help me choose the bookshelf speakers

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davy12

Audioholic Intern
my room size is 20*13ft. after a lot of back and forth i was finally able to convince my wife of bookshelf speakers. We went to bestbuy and listened to few bookshelfs we liked the Energy CB10 of all the ones we listened there (pioneer bs21, polk tsi100). They showed it paired with energy center cc10 vs definitive pro center 1000 and we liked the definitive pro center1000 better. (we liked the smaller profile on that as well).

I plan to use it only in a 3.1 setup for now, so my question is what is comparable/better than energy cb10 above combo I listened in bestbuy. I read infinity primus 152 and Behringer 2030p are very good ones. how does it compare to cb10 and also which center should be paired with each of these ? I would prefer a center speaker witch a flat-profile so I can try to fit it inside my entertainment center's center console.

my total budget for fronts + center ~ 350 and subwoofer for ~150. The receiver I have narrowed down so far is Denon 1911.

Thanks for your suggestions.
 
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zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Sounds like you are set on getting your system from BB, which is perfectly fine.

One thing to note. You liked one brands center, and the other brands mains. Don't mix. Find the compromise that works best for you.

Sub brand doesn't have to match.
 
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davy12

Audioholic Intern
i am not particular in getting it from bestbuy. I want to know what is comparable or better than the Energy Cb10 and I can buy it from any website.

Energy CB10, infinity primus 152, Behringer 2030p or anything else ?
 
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ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
my room size is 20*13ft. after a lot of back and forth i was finally able to convince my wife of bookshelf speakers. We went to bestbuy and listened to few bookshelfs we liked the Energy CB10 of all the ones we listened there (pioneer bs21, polk tsi100). They showed it paired with energy center cc10 vs definitive pro center 1000 and we liked the definitive pro center1000 better. (we liked the smaller profile on that as well).

I plan to use it only in a 3.1 setup for now, so my question is what is comparable/better than energy cb10 above combo I listened in bestbuy. I read infinity primus 152 and Behringer 2030p are very good ones. how does it compare to cb10 and also which center should be paired with each of these ? I would prefer a center speaker witch a flat-profile so I can try to fit it inside my entertainment center's center console.

my total budget for fronts + center ~ 350 and subwoofer for ~150. The receiver I have narrowed down so far is Denon 1911.

Thanks for your suggestions.


Hey Davy,
Three Infinity Primus 162 would make an excellent front stage, I have these speakers in another setup and they perform rather well. Crutchfield has them for $85 a piece delivered. You can get your sub from Parts Express, the sub 100 or 120 for $139 and $159 respectively. Hope this helps.
Jeff
 
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davy12

Audioholic Intern
thanks for the reply.
how does P162 and Behringer B2031P compare?

also am i loosing out much if I go with p152 (wife seems to prefer the p152 due to comparatively smaller profile than 162)
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, this is going to be a bit tough...

especially wanting to get a subwoofer for ~$150 - that's going to severly limit the sort of quality you'll be able to attain.

What I would suggest is that you forego the center speaker altogether and focus on getting a decent pair of bookshelf speakers and a sub for your $500 total budget.

If you purchase speakers that image well and have wide, even dispersion, they can create a very convincing "phantom" center sound. An actual center speaker will, of course, perfectly lock dialogue to the screen, but a center speaker is also the only speaker in a traditional 5.1 setup that is not - strictly speaking - necessary. Get a front pair that images very well and you will not miss that physical center speaker!

Another concern was your plan to put your center speaker inside an entertainment cabinet of some sort. That is a really problematic placement. Don't get me wrong - it is very common and I fully understand the desire to do it from a look perspective. But in terms of the havoc it wreaks on your audio quality, it's something you should try to avoid. Naturally, not having a physical center speaker at all solves that issue!

Now, focusing on your front L/R bookshelf speakers - will they have more of an "open air" setting around them? Or will they be placed within some sort of enclosure as well? And even if they are not within an enclosure, will they be placed quite close to any walls?

