Speaker System ~2300$

M

MMcK

Enthusiast
I'm looking into getting a speaker system for my living room and I have around 2300$ to spend (Looking for a 5.1 system).

The room is rather large and open, it opens up into the kitchen right behind it. I already own a Pioneer Elite VSX-31 reciever so that doesn't need to be included in the price.

I've been looking at the following

- Energy Speakers
Energy CB-20 Bookshelf (350$)
Energy CC-10 Center (300$)
Energy ESW-C10 Subwoofer (400$)

Total W/O Surround - 1050$

I got sort of lost what I was going to use for surrounds at this point.

- Axiom Speakers
Axiom M22 Bookshelf (488$)
Axiom VP150 Center (420$)
Axiom EP350 Powered Subwoofer (768$)
Axiom QS8 Surrounds (558$)

Total - 2,122.30$ (5% Discounted)

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Bookshelf seem preferred by my wife but I'm sure I could convince her for towers if they are that much better.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The biggest issue you're going to face is your subwoofer. You say that you have a large, open room, so filling that space with enough sound pressure is going to be the biggest challenge. You're also going to want efficient speakers, but that is less of a challenge.

Ideally, you'd be going for something like the Rythmik FV15HP or SVSound PB12-Plus. These are the sorts of subwoofers that can output extremely loud bass that also truly plumbs the 20Hz depths of any soundtrack, but still maintain very good control with tight transients and realtively low distortion. Of course, these sorts of subs also cost in the $1200-$1400 range. And to make matters even worse, both Rythmik and SVSound are currently back-ordered on these models as they await large incoming containers from China.

Given your budget, you might not want to spend more than half on the subwoofer alone. The Rythmik FV15 can't quite match the output of its twice-as-powerful FV15HP brother, but at least it's in stock and goes for $1000. If you're ok with a tall-ish cylinder rather than a big box as the shape of your subwoofer, then there's SVSound's PC12-NSD DSP, which at only $700 is easily your most budget-friendly choice and the biggest bang-for-buck choice out there! I would strongly favor the SVSound PC12-NSD DSP in your case, but its cylinder shape and black carpet exterior aren't everyone's cup of tea, so I would understand some possible complaints from the decor committee ;)

If you're more comfortable with the big box shape for a sub and you want to stick closer to the $700 price range, then the HSU Research VTF-3 MK3 would be another good option. HSU's VTF subs are tuned a little higher. If you go for lots of output (which you'll likely need in your large, open room), then you can expect the really deep bass to roll-off below 30Hz or so. You can opt to plug one port and lower the overall output in favor of flatter response to a lower frequency. But going super low AND super loud isn't really HSU's forte.

So anywho, that's the sub. Regardless of which subwoofer you choose, please be sure to decouple your subwoofer from the floor. All of these subs that I've suggested produce physical vibrations. If they are in direct contact with the floor (even a concrete floor...concrete is NOT inert...it moves!), the vibrations of the subwoofer are transmitted into the floor. This becomes structure-borne sound transmission and it is the reason why you can so easily hear bass thumping away in other rooms, even when you cannot hear the higher frequencies. When you decouple your subwoofer from the floor, you greatly reduce this structure-borne sound transmission. The biggest benefit is that you greatly reduce the unwanted bass that is heard in other rooms. Obviously, this means happier significant others and happier neighbors! There is also an audible benefit inside your theater. By greatly reducing the physical shaking of your room, you cut down on rattles, audible vibrations and an additional source of distortion and soundwave interference.

The devices I recommend for decoupling are the Auralex GRAMMA and Auralex Great GRAMMA. The GRAMMA is a 15" x 23" platform that sells for $50. The Great GRAMMA is a larger 19" x 30" platform that sells for $80. And if you get a really big sub, you can always just use two of the regular GRAMMA risers to create a 23" x 30" platform for $100. There is also the Auralex SubDude, which is a square 15" x 15" platform that sells for $50 also (the SubDude works perfectly under the SVSound cylinder PC12-NSD DSP subwoofer).

