Suggestions for First Audio Only Setup

[pinchharmonic]

Hi everyone,

Here's a list of what I'm looking for:

1.) Audio only. SRV, eric johnson, light rock, light shred like Satriani
2.) L/R preferably floorstanding as opposed to Bookshelf. that way it will have enough bass that I don't need a sub, since that will fit budge easier.
3.) Budget is $2500 total, but that won't include accessories like cables. I was thinking $2500 would encompass speakers, amp, (pre-amp? still not sure why this is necessary, and someone suggested a DAC?).
4.) I'd use my computer in the meantime to play music because I read some of the higher end CD players are quite costly.
5.) btw room is rather small, maybe 12x12 ft, hardwood.

thanks everyone,
Dave

 

[putt4doh2]

Check out Emotiva. You can put together a stereo preamp, cd player, and amps for $1500 or less. Don't let the price discourage you, good stuff that you'll have a VERY hard time beating at their price point.

 

[pinchharmonic]

Check out Emotiva. You can put together a stereo preamp, cd player, and amps for $1500 or less. Don't let the price discourage you, good stuff that you'll have a VERY hard time beating at their price point.

woah I just checked it out, pretty cool. What is the verdict on their stuff compared to other brands I've researched and heard like Totem, PSB, and Paradigm? Of course speakers only

i like that you can put everything together from the same company though.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

2.5k stereo/music only?
Easy - SongTower SWT + Refub Onkyo - http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR707/Onkyo/TX-SR707-Thx-Select2-Plus-100-watts-channel-7.2-Receiver/1.html#!specifications

Why 7.2 AVR for Stereo - Since you might want to have sub added later - it'll make mains/sub integration 100% easier

 

[putt4doh2]

I can't comment on Emotiva speakers, but there's a very good review on Audiogon of their USP-1 analog pre-amp (I'd post the link, but I don't have posts to share)

I happen to agree with his review. I love mine...very detailed, very precise...and an absolute bargain at it's price point.

FWIW--Their amps and CD player receive very similar reviews.

 

[zieglj01]

Check out Emotiva. You can put together a stereo preamp, cd player, and amps for $1500 or less. Don't let the price discourage you, good stuff that you'll have a VERY hard time beating at their price point.

And for speakers, I would look at the GT1 towers from PSB.
That would be a lot going on, in a 12x12 room - I hope you
will be sitting back far enough, for proper imaging and a good
sound stage.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...someone suggested a DAC...some of the higher end CD players are quite costly....

First, you don't need a DAC. It is a total waste of money. A good pre-pro or receiver already has a great DAC, and you won't notice any difference.

Second, you won't be able to tell the difference between a $3,000 CD player and an good $300 blu-ray or $500 universal player.

Since your room is relatively small, you probably want to keep it simple and just get a good quality receiver like Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, or Yamaha.

I don't ever recommend buying refurbished receivers or pre-pros, but other people may have better luck then I have.

I would spend around $2,000 on the 2 speakers and $500 on the receiver.

 

[sholling]

That room is so small I'm not sure that towers are going to be a great idea. Most towers in your price bracket are rear ported which by the time you place the tower 18-24" from the wall and add the depth of the tower you're looking at the front of those speakers being 3' or more into the room. This doesn't eliminate towers but it does need to be taken into account.

Let me toss out a couple of ideas starting with bookshelves. A pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 bookshelves with the NrT tweeter upgrade (~$1300). The NrT upgrade is off-menu so you'll have to ask for it but it's very worthwhile. I'd also consider the optional port plugs so that you can place them closer to the wall. Add an Emotiva Ultra 12 sub ($430 shipped), and a decent AVR like a factory refurbished Onkyo TX-SR707 (~$400). I'd spend the rest on an area rug and room treatments to tame reflections. I own all of the above including a refurbished 707.

You could also have Jim Salk custom build you a pair of Salk Surround II bookshelves with front ports (~$1700 w/front ports). I'd add an Emotiva Ultra 12 sub and the same Onkyo receiver but that won't leave you budget for treatments. The Salks are 4ohm but the TX-SR707 is 4ohm certified and should drive them fine.

If you must have towers then the Salk Song Tower is roughly $2000 and can be driven by a 100w 4ohm certified receiver. An amp is a plus but not a must. I own a pair and they're great speakers but they do benefit from a sub especially with very bass heavy music. I'd probably also consider Ascends soon to be released tower (~$2000) but I've only heard the prototype and they weren't quite a finished product as of December. I have not heard Aperion Grand's yet but they should also be on your list of towers.

As long as your music is in a lossless format then feeding the receiver from a computer is a great way to go. I rip my CD purchases to "flac" files and haven't played a CD in the house in years.

