Japan's 8.9 earthquake

[haraldo]

This is powerful stuff.... shocking ........
http://www.vgtv.no/#id=38396

 

[majorloser]

This is powerful stuff.... shocking ........
http://www.vgtv.no/#id=38396

That is just the ultimate nightmare come true. I can't even imagine going through something that destructive.

I really feel for the people of Japan.

 

[Stereodude]

The emergency cooling systems in our reactors run on natural circulation, so when the power goes out, you still have something. I only know my platform, and I'm sure there's a reason they didn't do it, the pocket protectors know a hell of a lot more about that stuff than I do haha.

I'm guessing the plant you work at doesn't use a 40+ year old reactor design either. I guess at the time they figured they had it covered.

 

[Stereodude]

Even then..... why is there no power for cooling, when there's a nuclear reactor there?

Their generating ability must have been knocked offline by the quake, and they probably got in a catch-22 situation where they can't make power without having power and their connection to the power grid is probably toast also.

Why is there not double or triple emergency cooling?

Reportedly there were several layers of redundancy on the generators, but they all failed due to the tsunami. In retrospect it doesn't exactly seem like the best strategy.

 

[CaliHwyPatrol]

I'm guessing the plant you work at doesn't use a 40+ year old reactor design either. I guess at the time they figured they had it covered.

Actually it does. The plant I initially trained on first went critical in 1971 and it has an emergency cooling system that runs on thermal driving head. When power is lost, the control rods automatically drop into the core and the XC system initiates.

I don't know anything about boiling water reactors though, so maybe they can't use natural circulation? I never looked into it.

 

[Matt34]

Actually it does. The plant I initially trained on first went critical in 1971 and it has an emergency cooling system that runs on thermal driving head. When power is lost, the control rods automatically drop into the core and the XC system initiates.

I don't know anything about boiling water reactors though, so maybe they can't use natural circulation? I never looked into it.

I really have no idea what if this relates to what you're referring to but I did see them mention that they circulated ocean water through the reactor when the primary cooling system went down.

 

[haraldo]

In one of the video footages you can see a guy on the roof of a destroyed building while the tsunami roars around him threatening to flush away the whole house, I don't know what happened to this guy... if he survived, hope he did, but just watching things like this is beyound scary... There are probably thousands of situations like this and we can just barely imagine the horror involved for people like him

 

[GO-NAD!]

The news coming out of Japan is staggering. It must be terrible to be anywhere closer to the scene. I once sat through an earthquake with a magnitude in the low 6 range. It was bad enough - I can't imagine something about 1000 times stronger.

Japan should be proud that its efforts to build earthquake resistant tall buildings, such as those in Tokyo, seems to have paid off. There seems to be little serious damage or loss of life in those large cities. They were certainly near enough to this very large quake. It could have been much worse. Their building codes should be a model to the rest of the world.

I wish the best to the people of Japan who have to recover from this. I think it may be time to send some money to the Red Cross or other charitable groups who will pitch in.

Done! I encourage my fellow AHers to do the same.

 

[its phillip]

http://www.interaction.org/crisis-list/interaction-members-support-japan-earthquake-response

U.S. organizations accepting donations to assist Japan included:

Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA)
Donations: 800-424-ADRA (2372)
Donations address: ADRA International, 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring MD 20904
Website: http://www.adra.org

All Hands Volunteers
Donations: 919-830-3573
Donations address: PO Box 546, Carlisle MA 01741
Website: http://www.hands.org/donate/japan-tsunami

American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee
Donations: 212-687-6200
Donations address: 132 E. 43rd St PO Box 530, New York NY 10017
Website: http://jdc.org

American Red Cross
Donations: 1-800-RED-CROSS
Donations address: PO Box 37243, Washington DC 20013
Website: http://www.redcross.org

AmeriCares
Donations: 203-658-9500
Donations address: 88 Hamilton Ave, Stamford CT 06902
Website: http://americares.org

Ananda Marga Universal Relief Team (AMURT)
Donations: 301-738-7122
Donations address: AMURT, 2502 Lindley Ter, Rockville MD 20850
Website: http://amurt.us

Baptist World Alliance/Baptist World Aid
Donations: 703-790-8980
Donations address: 405 N. Washington St, Falls Church VA 22046
Website: http://www.bwanet.org

Brother's Brother Foundation
Donations: 412-321-3160
Donations address: 1200 Galveston Ave, Pittsburgh PA 15233
Website: http://brothersbrother.org