So with a subwoofer, shipping and a GRAMMA or Great GRAMMA, you're looking at about $850 - $900 as your least expensive recommendation from me, and as high as $1550 if you were to wait for a back-order on the SVSound PB12-Plus with flat rate shipping and an Auralex Great GRAMMA.

So I'm going to just use some rough math and figure that you'll have somewhere around $1000 for your 5 speakers. You're using a good, but not hugely powerful receiver and you've got a large room, so the focus should be on efficiency and high output with low distortion.

I certainly don't mind the Axiom speakers as an option. The QS8 surrounds, in particular, are a real treat IMO. The new v3 tweeter is also a star - I've been extremely impressed with it. It has higher output, wider dispersion and better imaging than the previous v2 and Ti tweeters and it gets closer in performance to some of the really expensive Beryllium tweeters that are personal favorites of mine.

My only quibble is that I'm really not a fan of Axiom's center speakers, except for the VP180, which is HUGE and expensive and huge (and did I mention huge?). The VP180 is awesome, but it won't fit within your budget, nor would it make any sense to have a center speaker of that size and price in amongst a much smaller and less expensive system overall. Don't get me wrong, I think the VP180 is completely worth the money if it fits within your budget and listening setup. But I just think it wouldn't really fit in in this particular case.

I just can't give my recommendation to the VP100 or VP150. They present a different timbre and tone vs any of the Axiom bookshelf speakers and that leads to one of my worst pet peeves in audio where the sound audibly changes as a sound pans across the front from left-to-center-to-right or vice versa.

There are a couple of solutions:

- if you can make a vertical bookshelf speaker fit within the looks and space that you have for it, then something like three identical M3v3 Axiom speakers across the front would be superb! I actually prefer the M3v3 over the M22v3 when it is used as a front speaker in a surround sound setup. A pair of M22v3 mated with a subwoofer for music alone in a 2.1 setup is something that I would consider. But for a 5.1 system, I would personally opt for 3 M3v3 across the front any day! The M3v3 is not so tall that it would look extremely strange when used vertically as a center speaker. This really would be the best way to go in terms of audio quality. And it would fit nicely within your budget!

So I would recommend:

3 Axiom Audio M3v3 bookshelf speakers (for Front L/C/R)
1 Pair Axiom QS8 Surrounds

That's $1026 shipped (you still get the 5% discount because it's 5 items)

If you need the smallest footprint and don't mind a fairly tall, black carpet exterior cylinder, go for the SVSound PC12-NSD DSP with an Auralex SubDude...shipped, that's going to be about $850

If you can't stand a cylinder and don't mind a BIG black box instead, I think the winner right now will be the Rythmik FV15, which will fit nicely on an Auralex Great GRAMMA...shipped, you're looking at about $1220.

Hope that helps!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
My advice is to start by taking some measurements of the room and all attached spaces open to that room. Once you've done that contact Hsu Research, SvSounds, Rythmik, and Elemental Designs for subwoofer suggestions. Only after you do that will you know how much you have for speakers. I suspect that you'll have about half of your budget left. Some option to consider would be the Axiom set that was suggested but it sound like your room might be a bit large for small bookshelves.

I'd give thought to building a system around Infinity Primus P362 or P363 towers, a PC351 center, and a pair of P152/P153 or P162 bookshelves for surrounds. Depending on your google-fu you should be able to put together something for $800-1000. Another option would be an Ascend Acoustics system built around their CMT-340 bookshelves and center and one of their bookshelf/surround options. The Ascends will set you back about $1200 for a 5.0 set.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'd give thought to building a system around Infinity Primus P362 or P363 towers, a PC351 center, and a pair of P152/P153 or P162 bookshelves for surrounds.
That sounds pretty good.

I can definitely recommend that.
 
M

Melee

Audioholic
I'm in a similar situation and have been doing tons of research over the past few months and I 100% agree with what these guys have recommended thus far. NHT and Infinity are excellent choices to give you great sound without eating your entire budget.