I don't ever recommend buying refurbished receivers or pre-pros, but other people may have better luck then I have.

You just kept buying the wrong brand. My two Onkyo refurbs have been great.

 

[zieglj01]

You just kept buying the wrong brand. My two Onkyo refurbs have been great.

And my Marantz is still going strong.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And my Marantz is still going strong.

You just kept buying the wrong brand. My two Onkyo refurbs have been great.

You mean I'm insane for repeating the same thing and expecting different resuults?

 

[3db]

Towers will work in a 12x12 room although I'm not crazy about the square dimensions when it comes to standing waves. The room is not too small.

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.

 

[sholling]

You mean I'm insane for repeating the same thing and expecting different resuults?

I did not say that, I only hinted at it.

 

[pinchharmonic]

thanks everyone, this is really fantastic advice, i'm going to re-measure the room because i was not aware towers had the issue of being too close to a wall.

The Sierra-1 speakers look absolutely fantastic, i'm assuming this brand sells direct to customer? similar to emotiva for a better price?

Thanks for the GT1 suggestion too, I found those for really cheap on audiogon so I'll also consider that, they look like a really short tower, perhaps the compromise i need.

As for the receiver, my friend that suggested the DAC has a setup like:

computer -> DAC -> pre-amp (tube) -> 2x amps (built himself from some online specs) -> two totem bookshelfs

Now the suggestions here have been with the common receivers, i'm assuming all solid state. Would anyone recommend I go with tube amplifers? is it a huge difference like my friend absolutely insists ? ... I was looking seriously into something called the PeachTree Nova which is about $820 on amazon, it's called an integrated amp with a tube, and I can connect my computer or a CD player directly to it, its output is 40 watts per channel.


thanks again everyone.

 

[sholling]

thanks everyone, this is really fantastic advice, i'm going to re-measure the room because i was not aware towers had the issue of being too close to a wall.

Only if rear ported.

The Sierra-1 speakers look absolutely fantastic, i'm assuming this brand sells direct to customer? similar to emotiva for a better price?

Yes they sell direct and you can get the owner/designer on the phone to give you some ideas.

As for the receiver, my friend that suggested the DAC has a setup like:

computer -> DAC -> pre-amp (tube) -> 2x amps (built himself from some online specs) -> two totem bookshelfs

Now the suggestions here have been with the common receivers, i'm assuming all solid state. Would anyone recommend I go with tube amplifers? is it a huge difference like my friend absolutely insists ? ... I was looking seriously into something called the PeachTree Nova which is about $820 on amazon, it's called an integrated amp with a tube, and I can connect my computer or a CD player directly to it, its output is 40 watts per channel.

A tube amp seems to be a religious devotion for some but I'd rather have solid state and plenty of power.

 

[pinchharmonic]

Only if rear ported.


Yes they sell direct and you can get the owner/designer on the phone to give you some ideas.


A tube amp seems to be a religious devotion for some but I'd rather have solid state and plenty of power.

Hi the room is in fact 12x13, I'll make sure to keep in mind if the speaker is rear-ported or not.

as far tube amplifiers, I also play guitar and I own a fender hot rod deluxe, which is a tube amplifer. At least in the guitar amplication world, tube vs. solid state is really no debate since the sound is drastically different. i guess the answer may be to go listen to tube/solid state amps for music, but apparently it's not conclusive if it matters that much?

 

[GranteedEV]

Hi the room is in fact 12x13, I'll make sure to keep in mind if the speaker is rear-ported or not.

as far tube amplifiers, I also play guitar and I own a fender hot rod deluxe, which is a tube amplifer. At least in the guitar amplication world, tube vs. solid state is really no debate since the sound is drastically different

You have to realize, when you're using a tube amp to MAKE music, it's because you want it to sound a certain way to the person hearing it. When you use a tube to reproduce music, you've likely altered the recording.

Think of a tube as +1

So a performance is A
A recording with a tube amp is A+1
The recording with SS amp is A

If you want to hear the recording, you want to hear A+1 or A depending on what the performer has in mind.

But playing back the recording with the tube amp is
A+1+1 = A+2
or
A+1 = A+1

neither of hwich is going to be the same as what was original recorded...so you've gone away from the original recording by adding to the signal. Do you want this? I personally want to get closer to the original recording.

3.) Budget is $2500 total, but that won't include accessories like cables. I was thinking $2500 would encompass speakers, amp, (pre-amp? still not sure why this is necessary, and someone suggested a DAC?).