Buddhist Tzu Chi Foundation
Donations: 1-888-989-8244
Donations address: Tzu Chi USA HQ, 1100 S Valley Center Ave, San Dimas CA 91773
Website: http://www.us.tzuchi.org/usa/home.nsf/other/donateCharity

Catholic Relief Services
Donations: 1-877-HELP-CRS
Donations address: PO Box 17090, Baltimore MD 21203-7090
Website: http://crs.org

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee
Donations: 800-55-CRWRC
Donations address: CRWRC, 2850 Kalamazoo Ave SE, Grand Rapids MI 49560-0600
Website: http://www.crwrc.org

Church World Service
Donations: 1-800-297-1516
Donations address: PO Box 968, Elkhart IN 46515
Website: http://www.churchworldservice.org

Direct Relief International
Donations: 805-964-4767
Donations address: 27 S. La Patera Ln, Santa Barbara CA 93117
Website: http://www.DirectRelief.org

Giving Children Hope
Donations: 714-523-4454
Donations address: 8332 Commonwealth Ave, Buena Park CA 90621
Website: http://gchope.org

Habitat for Humanity International
Donations: 1-800-Habitat
Donations address: 270 Peachtree St NW Suite 1300, Atlanta GA 30303-1263
Website: http://habitat.org

International Medical Corps
Donations: 800-481-4462
Donations address: 1919 Santa Monica Blvd Suite 400, Santa Monica CA 90404
Website: http://internationalmedicalcorps.org

International Rescue Committee
Donations: 1-877-REFUGEE (733-8433)
Donations address: 122 E. 42nd St, New York NY 10168
Website: http://www.rescue.org

Mercy Corps
Donations: 800-852-2100
Donations address: Dept. NR, PO Box 2669, Portland OR 97208
Website: https://www.mercycorps.org/donate/japan

Operation Blessing
Donations: 800-730-2537
Donations address: 977 Centerville Tpke, Virginia Beach VA 23463
Website: http://www.operationblessing.org

Relief International
Donations: 310-478-1200
Donations address: 5455 Wilshire Blvd Suite 1280, Los Angeles CA 90036
Website: http://www.ri.org

Save the Children
Donations: 1-800-728-3843
Donations address: 54 Wilton Rd, Westport CT 06880
Website: http://savethechildren.org

World Vision, U.S.
Donations: 1-800-777-5777
Donations address: Federal Way, WA 98063
Website: http://www.worldvision.org

 

[Shock]

I really have no idea what if this relates to what you're referring to but I did see them mention that they circulated ocean water through the reactor when the primary cooling system went down.

The ocean water was used to turn the steam back into liquid water after it had run through the turbines. The water that they use to cool with is deionized.

 

[majorloser]

The ocean water was used to turn the steam back into liquid water after it had run through the turbines. The water that they use to cool with is deionized.

According to CNN they pump seawater into the vessel after the other three safety cooling features failed.

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/03/14/dnt.japan.reactor.explainer.nhk

 

[majorloser]

They've now experienced a third explosion at the nuclear plant.

 

[Midwesthonky]

Actually it does. The plant I initially trained on first went critical in 1971 and it has an emergency cooling system that runs on thermal driving head. When power is lost, the control rods automatically drop into the core and the XC system initiates.

I don't know anything about boiling water reactors though, so maybe they can't use natural circulation? I never looked into it.

I didn't have much time to dig into details. The plant I was trained was built in the 60's and wasn't a boiling water reactor. In an emergency, we could do some limited cooling via thermal driving head, but only if the reactor was scrammed and teh heat buildup would be significantly less.

I don't know how long it takes to bring their reactor back online after being scrammed. But I think I remember reading they have systems to scram the reactor when an earthquake hits. Unfortunately, the tsunami took out the backup generators so they lost their cooling pumps. I also wonder if they lost all the power they needed to bring their systems back online.

I forget who asked about this but if you have no generators to power the cooling pumps and your operators are trying to escape the earthquake and then the tsunami, there probably wasn't anyone around to try to bring the generators back online. I don't know their design but if those generator turbines were sitting idle for too long, they might have started to warp. Probably didn't have enough time to try to bring them back up once they realized the generators were dead. If I remember right, the process to bring ours back online wasn't fast at all. And if there was no auxillary power to run the systems then they are seriously in deep poo. Also with no cooling pumps, there is no coolant to condense the steam back into water to go back into the reactor and keep the fuel rods wet. Unfortunately, we can see that now with the problems they are having.