I'm sort of guessing that they will.

If that's the case, you'll want to look for speakers that allow for adjustment. Several speakers have "boundary compensation" and "treble adjustment" switches. Failing that, a sealed speaker rather than a ported speaker would be preferable.

Most speakers have a port or ports - that is, a hole of some sort in the cabinet (often in the back). That hole allows the speaker to use the cabinet itself as a resonance chamber (think the body of an acoustic guitar or a violin). That allows a small speaker to have more output (louder) at lower frequencies than a sealed speaker. But it also means that the speaker needs more room to "breathe". Sound actually comes out of that port, plus air moves in and out of that port - which can cause noise if that air movement is impeded. Finally, there are some ported speakers that come with a plug to essentially turn them into a sealed speaker.

Your room size is medium, which means you also need fairly decent output capabilities. You don't want to be struggling to hear your new speakers because they are too quiet or get "screechy" at louder levels.

When it comes to the subwoofer, I'm of two schools of thought for a budget like yours. On the one hand, you can spend almost all of your budget on the sub and get a pretty good sub - although you're still likely to want to upgrade it in the future. On the other hand, you can get a very inexpensive sub that "isn't offensively bad" - which is about all you can ask for in the ~$200-ish or lower price range.

If you'd prefer a "pretty good" sub, I'd point you at this HSU STF-1:
http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

It doesn't play super-low (gets down to about 35Hz...don't believe the 25Hz spec on the website, cause it ain't happening in the real world! :p ), but it plays with good transient response and quite decent output, so in terms of the "quality" of the bass that it produces, it's a pretty good sub. But it's also $350 and there's shipping on top of that, so you've pretty much blown your budget and you'd have to settle from some pretty cheap bookshelf front speakers!

If you'd rather stay on budget, I'd point you to this Onkyo SKW-204:
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-SKW204-Reflex-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B000HMLP5A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299401182&sr=8-1

It's only $130 shipped, and out of all the really cheap subs out there, it's easily my favorite. "It's not bad!" is my constantly surprised and bemused response whenever I hear this little guy in action. Onkyo includes this sub in all of their HTiB (home-theater-in-a-box) packages, and it's a big part of why Onkyo's HTiB systems are the only ones that do not make me feel sick to my stomach if I recommend them.

This is no "earth-shaker", and it can't possibly compete with a really purpose-built subwoofer. But it's surprisingly ok for its price and actually pretty impressive if you're coming at it with the right sort of expectation level. For ME to say, "it's not bad" means that most people would think it's downright "good", so I can recommend this little Onkyo sub, and honestly, with your budget, I think it would make more sense and be the better way to go overall. Either way, if you keep with this home theater hobby, you're going to eventually want to upgrade your subwoofer! With this Onkyo, you're barely out any cash, you can put the money you save towards some better front L/R bookshelf speakers, and compared to what else you could buy within your budget, it will at least do its job and not totally disappoint you!

So that's the sub out of the way, let's take a look at some speaker options.

I do have to say that, in this low price range, the Behringer B2030P Studio Monitors are about as accurate a speaker as you can find anywhere. But I hesitate to recommend them to you for a couple of reasons. Mainly, they're quite large - way bigger than most people expect them to be. And honestly, they're pretty ugly (IMO anyway :p ). They're built for the purpose of being used for work in a studio - pretty much zero thought was put into making them fit a home's decor.

I'd say your ears did you proud when you preferred the Energy speakers over the other Best Buy options. While I wouldn't hold up the Energy C-Series as the epitome of great sound or anything, they are at least designed using the scientifically-based research that came from the NRC and gave birth to so many well-known and respected speaker companies such as Paradigm, PSB, JBL, Athena, Energy and Axiom.

