why do bookshelves have "tighter" imaging?

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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
title pretty much describes it, baffle diffraction not being a factor, why is this? every bookshelf i've heard compared to its larger tower of similar design i have noticed this. the bookshelves seem to have a tighter center image and not as spacious of an image while the towers seem to have a wider more spacious image but not as tight of a center image.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
There are actually a lot of things that can come into play here.

First up, there's driver integration or the "summing" of the sound coming from the various drivers. Many bookshelf-sized speakers are a simple two-way design, ie. one tweeter and one woofer in close proximity to one another with a very simple cross-over. Such speakers can essentially act as a "point source", even when you are sitting quite close to them. In essence, the sound seems to come from a single point in space, rather than from two separate drivers.

With a larger tower speaker, you will often have more drivers - perhaps something like a tweeter, a mid-range driver plus two or more bass woofers. The cross-over is much more complicated with a 2.5-way, 3-way or 4-way design. In order for the sound from all of those drivers to "sum" properly and seem as though they are a point source rather than several separate drivers, you have to sit considerably further away.

So that brings up another factor - seating distance. The closer you are to a speaker, the more you hear the direct sound coming from the speaker vs. the reflected sound off of walls, ceiling and floor, and other objects in the room. With a tower speaker, you are forced to sit further away so that the drivers can "sum". But, as a result, you also end up hearing proportionally more reflected sound. This makes the sound seem more "spacious" as a whole, but also less pin-point precise.

There are also human hearing factors involved. Our hearing is more directional at higher frequencies. Bookshelf speakers tend to produce a lot less low frequency output than tower speakers. If you are hearing proportionally more high frequencies, you will tend to find that sound more directional. This is actually one of the reasons why I strongly favor separating the bass frequency production - allowing subwoofers to handle the low bass while using smaller speakers to handle the mid-range and treble. The subwoofers can be optimally placed for even, directionless bass sound while the speakers can be separately placed for optimal directionality.

There are psycho-acoustics involved. When we SEE a bigger speaker, we HEAR a "bigger" sound - even if it doesn't actually exist! It is amazing what surprising results true double-blind listening tests can reveal. Without having our vision involved, we report hearing sounds that are much closer to what anechoic measurements verify as what was actually produced by the speakers. But when we SEE the speakers, we report hearing all kinds of things that cannot be objectively measured! My favorite tests are the ones where new speakers are brought into the room and people remark on the huge difference in sound that they heard. Then, it is later revealed that neither of the speakers they SAW were ever actually playing! Instead, in both cases, the same, unseen speakers were actually playing! The sound was always identical, but the visual difference created a psycho-acoustic difference that people SWORE they heard.

Back in REAL difference land, the room once again comes into play via structure-borne transmission. Very few people (sadly) decouple their speakers. Most people have spikes or cones or some other type of "feet" on the bottom of their tower speakers. Those "feet" couple tower speakers to the floor. And every little movement of the towers' cabinets are then physically transmitted into the floor. The floor (yes, even a concrete floor) shakes in sympathy with the speakers. The floor shakes the walls, the walls shake the ceiling. And the result is sound that actually emanates from the room surfaces themselves!

Bookshelf speakers should also be decoupled, but due to their smaller size and fewer drivers, they typically create less powerful vibrations in the first place, plus they have a table or stand inbetween them and the floor. That table or stand will shake in sympathy with the bookshelf speakers, which is why bookshelf speakers - just like ALL speakers - should be decoupled. But less physical shaking is transmitted into the room surfaces themselves as the bookshelf speakers are somewhat more separated and not directly in contact with the floor the way most people's towers are.

The cabinets of the speakers also produce sound. And with substantially larger cabinets, towers have more "cabinet coloration" of the sound than bookshelf speakers.

The bottom line of all of this is that, with a tower speaker, there are more sources and more opportunites for you to hear sound that is coming from somewhere OTHER than the direct sound of the speaker itself. The cabinet is making more noise; more noise is being transmitted into and by the structure of the room itself; the speaker is producing more bass, which in turn, interacts more forcefully with the room; the cross-over network is more complicated, which can alter the sound that is actually coming from the drivers; tower speakers call for more amplifier power, which can reveal deficiencies in your power amps that bookshelf speakers won't; you are likely sitting farther away from tower speakers, which means proportionally more reflected sound; the greater number of drivers means that a tower might not properly "sum" depending on how far away you are sitting. And then there's actually the most likely culprit, which is that your EYES are tricking your EARS into "hearing" a difference that doesn't actually exist!

