2.1 preamps

[ratso]

just bought an emotiva usp-1 on audiogon, and almost immediately realized i have bought the wrong preamp. so i will be putting it back on audiogon soon for a parasound 2100 (which i didn't really know it existed at the time - well, actually i knew it existed but didn't know what it could do). however none of these preamps (the emotiva, the 2100 or the p-7) do all that i want. all of these are/would be temporary replacements for my ultimate preamp, the lyngdorf dpa-1. so here is what i have and what i want. the emotiva does not do HT passthrough when powered down or have dual sub output, but does have variable high pass filtering. the 2100 has dual sub capability and HT passthrough, but no variable high pass (fixed at 80hz). the P-7 has variable filtering but no HT passthrough and no dual sub (which their own lower model 2100 has?). even the lyngdorf does not have HT passthrough. i realize there are workarounds for some of these things (y-splitters) but i wish someone would come out with a preamp that does it all. as more and more people try to integrate 2 channel and HT i think the market is there. (i am hoping for a JC P-7). any other choices out there that i am missing?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think you will be able to tell the difference between the Preamp section of the Denon 4311 vs any analog stereo preamp out there.

Have you done a SPL level-matched comparison between the analog preamp vs Denon 4311 in 2.0 music Direct mode?

 

[ratso]

hmmm an interesting take, acu. and you may very well be correct. but i have always been a through and through 2 channel guy and i'm not quite ready to dump it yet. don't think i actually EVER will be able to give it up really. (and in reality your suggestion IS a 2 channel solution but you know what i'm saying i think).

 

[Jeepers]

even the lyngdorf does not have HT passthrough.

Ratso - check the News tab on the Lyngdorf site; HT Passthrough is available since October 2009. I purchased the TDAI 2200 2 months ago and this feature is included.

 

[ratso]

Ratso - check the News tab on the Lyngdorf site; HT Passthrough is available since October 2009. I purchased the TDAI 2200 2 months ago and this feature is included.

i mean the auto bypass feature as in the parasound 2100 - the ability to use the HT bypass feature even when the preamp is powered off. few preamps have this. my supratek tube preamp did. the cary does, as does the lower model parasound (but not the upper models)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

hmmm an interesting take, acu. and you may very well be correct. but i have always been a through and through 2 channel guy and i'm not quite ready to dump it yet. don't think i actually EVER will be able to give it up really. (and in reality your suggestion IS a 2 channel solution but you know what i'm saying i think).

At one time I went totally crazy with four class A Acurus RL11 stereo preamps + 200X3 amps for both 2.0 pure analog music and 7.1 movies.

The BD player did all the TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding and sent the 7.1 to the four RL11 via analog cables, and the HDMI went straight from the BD player to the TV. The SACD/DVD-A player did the decoding as well.

There was no need for a HT bypass.

I guess you could do the same thing with the Paraound P7.

But then what would you do with the very awesome flagship (one of the flagship models) Denon AVR4311CI?

I still think you need to just give up that "analog life" as I did.

When I compared the analog preamp measurements vs the AVR measurements in Direct 2.0 mode, I noticed that the AVR measurments actually looked BETTER in many instances. So how could the analog preamp sound better if it does not measure better?

In Direct & especially in Pure Direct mode, all digital circuits are bypassed and you get the same analog circuits for 2.0 music.

Just give up your analog life. It is numbered.

 

[DenPureSound]

At one time I went totally crazy with four class A Acurus RL11 stereo preamps + 200X3 amps for both 2.0 pure analog music and 7.1 movies.

The BD player did all the TrueHD/DTS-HD decoding and sent the 7.1 to the four RL11 via analog cables, and the HDMI went straight from the BD player to the TV. The SACD/DVD-A player did the decoding as well.

There was no need for a HT bypass.

I guess you could do the same thing with the Paraound P7.

But then what would you do with the very awesome flagship (one of the flagship models) Denon AVR4311CI?

I still think you need to just give up that "analog life" as I did.

When I compared the analog preamp measurements vs the AVR measurements in Direct 2.0 mode, I noticed that the AVR measurments actually looked BETTER in many instances. So how could the analog preamp sound better if it does not measure better?

In Direct & especially in Pure Direct mode, all digital circuits are bypassed and you get the same analog circuits for 2.0 music.

Just give up your analog life. It is numbered.

The best I ever did with my Analog Life was a DC Battery, slowing watching the EMF decay on a Chart Recorder.

GEEZ, I hope my Denon AVR-4311CI of which I will use as a Pre/Pro solely letting the EMO XPA-5 do all the Heavy Lifting... think that will work?

In my mind, they will soon be Streaming dig. in at 24bits and 192kHz., but will it be as good as FLAC?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The best I ever did with my Analog Life was a DC Battery, slowing watching the EMF decay on a Chart Recorder.

GEEZ, I hope my Denon AVR-4311CI of which I will use as a Pre/Pro solely letting the EMO XPA-5 do all the Heavy Lifting... think that will work?

In my mind, they will soon be Streaming dig. in at 24bits and 192kHz., but will it be as good as FLAC?