I'm going to stick with that "Canadian sound" and recommend Axiom's (axiomaudio.com) excellent M3v3 speakers to you. I've been very, very impressed with Axiom's newest v3 tweeter. It offers wider dispersion and higher output capabilities than the older Ti and v2 tweeters - which were already good. But the newest v3 tweeters offer better imaging, which, as I mentioned, is going to be a key characteristic in choosing speakers for you.

Now, the standard bookshelf M3v3 are ported speakers. As such, they sound best when they have some distance between them and any walls, as I talked about above. They will function just fine so long as they have a minimum of 2 inches of space behind them. But with so little space, their mid-bass is going to sound a little bloated due to their ported design.

If you are going to have them placed very close to a wall, I would recommend that you go for the on-wall version of the M3v3 speakers. As the name suggests, they literally mount on the wall with a unique bracket. You actually mount the bracket on the wall and attach the speaker wire to the bracket. Then the speakers themselves just snap onto the bracket, rather than trying to attach speaker wire to the speaker cabinets - which can be a pain with on-wall speakers.

For the price range, for your needs, and for the sort of sound quality that you already prefer, the Axiom M3v3 speakers are a superb choice, IMO. It helps that they come in a wide variety of mounting options - including the standard ported bookshelf, an in-wall version, an on-wall version, and in-wall/on-wall hybrid version and even and outdoor version!

The wide and even dispersion of the newest v3 tweeter creates a very convincing "phantom" center image and makes a skinny, placement-compromised center speaker unnecessary. And the output capabilities mean no problems in your medium-sized room. They're a good-looking speaker - if you want, they are available in a HUGE selection of optional upgrade finishes for additional cost. Axiom's upgraded vinyl finishes are only $30 extra on a pair of M3 speakers. Real wood veneers costs an extra $160/pair, so that is out of your price range.

The Axiom M3v3 are a big upgrade to what you are considering. Best of all, in the future, if you decide to go for a much larger 5.1 or 7.1 sound system, they can serve very well as your front L/R speakers, or they can easily move to the surround or surround back positions. They also have enough bass output on their own that they can serve as excellent 2nd room speakers.

The little Onkyo SKW-204 subwoofer will fill in more of the bottom end for movies and TV and deliver some nice rumbles and explosions that the M3v3 on their own can't quite reach. For music though, try the M3v3 on their own as well as partnered with the SKW-204. You might find that you like the M3v3 without the aid of the subwoofer for music-only purposes :)

Hope that helps!
 
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davy12

Audioholic Intern
thanks for the delayed response and recommendation of Axiom m3v3.
i plan to keep the fronts in "open air" (not inside a shelf or anything") and even the center will be open in front just surrounded on side.
Is your recommendation of axiom m3v3 still hold correct for this. I agree Behringer kind of looks ugly and axiom is much better.
Is there any retail stores where we can hear the axioms in action ?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Normally I'd say that if you like the sound of the CB10s then go ahead and get the CB-10/CC-100 combination. However if the center is going to be enclosed then it needs to be front ported or sealed and if I recall correctly those Energies are all rear ported. And yes the center and mains do need to match. Is there another place you could put the center like over the TV and aimed down to ear level at the seating location?

Three front ported P162s across the front would leave you $250 for a decent entry level subwoofer. They may be a bit big for the wife's taste but they're darn good bang for limited bucks. I haven't tried it but it should be possible to rotate the tweeter and wave guide of one of them 90 degrees so that you can lay it on its side as a center. Perhaps someone else here has tried it and can chime in.

