to look at.

Like with anything, they've got pros and they've got cones.

Pros include
no sudden phase shifts that crossovers introduce
no sudden directivity shifts that crossovers introduce
relatively simple
a true point source

cons include
top register beaming + often ragged response
if it can do highs, it can't likely do lower mids, and vice versa. So stereo subs are normally still vital.
output capability is going to of course be limited

What I would do maybe, is do a full tapered CBT line array with the 2" Aurasound NS2 fullrange driver. If I knew how

I was looking at the TriTrix MTM a while ago from PartsExpress but, I really didn't know if it would have been a step up from what I was running now.

Well, Curt Campbell definitely is a great crossover designer. Any limitations would be in things like detail and bass - whatever limitations the raw drivers might have. It's still a lot more than can be said of commercial speakers at the same price point, which usually have disasterous crossovers.

Any other plans/kits that you might feel would be a good fit for me I am extremely interested.

Definitely, however this is the amps/pre-pros section and it may be more appropriate for you to make a new thread in the DIY section as this is starting to get rather off-topic.

I thought there was a website that had speaker plans based on the prefab boxes at PE ? Someone told me a while back that the prefab boxes from PE were pretty good quality for the money. Of course they are small are nothing like the ZA5.5 plans.

There are various DIY speaker designers who are better at crossover design than box building and yes, you can probably find many plans for speakers using the PE boxes out there on the internet. MarkK's ER18DXT bookshelf for example takes it a step further and stuffs a Parts Express box accordingly to turn it into a mass loaded transmission line.

 

[driscollw]

Heh. Well, $1000 for the SB acoustics 12.3 ain't bad, it's about 500 a speaker

For some reason I was thinking it was $1000 ($1160 w/accessory pack) for each. Otherwise that really isn't a bad deal at all. It does state that it's an avg of 5-6ohm speaker though, which takes me back to the receiver. lol

I agree the post is getting off topic. I am going to hit the DIY section and read.

So far I think I am going to get a USB DAC and start looking for a better receiver that can do 6 ohm speakers. I was thinking maybe a Denon,Yamaha, or another Pioneer for maybe around $600 or so.

Thanks again !

 

[MDS]

My understanding is that it is not a good idea to use digital volume control of digital data. You might find this useful, http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_volume_controls.

If you've evered used the Normalize function of an audio editor, that is exactly how normalization is accomplished. However, the computations are done internally at a much higher bit depth to avoid overflow. If the result won't fit in the original bit depth, then it is dithered. I don't know of any digital volume or normalization routine that would be dumb enough to truncate or round the result, but you never know.

But in the context of a DAC, that process is not used. The digital signal is converted to analog and then sent out the analog outs and the volume control varies the voltage.