A pre-amp is necessary with analog gear like turntables because they do not produce the voltage needed to drive amps. If you don't want to bother with vinyl then you don't need a phono pre-amp, although you would of course want some sort of volume control.

An amp is of course necessary to drive speakers. As a general rule you want amps that can deal with complex loads well, but if you select your speakers carefully, you might be find with a less expensive amp. Whether you need an amp depends on whether your speakers will need a superior amp.

DACs are necessary to turn digital music into analog music. half decent CD players have quality DACs built right in

Personally, I think surround electronics are the way to go, even for stereo. That means a surround receiver, or perhaps a surround processor and dedicated amps. As a general rule though, just avoid spending too much on electronics. Spend more where the performance is at - speakers. If you get great speakers that don't force you into higher end amps, then even a 200 dollar receiver might cut it.

4.) I'd use my computer in the meantime to play music because I read some of the higher end CD players are quite costly.

And overpriced, considering they do the same damn thing for the most part.

So what speakers do I recommend?

A pair of these:

http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_rhythm-prism.html

and add on any decent integrated amp or receiver. Those speakers are super easy to drive even with modest electronics, and should sound pretty good based on their design. Of course like anything, you would want an audition and I would contact the company for audition information.

IN such a small room, the directive nature of those speakers will keep you from needing "over-treatments"

 

[3db]

I want to listen to a good tube set-up as well. They may not be as true as a SS amp but many people enjoy the "tube" sound. I'm very curious.

 

[digicidal]

It's the holy glow from on high... I have no idea why you would call it 'religious'... it's simply fact.

OK, now for the serious... I'm a firm believer in having a tube amp (wait for it) but only as a secondary system. I guess it would be fine for a primary system if you never listen to any other gear, and have a huge affinity for vocal music and an allergy to deep bass (or couple it with a pair of nice SS amped subs). I love my little tube amp, loved pretty much all of my SETs and SEPs before the one I have now... and I'm sure I'll love the 5-6 others I'll probably own in the future. That being said, my dedicated 2ch setup is SS primarily and tubed only when I feel the need. My HT setup is now and only ever will be SS throughout - even when I upgrade to separates for each channel.

I agree completely with GranteedEV's assessment - just not completely with his conclusion. There are many cases where I just enjoy listening to an A+2 sound... or more accurately in my case an A+3 since my speakers are often (depending on which set I connect) fullrange single-drivers which have a very distinct signature of their own.

It's many an audiophile's dream and that of most audioholics as well - to perfectly re-create the sound exactly as it was recorded or performed live. I don't dispute this as a valid pursuit at all - I simply personally couldn't give a tiny rat-crap about that. To me that is the goal of the engineer or the artists themselves... MY goal is simply to enjoy what I am listening to without any concern as to the 'accuracy' of it.

The bottom line is you have to answer which is better for you:

1) As exact a recreation as is possible given budget and room interactions of the original sound as recorded in the studio and/or performed in the venue.

2) A sound that is personally very pleasing for you to listen to and enjoy even if it happens to be significantly different that the original event as recorded to the medium used.

In my case I couldn't answer universally... I lean towards #2 more often simply because I believe the only people for which #1 is absolutely always the right answer - are the recording engineers themselves. For me I don't care if I'm listening to something "wrong" as long as I personally think it sounds "right". I'm not listening to it for someone else's benefit after all.

I do however, agree with GEV and often require the use of my SS rig(s) to verify and analyze what my tubed/unique gear is adding or subtracting from the recorded sound.

So that was a novel, and here is the cliffs notes: Just go SS unless you have the desire and finances to support multiple configurations. It may not be exactly what your ears 'like' soundwise - but it is definitely not going to be significantly 'wrong' either. With gear that adds a significant signature - it's hit-or-miss and more often than not it's the latter.

 

[GranteedEV]

You mean I'm insane for repeating the same thing and expecting different resuults?

ecost + denon...

You've convinced me never to even bother

but marantz + accessories4less?

I'll never quit

I agree completely with GranteedEV's assessment - just not completely with his conclusion. There are many cases where I just enjoy listening to an A+2 sound... or more accurately in my case an A+3 since my speakers are often (depending on which set I connect) fullrange single-drivers which have a very distinct signature of their own.

The main thing was to clarify what tubes "mean" in audio reproduction vs audio production. As long as the OP is aware of the distinction, that's enough. Whether he enjoys tubes after that or not is his prerogative.

 

[pinchharmonic]

great responses, that elucidated tons.

i guess the point is moot since I just realized the amp I may go for, the peachtree decco or nova, can switch between solid state/tube with the controller provided.

Now the only problem is that this amp is about $1000, and the other suggestions for amps I could easily get for less than $500!