The other option as suggested is to go 2.1 for now.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome, davy12 :)

To be clear, I do think highly of the audio quality offered by the Behringer speakers. And for the insanely low price they are selling for right now, I've zero problem recommending them if sound quality is your only concern. My only hesitation is looks and physical size. Those have nothing to do with sound quality, but they are still valid concerns none-the-less. I'm just seeing a few indications that looks and size ARE concerns - at least for your significant other. I just don't want to dismiss those concerns out of hand because the whole idea is to be happy! It's fine and dandy to be happy with the sound quality and the price, but if the looks or size are causes for concern, then I think it's worth factoring that into the decision as well :)

The standard Axiom M3v3 bookshelf speakers placed on a stand or table or otherwise in an "open air" setting - that would be a fantastic way to go, IMO. You just don't want to put them inside of an entertainment center where they will have an enclosure all around them except for the front only. The same goes for your center speaker. Even though the front is open, having that enclosure around the back and sides affects the sound in a negative way. A sealed design, or better yet, a specifically "in-cabinet" design would be what you would want for that center speaker.

Even though I am not a huge fan of Axiom's center speakers (other than the huge and very impressive VP180), they are at least a sealed design. The VP100v3 might work ok in the setup that you are describing.

But that would be something you would add down the road. Right now, if you want to stay within budget, the M3v3 bookshelf speakers on their own would be my recommendation. They really do image very, very well. And with that imaging, they can create a very convincing "phantom" center without the need for an actual, physical center speaker to be present.

Axiom does not sell in any stores. They strictly sell direct via their website: axiomaudio.com. I completely agree that it would be best to hear them for yourself first though. And there are a couple of ways to do that:

1) if you go to Axiom's website, they have their own forum. There are quite a few people from all over the world who frequent that forum and are happy to have people over to their homes so that perspective Axiom customers can hear Axiom speaker first hand. If you're in North America, it's highly likely that you will find someone fairly close to you. I know that this can seem a little strange, but it can also be a lot of fun. The Axiom fans who do this love to "talk shop" with other enthusiasts and it's a good way to get an audition and more information than most stores will be able to give you.

2) Axiom does offer a 30-day return policy. The only cost to you would be return shipping - which for speaker the size and weight of the M3v3 bookshelf speakers, isn't all that high. Speaking from my own experience, Axiom really does offer very friendly and helpful and responsive customer service. It is a highlight of purchasing from them - as it should be! This is the best way to audition speakers, as you get to hear them in your own room with your own equipment and your own music and movies. If you decide to return them, you would be out the return shipping cost, but, like I said, it isn't all that high. I do understand that you already have a tight budget though, so I can appreciate not wanting to eat that return shipping cost. That said, I believe the chances of you actually wanting to return the M3v3 speakers is rather low. They are very good speakers, they are very well made and they look nice. And at least you CAN return them for what amounts to a very low return shipping cost if it turns out that I'm wrong ;)

I wish that I could offer you some thoughts on the Infinity speakers that you are considering, but I have not heard them for myself. I know that several forums have had several excited posts about the low-cost Inifinity speakers, but I've also seen some backlash (which always seems to be the case on forums :p )

Anywho, I CAN say that I've heard the new v3 Axiom speakers and the Onkyo SKW-204 sub. I always get a kick out of that little Onkyo sub because it's better than it ought to be for that kind of price and size. And I have been really impressed with the new v3 Axiom speakers because the new tweeter has moved closer in performance to some of the really expensive and refined tweeters that are out there. I won't say it's the equal to the Beryllium tweeters that I favor. But it has moved noticeably closer to that level of performance, which I still think is a pretty big deal!

The new v3 Axioms also look really nice with their clean front baffles (thanks to the new magnetic grills with no pins or screws visible any longer). And in terms of having some really nice mid-bass "bloom" and enough low end to integrate really well with a subwoofer or even play all on their own, the M3 speakers have always been champs and the M3v3 maintain that legacy.

When it comes time to expand to a full 5.1 or 7.1 system, it's very easy to do so with Axiom's large selection of speakers of every type. As a special note, their QS surround speakers are a particular treat. I'm personally strongly in favor of diffuse surround speakers and the QS surrounds really perform the job of a surround speaker in a most impressive way.