I'm thinking the 4311 will sound totally awesome no matter what you feed it, be it analog or digital.

 

[ratso]

Just give up your analog life. It is numbered.

you'll have to pry my analog out of my COLD DEAD HANDS

 

[ratso]

actually my overall plan is the lyngdorf dpa-1 as a preamp and hopefully a nice set of used cary 211M monoblocks. for no other reason than nothing on earth has ever looked cooler than 845/211's. and then i can finally get rid of my nite lite too. but as far as for now, there is talk once again that emotiva's x series preamp is on it's way. maybe that will solve some problems if it ever gets here.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

actually my overall plan is the lyngdorf dpa-1 as a preamp and hopefully a nice set of used cary 211M monoblocks. for no other reason than nothing on earth has ever looked cooler than 845/211's. and then i can finally get rid of my nite lite too. but as far as for now, there is talk once again that emotiva's x series preamp is on it's way. maybe that will solve some problems if it ever gets here.

I thought you wanted a true class-A "ANALOG" preamp?

That DPA-1 is a "DIGITAL" preamp.

Is that Emotiva X-series preamp is digital preamp too, or is it a true class-A analog preamp?

I just don't see any difference at all between a digital preamp and a digital AVR or pre-pro.

 

[ratso]

I thought you wanted a true class-A "ANALOG" preamp?

That DPA-1 is a "DIGITAL" preamp.

Is that Emotiva X-series preamp is digital preamp too, or is it a true class-A analog preamp?

I just don't see any difference at all between a digital preamp and a digital AVR or pre-pro.

i just want my seperate 2 channel system dammit! i can fake the analog part. as for class A, screw that - my AC bill is high enough! (actually if you want to whip out yer soldering iron and put together a class a analog preamp with ht passthrough i'll be happy to demo it for you).

 

[DD66000]

You mentioned the P7 does not do bypass, it sure as hell does. But it has to be turned on. no big deal.
For analogue, I'd take the P7 over any AVR preout, and do. And it is superior to the 2100. The only thing missing in the P7 is dual sub outs. And that certainly is not a deal breaker for high end stereo sound. Remember, the 2100 is newer than the P7, the reason the 2100 has dual subout.

I use the P7 to handle the BM of stereo out for the Marantz TT and the CD output of the Denon multi-disc player. The Denon controls the BM for MCM. And all is run through a Class A Parasound MC amp.

I could make that system better by replacing the Denon for an Oppo BDP-95 for better analogue out.

 

[ratso]

actually, acu i sat down today and actually seriously thought about your solution. i am very much a no nonsense no snake oil kind of guy and i think you are probably right that there would be no audible difference if i just used the denon for everything. at one point in my life i had 2 monstrously complex systems running side by side (HT and 2 channel) with some shared components between each. and it started to drive me crazy (not to mention my wife calling me at work everyday. "how do you turn on the TV again?" not that it was her fault, it was a very complex system). i wanted to simplify. and your solution would sure simplify, i could get rid of 80% of the gear i currently have. the one thing stopping me is this - it may sound silly but it's a dealbreaker for me. denon got rid of (according to batpig's setup guide) the ability to listen to an RCA source (my music server) while inputing HDMI video from another source. i almost NEVER listen to music without having the tv on also - i usually like to watch a game or something with a music background (the play by play guys are all annoying anyways). as far as i know there is no way around this other than running component. which gives a visibly poorer picture on my uverse box. not to mention that, for some reason, uverse only allows one output to be used, so i can't even switch back and forth between component and HDMI without switching cables. i don't know why denon would have done this, i can't imagine that if they had the capability to do it before that it has changed now?

 

[ratso]

update** dragged out the component cables and an optical audio cable, haven't tried this in a while. maybe i had some settings wrong last time but HDNet looks pretty good right now (maybe it's this girl in the most microscopic bikini on earth). maybe just maybe.... hmm....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

actually, acu i sat down today and actually seriously thought about your solution. i am very much a no nonsense no snake oil kind of guy and i think you are probably right that there would be no audible difference if i just used the denon for everything.

Back when I was a pure hardcore "analog" guy (no AVR, no pre-pro, 24 analog cables), I was doing something that probably no one else on earth did, which was using 4 class-A analog stereo preamps for a 7.1 setup, I don't think anyone could convince me that digital was the same or better.

It's called denial.

A signal is sent from the player to the preamp. Whether the preamp is a digital stereo preamp or analog stereo preamp or pre-pro or AVR, that signal will travel through the preamp and reach the amplifier just the same.

So we can measure how "pure" that signal travelled from the source to the amp via THD, SNR, FR, & Crosstalk.

If the measurement shows that the AVR is more pure than the stereo preamp, I personally don't see how the "analog" guys could argue that the stereo preamp is "better".

But convincing is another matter. Sometimes impossible.

I convinced myself by doing my own comparison. Everyone has to do the same.

But in PURE DIRECT mode, you won't hear a difference between the Denon 4311 and another class A analog preamp if you level match both systems with a SPL meter.

 

[ratso]

u is one of those smart guys. i think i have seen the light.