So there can be a lot going on, but it isn't a hard and steadfast rule. It's entirely possible for a tower speaker to image just as well as a bookshelf, just as a bookshelf/subwoofer combo can sound just as spacious and open and "deep" as a tower. The trick is to acoustically treat the room, eliminate structure-borne sound transmission by decoupling ALL speakers and subwoofers, and use proper placement so that the drivers of any given speaker have enough distance to "sum" properly into an apparent point source. Have ample amplifier power available so that the speakers are not "choked" by inadequate power or worse, amplifier clipping/distortion. And finally, don't let your eyes deceive you!

Hope that helps!
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
There are psycho-acoustics involved. When we SEE a bigger speaker, we HEAR a "bigger" sound
i'm guessing this has a lot to do with it, i'm a sucker for placebo type effects. it also could have had something to do with the fact the floorstanders had larger horns then the bookshelfs

tower speakers call for more amplifier power
actually towers are more efficient MOST of the time.

With a larger tower speaker, you will often have more drivers
this is why using 3 or four woofers playing the exact same frequency range is a dumb idea, especially when those drivers are closer to the floor, the lower drivers need to either be the .5 in a 2.5 way or some other lower frequency that isn't pinpoint directional.
 
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sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
...............


i'm not referring to polk, actually, i first noticed this on the KLIPSCH RF series speakers at the audio dealer we have here.... :rolleyes: the bookshelfs sounded more pinpoint then the floorstanders.
That explains it.:p
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
i this is why using 3 or four woofers playing the exact same frequency range is a dumb idea, especially when those drivers are closer to the floor, the lower drivers need to either be the .5 in a 2.5 way or some other lower frequency that isn't pinpoint directional.
As long as the length of the array of drivers is larger than the frequency wavelength being produced by the collection of drivers, there's usually not much issue. Especially not on the horizontal plane, and most of us don't locate well on the vertical plane anyways.

Where people run into imaging issues moreso is bad crossover design, poorly matched off axis response, and poor placement. One of the best imaging speakers i've heard was the definition of big and bulky, with a very wide baffle too:

 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
As long as the wavelength of the array of drivers is larger than the frequency being produced by the collection of drivers, there's usually not much issue.

Where people run into imaging issues moreso is bad crossover design, poorly matched off axis response, and poor placement. One of the best imaging speakers i've heard was the definition of big and bulky, with a very wide baffle too:

you forgot to mention ugly ;)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
If by ugly you mean "I want one in my house" :p
 
C

Chicagorep

Junior Audioholic
I guess it depends on bookshelf, my bookshelf speaker have incredible imaging and sound stage
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
They... don't. Unless you're listening to Polks or something :rolleyes: :cool:

http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=169
I don't know. It has been my experience that among standard speakers (and I don't consider that Focal a typical speaker!) this difference is real!

I have to say I reject the linked argument. How many manufacturers hold true to the constraints in bold below (and he left out "the same relative location of the drivers")? I can think of none! I don't think this is real world "myth busting".
If the theory holds true, this floor standing speaker will not create the same quality soundstage as our monitors. Oh, but upon listening, we find that it does – the performance is exactly the same! That should not be surprizing. It is the same driver, same baffle width, same internal volume and the same cabinet tuning. The only difference is the shape of the cabinet.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Seriously? I wrote all that and it didn't put a dent into answering this question? :eek: :p

j/k
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
It is the same driver, same baffle width, same internal volume and the same cabinet tuning.
but that's just it......floorstanders usually are the same drivers and baffle width with MORE internal volume and a LOWER tuning, hence they have much lower response. this, besides not having to find something to set your speakers on, is one of the biggest advantages of having a floorstander over a bookshelf.

and FR, your post was very informative and answered my question thoroughly.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
but that's just it......floorstanders usually are the same drivers and baffle width with MORE internal volume and a LOWER tuning, hence they have much lower response. this, besides not having to find something to set your speakers on, is one of the biggest advantages of having a floorstander over a bookshelf.

and FR, your post was very informative and answered my question thoroughly.
That is not true. every speaker has optimal box volume and tuning. Trying to add volume and tune lower makes a bad speaker with poor spl.

Salks argument is correct, it has to be.

If you make a bigger cabinet with the same drivers you have to add drivers, however F3 will be the same, but spl will be up 6 db is you use two drivers of the same impedance.

Many thing affect imaging. Baffle width, dispersion, refections frequency response and driver integration.