I'm NOT a huge fan of the VP100 or VP150 center speakers. They do not maintain a perfect tonal match to any of Axioms bookshelf or tower speakers. So as sounds pan across the front sound stage, you can hear the difference as the sound moves from left to center to right or vice versa. The VP180 is a real treat though, but it is also HUGE, craves lots of amplifier power and is expensive and heavy...and did I mention HUGE? That said, Axiom did choose to make the VP100 and VP150 sealed designs - an obvious design compromise made to address situations exactly like yours where the center speaker is going to be placed in an enclosure.

Anywho, as always, I simply recommend what I would buy if I had your budget and placement options :) If you liked the Energy C-Series speakers, I think you'd be really impressed by the noticeably better detail and clarity offered by the Axiom M3v3 speakers, while at the same time, they maintain that same sort of balance and accurate tone that is shared by virtually all of the "Canadian sound" speakers of which the Energy C-Series speakers gave you a little taste ;)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Any Marantz reciever can drive 4 ohm speakers and some can be had for a very affordable price....Just saying....:)
I'm not disputing you but I'm not seeing 4ohm certification for the Marantz 1601 and both the 5005 and 6005 are only for rated 6 and 8ohm loads on their spec sheets. The least expensive receiver that I know of that is specifically certified for 4ohm loads is the Onkyo TX-NR708. While a receiver may (or may not) be able to drive a low impedance load I don't like to put someones money on the line when they may find out the hard way that their new toys won't play well together. It's just something that the OP needs to be aware of.

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR5005_Spec_Sheet_v2.pdf
http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR6005_Spec_Sheet.pdf
 
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sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Even though I am not a huge fan of Axiom's center speakers (other than the huge and very impressive VP180), they are at least a sealed design. The VP100v3 might work ok in the setup that you are describing.
This is why I didn't by their M22 bookshelves for my bedroom. The VP100 center's 95-20kHz frequency response left me cold. But they are sealed which may help with the OP's placement quandary.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not disputing you but I'm not seeing 4ohm certification for the Marantz 1601 and both the 5005 and 6005 are only for rated 6 and 8ohm loads on their spec sheets. The least expensive receiver that I know of that is specifically certified for 4ohm loads is the Onkyo TX-NR708. While a receiver may (or may not) be able to drive a low impedance load I don't like to put someones money on the line when they may find out the hard way that their new toys won't play well together. It's just something that the OP needs to be aware of.

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR5005_Spec_Sheet_v2.pdf
http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR6005_Spec_Sheet.pdf
If no other, the middle-of-line SR 6004 was bench tested by Gene and put out a whopping 204wpc into 4 ohm 20-20khz CONTINUOUS. Marantz receivers are all about audio circuitry, not bells and whistles.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
I'm not disputing you but I'm not seeing 4ohm certification for the Marantz 1601 and both the 5005 and 6005 are only for rated 6 and 8ohm loads on their spec sheets. The least expensive receiver that I know of that is specifically certified for 4ohm loads is the Onkyo TX-NR708. While a receiver may (or may not) be able to drive a low impedance load I don't like to put someones money on the line when they may find out the hard way that their new toys won't play well together. It's just something that the OP needs to be aware of.

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR5005_Spec_Sheet_v2.pdf
http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR6005_Spec_Sheet.pdf
I agree with you about being carefull. I was told by a Marantz tech that they can drive 4 ohm speakers so I would hope that their own techs would not lie about something like that.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
If no other, the middle-of-line SR 6004 was bench tested by Gene and put out a whopping 204wpc into 4 ohm 20-20khz CONTINUOUS. Marantz receivers are all about audio circuitry, not bells and whistles.
I wonder why they would leave it out of the spec sheet unless they have some concern. But maybe it's corporate policy.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Most of the time I would say 4ohm is fine. But in this case, seeing as how a Denon 1911 has been chosen, I would steer clear of 4ohm.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with you about being carefull. I was told by a Marantz tech that they can drive 4 ohm speakers so I would hope that their own techs would not lie about something like that.
I have driven 4 ohm Martin Logans, with the Marantz 6003 receiver.
 
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