I have a small-medium room and I am going with 4x Infinity P363 Towers for Fronts and Surrounds + PC351 Center. (If your tv is wall-mounted, you can use 5x P363's.) With your larger room, if the walls are far away from your listening area to discourage wall mounting, then Towers would be a great choice for surrounds, imo. With Bookshelves, you're going to have to buy stands which would make them more expensive than the Towers and easier to knock over if you have kids or pets. You can get that entire 5.0 System for $900 Shipped.

That leaves you $1,100 for Sub(s). I don't know much about them yet but these guys have already mentioned the companies I will be buying from when I decide to do so. With a large room, you're definitely going to need a powerful sub or two. I am going to go (I believe) with 2x Epik Legends for $899 for mine as I want Sealed Subs and they are rated down to 20hz. They also have the Epik Empire which utilizes Dual 15" Drivers instead of the 12"s in the Legend. SVS, eD, HSU, Rythmik, and Epik are all excellent choices. From what I've read, many people prefer having 2x Mid-Priced Subs when compared to a Single High-Priced Sub. I, once again from my limited experience and reading, would assume that two $500-$600 Subs would be great for covering your entire room moreso than a single $1000-$1200 Sub. eD and Epik both have great choices in that price range. I believe the other 3 companies require a bit more of a budget to get into their higher-end subs.

Hopefully this helps. Good Luck! :)
 
M

MMcK

Enthusiast
Wow, all of you have been extremely helpful. Is there any place in Florida around Orlando that I could sample some of these speakers (Obviously not Axiom)? Since the rear surrounds are going to be ceiling mounted (Already have the ports and wiring don't wanna deal with expensive stands) would the QS8 be the best option in comparison to bookshelf?

Based on what I've read this is what I'm looking at

Axiom QS8 Surround (558)
SVSound PC12-NSD DSP (700)
Auralex Subdude (50)
NHT Absolute Zero ThreeC Center (450)
Infinity Primus P363 (660)
Comes out to be 2418$.

Critiques?


Does it matter that every single area is a different company?
Center - NHT
Tower - Infinity
Surround - Axiom
Sub - SVSound

Is it worth trading out the receiver for a more powerful one? (It is still in the box)
For a
Yamaha RX-A700 (90W)
Pioneer VSX-1020-K (110W)
Is it worth going with two lower quality subs instead of the one SVS sub?
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Axiom QS8 Surround (558)
SVSound PC12-NSD DSP (700)
Auralex Subdude (50)
NHT Absolute Zero ThreeC Center (450)
Infinity Primus P363 (660)
Comes out to be 2418$.

Critiques?


Does it matter that every single area is a different company?
Center - NHT
Tower - Infinity
Surround - Axiom
Sub - SVSound
My preferance would be to voice match the front 3 channels.
Buy the best stuff that you can afford, with your budget.
SVS is a good sub company.

I would not trade for the Pioneer 1020 receiver.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, you at least want the front 3 from the same speaker line. The sub doesn't matter and the surrounds aren't as critical.
 
M

MMcK

Enthusiast
Alright then I'll probably go with the Infinity front 3.

Axiom QS8 Surround (558)
SVSound PC12-NSD DSP (700)
Auralex Subdude (50)
Infinity PC351 (268)
Infinity Primus P363 (500)
Comes out to be 2078$.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Alright then I'll probably go with the Infinity front 3.

Axiom QS8 Surround (558)
SVSound PC12-NSD DSP (700)
Auralex Subdude (50)
Infinity PC351 (268)
Infinity Primus P363 (500)
Comes out to be 2078$.
If you are going with the Infinity, I would also get Infinity for surround speakers.

Keep in mind that the surround speakers are for ambient sound and panning effects only. They probably only carry about 10% of the total soundtrack.
 