Now speakers can image excessively, and that is a red flag for me. If you go to a concert and close your eyes, it is hard to be definite about the source of individual sounds. Visual cues play a huge part in localization.

Now I have noticed that over imaging is a sign of excess upper midrange and HF energy. This is particularly likely to happen with no or inadequate BSC. This is just the situation in most bookshelf speakers. It takes one hell of a good small driver to handle full BSC. When it does it will be a relatively expensive speaker and may also be a hard drive.

This is the case with the small ATC monitors. These diminutive speakers can produce around 103 db in a typical room with excellent quality. They sound much bigger than they are and have a realistic perspective. Cost around $1000 per pair for the SCM 7, but probably the best small bookshelf around.

Billy Woodman is an absolute master of driver design. So you don't get that artificial thin sounding hyper delicate over imaged sound so prevalent among bookshelf speakers.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i am not challenging your response, but if this is true how come so many speaker MFG. do use the same drivers and intergrate them into larger cabinets?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
i am not challenging your response, but if this is true how come so many speaker MFG. do use the same drivers and intergrate them into larger cabinets?
There are various reasons. In sealed alignments you have a little more leeway in enclosure size. It affects F3 little but changes Qt. For ported enclosures you have little leeway. Having said that there are quite a few miss aligned speakers around.

The other thing that occasionally happens is that the bookshelf is sealed and the larger speaker ported, or the bookshelf may be a Qb4 box and the floor stander a TL, which takes a lot more volume and will usually add bass extension.

It does happen that some floor standers have a closed space not part of the enclosure, which is filled with sand, to avoid having a stand.

If you use the same driver in a larger ported enclosure you need to add drivers. Two drivers require twice the volume of one, as VAS is doubled. Adding a driver makes BSC a lot easier, especially if it is a 2.5 way, which is why these are so popular.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
the multiple drivers explained my question. what i was referring to was often time i will see a bookshelf with the same driver as a floorstander, more often then not the floor stander does have two or more drivers in it whereas the bookshelf usually has only one. but my next question is why does adding more drivers which in turn increases the cabinet size contribute to more bass response?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
the multiple drivers explained my question. what i was referring to was often time i will see a bookshelf with the same driver as a floorstander, more often then not the floor stander does have two or more drivers in it whereas the bookshelf usually has only one. but my next question is why does adding more drivers which in turn increases the cabinet size contribute to more bass response?
For ported (Qb4) alignments adding drivers does not add bass extension. F3 will be the same. In other words one driver has a box half the volume of two.

Say the F3 is 50 hz for both boxes. Why does the larger speaker sound as if it has more bass. Well it does. F3 does not tell the whole story.

So lets take those drivers, there was one, now we have two.

The impedance is halved so the two speakers will draw twice the power from the amp. So that raises sensitivity 3db. Now because of the acoustic coupling of two drivers we get another 3db. So we have increased output by 6db.

Now because we have two drivers to work with, BCS is likely to be much more complete.

Now a properly BSC speaker sounds as if it has more bass which it does.

It is actually the frequencies in the mid to upper bass, that are perceived as bass.

So if you take two speakers, and one has an F3 of 30 Hz say and another an F3 of 50 Hz say. Now lets say that the speaker with an F3 of 3O Hz has no or little BSC and the speaker with the F3 of 50 Hz has optimal BSC, then listeners will identify the speaker with the higher F3 as having more bass, even though it has less bass extension.

Now I believe inadequate BSC is the biggest reason people drive subs hot. Because of the perceived lack of bass with inadequate BSC subs are driven hot as a psychological compensation. That then sets in train a whole host of room problems and a lot more besides.
 
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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
do you mind explaining what baffle step compensation is and what is does?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
do you mind explaining what baffle step compensation is and what is does?
We explained that in a thread a few days ago about whether bass required more power.

Basically in a narrow fronted cabinet there is a first order bass loss starting at a frequency related to the baffle width. This is because at a certain frequency the wavelength becomes large enough that the baffle is no longer a boundary and sound is lost to the rear. For a typical speaker with a 7" baffle the loss begins to occur at 650 Hz, by my calculation.

Now in free space the loss is 6db per octave. However because of room boundary effects and room gain the loss is typically half that.

The problem is it ends up being different for every room and speaker placement in the room.

So BSC adds boost to the speaker to compensate for that loss. This is done in the crossover network. But obviously more power is drawn from the amp, and all things being equal in a passive design that is associated with an impedance drop, otherwise more power could not be drawn from the amp.
 
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