A Couple of Turntable Questions...

[PearlcorderS701]

You know what's always bothered me? In this day and age, why are the input labels on processors, preamps and receivers for the turntable section referred to as "PHONO"? I am assuming this is in reference to the "phonograph" from years ago, but why, on modern hi fi gear, are these inputs not referred to as "TURNTABLE" or "TRNTBL" or something along those lines?

Also -- as I continue to scrimp and save towards getting the Technics SL-1200 table I want, I wondered...will the cartridge output for this table be compatible with the PHONO input of my Onkyo TX-8555?

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=s

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=i

 

[highfigh]

You know what's always bothered me? In this day and age, why are the input labels on processors, preamps and receivers for the turntable section referred to as "PHONO"? I am assuming this is in reference to the "phonograph" from years ago, but why, on modern hi fi gear, are these inputs not referred to as "TURNTABLE" or "TRNTBL" or something along those lines?

Also -- as I continue to scrimp and save towards getting the Technics SL-1200 table I want, I wondered...will the cartridge output for this table be compatible with the PHONO input of my Onkyo TX-8555?

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=s

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=i

They call it 'phono' because 5 letters fits better than 6 and because calling it anything else means they would have to change the name that has been used for 60 years.

It shows 'Phono (MM) in the specs with 80dB S/N ratio, so it appears that it has a phono preamp built-in.

 

[TLS Guy]

They call it 'phono' because 5 letters fits better than 6 and because calling it anything else means they would have to change the name that has been used for 60 years.

It shows 'Phono (MM) in the specs with 80dB S/N ratio, so it appears that it has a phono preamp built-in.

May be not quite 60 years. On older equipment it is often PU for pickup.

In England they are called Gramophones, and on older British gear you can find the input marked gram. Phonograph is not a common word for record playing equipment in the UK, and you won't see phono on older gear. The commonest is PU for pick up, which is only two letters, and then some are marked gram for gramophone.

 

[Swerd]

May be not quite 60 years. On older equipment it is often PU for pickup.

In England they are called Gramophones, and on older British gear you can find the input marked gram. Phonograph is not a common word for record playing equipment in the UK, and you won't see phono on older gear. The commonest is PU for pick up, which is only two letters, and then some are marked gram for gramophone.

Ah! The English language, spoken differently on both sides of the Atlantic and the Pacific in Australia and New Zealand.

Just saying the word gramophone makes me think of old white-bearded men from the turn of the century (not 2000 but 1900) listening to music recorded on wax cylinders played on a hand-cranked machine using a megaphone attached to the pick up instead of an electrically powered loudspeaker.

Did they really use inputs marked gram in the UK? Its a good thing the French didn't make audio gear. In their effort to always be different from the British, they might have used ounce instead of gram .

 

[highfigh]

May be not quite 60 years. On older equipment it is often PU for pickup.

In England they are called Gramophones, and on older British gear you can find the input marked gram. Phonograph is not a common word for record playing equipment in the UK, and you won't see phono on older gear. The commonest is PU for pick up, which is only two letters, and then some are marked gram for gramophone.

Right, but since the manufacturers all but abandoned turntables since not long after the CD became popular, it's possible that for people like us, who have been involved with this equipment for a long time, time seems a bit compressed and I almost wrote 50 years instead of 60. Also, the word 'phonograph' (1863, when a patent was granted) is actually older than 'gramophone'.

I have to think that there's a whole generation of people who would ask "What is phono?" when they see it the same way people see an icebox. I was in an antique store and a young woman was there with her grandfather. She saw the card on it and said "It still works- what do you do?" and in what I took to be a slightly snide comment, he said "You put ice in it".

Either way, whoever made the decision to use 'phono' undoubtedly grew up seeing that and not 'gramophone'.

 

[ahblaza]

You know what's always bothered me? In this day and age, why are the input labels on processors, preamps and receivers for the turntable section referred to as "PHONO"? I am assuming this is in reference to the "phonograph" from years ago, but why, on modern hi fi gear, are these inputs not referred to as "TURNTABLE" or "TRNTBL" or something along those lines?

Also -- as I continue to scrimp and save towards getting the Technics SL-1200 table I want, I wondered...will the cartridge output for this table be compatible with the PHONO input of my Onkyo TX-8555?

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=s

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=i

Pearl,
What cart. are you planning on using. I believe that almost all MM carts. will be compatible with your receiver's "phono" input. I use a Denon DL-110 which is a high output MC cart with my Onkyo receiver's phono input, I also believe all Onkyo receivers that have phono inputs are of the Moving magnet type, so you should have no problem using any MM cart. or high output MC carts.. If you plan on using a low output MC cart. you will need an outboard phono preamp, just a suggestion if you use a MC cart. the Music Hall Pa 1.2 is an amazing preamp, quiet, neutral and transparent for the asking price, I have the Music Hall and I am very satisfied with it. Hope this helps my friend.
Jeff

 

[TLS Guy]

Ah! The English language, spoken differently on both sides of the Atlantic and the Pacific in Australia and New Zealand.