M

MMcK

Enthusiast
Would that be a problem with the size room I have and the mounting situation? I feel like the higher quality surrounds would aid it filling the room.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Axiom QS8 Surround (558)
SVSound PC12-NSD DSP (700)
Auralex Subdude (50)
NHT Absolute Zero ThreeC Center (450)
Infinity Primus P363 (660)
Not a good idea.
  1. The front three need to be from the same brand and product line. If you like the Infinity Primus P363 then use the PC351 center. $500/pr shipped is the going rate for P363 online.
  2. The Axiom QS8 should be wall mounted and not up against the ceiling. If you're going with the Infinities up front then I'd go with the Infinity P152 bookshelves attached to ceiling mounts. There are several available that should do the job. If room filling ability is that important then the P162/163 they're available but a bit large to hang from the ceiling.
  3. The sub does not need to match the speakers but make sure that you get SVS to size the sub for your room before pulling the trigger.
 
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M

MMcK

Enthusiast
Not a good idea.
  1. The front three need to be from the same brand and product line. If you like the Infinity Primus P363 then use the PC351 center. $500/pr shipped is the going rate for P363 online.
  2. The Axiom QS8 should be wall mounted and not up against the ceiling. If you're going with the Infinities up front then I'd go with the Infinity P152 bookshelves attached to ceiling mounts. There are several available that should do the job. If room filling ability is that important then the P162/163 they're available but a bit large to hang from the ceiling.
  3. The sub does not need to match the speakers but make sure that you get SVS to size the sub for your room before pulling the trigger.
Is it absolutely vital for the QS8 to be mounted on the wall or on a stand at the right level?

I wouldn't worry about how large the 162/163 are to hang from the ceiling, no one is tall enough to hit their head on it. Is there any mount that would even allow for the 162/163 to be hung?

In theory I could trash the ceiling mount idea (Even though it is already in place by the contractor who built the house) and get two stands for the QS8's.

If I end up going with dual 162/163's I could probably up the sub to a higher model.

Are you sure the
SVS PB12-Plus DSP

is on backorder? I don't see anything there that says it does. (Probably just blind)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Is it absolutely vital for the QS8 to be mounted on the wall or on a stand at the right level?
Stands would work but bipolar surrounds are usually mounted a couple of feet above ear level.

I think what he was referring to is that a bipolar speaker spreads the sound field out making it harder to localize the source of the sound. It's personal taste. Some prefer the non-localized sound of bi/dipolar speakers and some like conventional speakers for surrounds. Again it's personal taste and I have dipoles as my bedroom surrounds and monopoles in my family room. You have to live with them so go with what you like.

I wouldn't worry about how large the 162/163 are to hang from the ceiling, no one is tall enough to hit their head on it. Is there any mount that would even allow for the 162/163 to be hung?
These Omni-Mounts might work but I haven't tried them and I don't recall if the P162/163 has a mounting hole on the back.

Are you sure the
SVS PB12-Plus DSP is on backorder? I don't see anything there that says it does. (Probably just blind)
Are you asking me? I have no idea but it's important to confirm with the manufacturer that the sub is powerful enough for the room.
 
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M

MMcK

Enthusiast
The P143 has a 1/4" - 20 threaded insert. According to the owners manual that is the only one with such insert.

That mount is 3/8'' but I could just add an 3/8 female to 1/4 male adapter no problem.


So for surrounds would it be advisable to go with the

Infinity P143(2) - 150
NHT N-AZB Absolute Zero(2) - 350

NHT N-AZB Absolute Zero (350)
Infinity PC351 (268)
Infinity P363 (500)
(1118)

Leaving about 1200 for sub.

Infinity P143 (150)
Infinity PC351 (268)
Infinity P363 (500)
(918)

Leaving about 1400 for sub.

Honestly I could just go 1400 sub on the 1st setup as well.

I would consider 4 towers but the area behind the couch is frequently used to walk in and I have kids. I would have to move the couch closer (Not that much of a problem) but I have a feeling the speakers would get bumped into quite often.