Unfortunately, they got hit with a perfect storm. Historically powerful earthquake and then a record tsunami takes out all the multiple backup systems. More than one reactor management team is reviewing their systems and plans right now for a perfect storm.

A lot of people were lost in Katrine and the damage was unimaginable. But this takes it to a whole other magnitude. With Katrina there was warning. For Japan, no warning at all or very little warning of the tsunami. I can't begin to fathom the emergency effort ongoing. Let alone the long term clean up effort. How do you remove a ship that is now sitting inland?

 

[majorloser]

Unfortunately we may never hear about it, but I'd be willing to bet that some of the plant operators are making the ultimate sacrifice to keep from losing this plant.

I just can't fathom the stress they are under. Not only are they dealing with the disaster at the plant, but it is very likely that they lost their home, all of their belongings and may have even lost loved ones.

 

[CaliHwyPatrol]

Unfortunately we may never hear about it, but I'd be willing to bet that some of the plant operators are making the ultimate sacrifice to keep from losing this plant.

I just can't fathom the stress they are under. Not only are they dealing with the disaster at the plant, but it is very likely that they lost their home, all of their belongings and may have even lost loved ones.

I'm not trying to downplay the situation, but I don't think the radiation release is nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be.

They said the levels have exceeded legal limits at some points, but the legal limits are really, really low. Yes, they may have been exposed more than normal, but unless there is a major meltdown, none of them are going to die from it.

 

[majorloser]

I agree, there may not be a major release to the public. But I'd be willing to bet those on the plant site will not be so lucky.

 

[darien87]

Unfortunately we may never hear about it, but I'd be willing to bet that some of the plant operators are making the ultimate sacrifice to keep from losing this plant.

I just can't fathom the stress they are under. Not only are they dealing with the disaster at the plant, but it is very likely that they lost their home, all of their belongings and may have even lost loved ones.

You could very well be right. It's part of the Japanese mindset that it is honorable to sacrifice oneself for the greater good. The word Samurai means "to serve". Not to sound crass, but I wonder if a movie will be made of this. Some compelling stories for sure that I would like to see told.

 

[Midwesthonky]

I'm not trying to downplay the situation, but I don't think the radiation release is nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be.

They said the levels have exceeded legal limits at some points, but the legal limits are really, really low. Yes, they may have been exposed more than normal, but unless there is a major meltdown, none of them are going to die from it.

I second your statement. I don't think people realize how much radiation exposure they get from just hanging out on the beach or flying in an airplane. Yes people, you get significantly more radiation exposure from flying in an airplane than you do on the ground. It would be nice to have some numbers and comparisons so people could relate better. Such as a day 5 miles from the plant in Japan is equivalent to the exposure from flying from New York to LA.

Unfortunately, we know the levels inside are much higher than outside since most of the radiation is being contained. But the guys doing the grunt work - putting out fires, making emergency connections to try to cool the cores, etc are the ones making the sacrifices. They may end up with some sickness but can still lead fairly normal lives.

I never studied up on boiling water reactors (I learned on a pressurized water reactor) but did some last night. From a risk-management perspective, I am not a fan of the design. You lose your cooling and you still keep boiling water with the residual heat until your rods get exposed to steam. I am not a fan of that design at all. But that is only my opinion which isn't worth much.

CHP - were you trained on a commercial reactor or Navy?

 

[haraldo]

No matter what....

I think the bravest people in the world now is these guys working in the nuclear reactors trying to keep situation under control.... Probably they know that they may die from the efforts they're doing but they do this to save other people and save a situation...

No matter what media says and makes out of this....

They are putting their lives at stake here...... This is incredibly brave people that deserve a lot of honor; I believe the world would be better if everyone was like these people ..... they may even deserver a permanent reminder here at AH to show us what courage is !!!!

Situation may seem to be somewhat under control, but if it gets out of hand...... you have radiation that will kill these people in an instant and they don't know if they will be ok or not or get life-threatening issues..... I would for sure not feel safe doing their work......

What does it matter what kind of speakers I have, if I have a Krell amp or a 2000 watt class A power amp... if I use a squeezebox or a 5 gauge or 20 gauge cable...... this is a million times more important

 

[rnatalli]

I'm not an engineer, but I thought the control rods to scram a nuclear reactor were held in place by a constant flow of electricity so if the power failed, the control rods would fall on their own.