Sholling said:
Are you asking me? I have no idea but it's important to confirm with the manufacturer that the sub is powerful enough for the room.
No the guy who posted first said they were on backorder but there is nothing there that confirms it. I'll just contact the manufacturer.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
If you are doing Infinity fronts - then save money, and go with
Infinity for surrounds.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Good info and suggestions for you here, MMcK :)

The SVSound PB12-Plus DSP is on back-order until mid-April. If you order one now, it will not ship out until mid-April. And just a heads up, SVSound is almost always delayed. When they say mid-April, it might mean June, July or August! It's the thing I hate the most about SVSound, but their subwoofers are worth it if you're willing to wait and possibly be told there's an additional delay.

The cylinder version, the PC12-Plus DSP is also on back-order until mid-April. That indicates that SVSound is currently out of supply on the amps most likely - possibly the drivers, but more likely the amps. They make the cylinder tubes themselves in the USA, so those are pretty much never out of stock (hence the PC12-NSD DSP and PC13-Ultra DSP being in stock, but not their PB box equivalents).

If you are able to afford the PB12-Plus DSP and don't mind waiting for it to arrive, you can be almost certain that it will have no trouble what-so-ever in filling your room with bass. One of the great things about SVSound's new DSP amplifiers is that they make the subwoofers virtually unbreakable. If you try to push them beyond their output limits, the processing kicks in and simply limits the output to where the subwoofer remains safe and below the point of really nasty distortion.

The amp in the PC12-NSD DSP is not quite as advanced, but you still get the protection circuitry. It will not play as loud. I agree that it would be a good idea to contact SVSound and find out if it will have adequate output for your room size. But you need not worry about damaging the subwoofer if you happen to try and push it beyond its output limitations. The protection circuitry will not allow it and you will simply have a more compressed volume level, but not a safety concern :)

As others have noted, the difference between direct-radiating surround speakers and diffuse surround speakers boils down to a matter of personal preference and taste. I happen to prefer diffuse surround speakers, so I also usually end up recommending diffuse surround speakers.

As others have said, you want to make sure that the front three speakers (Left, Right, Center) match perfectly in timbre and tone. The easiest way to to this is to purchase the front three all from the same company and all within the same product line.

The subwoofer can definitely come from another company - there is zero need to match brands with the subwoofer and speakers.

The surround speakers will ideally match the timbre and tone of the front three speakers, but it is much less noticeable and not nearly as high a priority. Particularly with movies vs. music, there is much less of a need for the surrounds to perfectly match the front speakers. The job of the surround speakers in movies is to create ambience and a sense of being enveloped by the sound. For that reason, they don't need to perfectly match the front three and I also strongly feel that diffuse surround speakers do a better job of delivering that ambience and envelopment.

The Axiom QS8 surround speakers require space above, below and on either side. They are a unique "quadpole" design where there are drivers firing up, down and both to the left and right. If you are ceiling mounting, Axiom offers a ceiling bracket specifically designed for the QS surrounds:

http://axiomaudio.com/fullmetalceilingbracket.html

Unfortunately, it's rather pricey :(

I have to say, if getting the matching Infinity bookshelf speakers as your surrounds allows you to upgrade the subwoofer and remain within your budget, I'd be in favor of that. I do love the QS8 surrounds, but they cost more and the matching ceiling brackets set you back another $120. With a ceiling mount, your surround speakers are going to be up high, which will help even direct-firing bookshelf speakers to sound more diffuse and expansive. So I can get behind that plan if it means a better subwoofer!

And again, if you're ok with the tall cylinder, black carpet-exterior look, the SVSound PC12-Plus DSP saves you a little bit of money vs. the PB12-Plus DSP. The PC is $100 less to start, about $10 less to ship and it would fit on the $50 Auralex SubDude rather than the $80 Auralex Great GRAMMA. It's not huge savings, and if you far prefer the box shape rather than the cylinder, I'd question the worth. But if it's a matter of shaving a few dollars to stay on budget and you don't mind the cylinder look, it's a great alternative and a way to lower the price a smidge :)
 
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