Just saying the word gramophone makes me think of old white-bearded men from the turn of the century (not 2000 but 1900) listening to music recorded on wax cylinders played on a hand-cranked machine using a megaphone attached to the pick up instead of an electrically powered loudspeaker.

Did they really use inputs marked gram in the UK? Its a good thing the French didn't make audio gear. In their effort to always be different from the British, they might have used ounce instead of gram .

Yes, they certainly did mark inputs gram in the UK.

Phonograph is older, but an American word going back to Edison's cylinders.

In 1887 Emil Berliner called his flat disc player the gramophone which is an inversion of phonogram.

Edison's cylinders used hill and dale vertically cut grooves, that had very limited use, and was not capable of refinement. That is the phonograph and the name stuck in North America.

Berliner's disc was flat with a horizontally cut groove. He called his machine a gramophone. We all know his invention was capable of huge refinement and is still in use today with a big following. So everything that can trace its lineage to the Berliner disc is a gramophone, not a phonograph.

All the time I lived in England after a broadcast played from disc, the BBC announcer would always say: - "Today's program was on gramophone records."

I just love it when a thread takes on a turn like this, but Pearl may be upset about hijacking his thread. However if there is continued interest, I will expand on terms used to describe record playing equipment. But may be everyone has had enough for one weekend.

Just to wet the appetite, what is this?

And this?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

They call it 'phono' because 5 letters fits better than 6 and because calling it anything else means they would have to change the name that has been used for 60 years.

Is it really a matter of this situation being this simple?

It shows 'Phono (MM) in the specs with 80dB S/N ratio, so it appears that it has a phono preamp built-in.

Yes, I am well aware that the receiver has a preamp built in -- I'm just wondering if the type of preamp will be compatible with the "types" of cartridges the SL-1200 takes...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Pearl,
What cart. are you planning on using. I believe that almost all MM carts. will be compatible with your receiver's "phono" input. I use a Denon DL-110 which is a high output MC cart with my Onkyo receiver's phono input, I also believe all Onkyo receivers that have phono inputs are of the Moving magnet type, so you should have no problem using any MM cart. or high output MC carts..

Thanks blaza...

This is more along the lines of what I wanted to know -- I don't know which cart I will be using yet as I don't even have the 'table in place, but I was just trying to get this info before buying it as it's important to be able to get compatible carts for my Onkyo's phono preamp...

I have heard nothing but awesome things about that Denon 110 you're using from people on this forum alone -- how do you like it?

If you plan on using a low output MC cart. you will need an outboard phono preamp, just a suggestion if you use a MC cart. the Music Hall Pa 1.2 is an amazing preamp, quiet, neutral and transparent for the asking price, I have the Music Hall and I am very satisfied with it. Hope this helps my friend.
Jeff

Indeed, you have helped very much, Jeff! I appreciate this response and explanation; and additionally, this above paragraph is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at through my initial post in this thread...I was worried that based on some kind of cart being used, the phono preamp in my receiver wouldn't be compatible, as I don't want to go down the external preamp route...I bought a stereo receiver and that was one of the stipulations, that it at least carry a good phono preamp onboard...

Why did you need the Music Hall preamp if your receiver came with a phono preamp?

So -- the only way a cart wouldn't be compatible with my 8555 would be if it was a LOW OUTPUT MC variant?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Right, but since the manufacturers all but abandoned turntables since not long after the CD became popular, it's possible that for people like us, who have been involved with this equipment for a long time, time seems a bit compressed and I almost wrote 50 years instead of 60. Also, the word 'phonograph' (1863, when a patent was granted) is actually older than 'gramophone'.

I have to think that there's a whole generation of people who would ask "What is phono?" when they see it the same way people see an icebox. I was in an antique store and a young woman was there with her grandfather. She saw the card on it and said "It still works- what do you do?" and in what I took to be a slightly snide comment, he said "You put ice in it".

Either way, whoever made the decision to use 'phono' undoubtedly grew up seeing that and not 'gramophone'.

That's interesting, what TLS said -- I never knew that about gear from the UK and what they decide as moniker for turntable inputs...

But was "PHONO" actually in reference to "Phonograph" as it pertained to what manufacturers in the 'States used for their gear's displays/input options for turntable hookups?

 

[TLS Guy]

That's interesting, what TLS said -- I never knew that about gear from the UK and what they decide as moniker for turntable inputs...

But was "PHONO" actually in reference to "Phonograph" as it pertained to what manufacturers in the 'States used for their gear's displays/input options for turntable hookups?

Yes, phono is short for phonograph. You will only find the other monikers I mentioned on vintage British gear. Once the Far eastern onslaught got going everything from that quarter is labeled phone. However UK manufacturers almost always label the input disc.

My tube Quad 22 is labeled PU. My Quad 33s, Quad 34 and Quad 44 are labeled disc.

Your receiver should handle all MM, which I would recommend for you. Often
for high output MCs receivers do not have enough gain. For the usual traditional MC cartridges you would need a pre amp.

 

[ahblaza]

Thanks blaza...

This is more along the lines of what I wanted to know -- I don't know which cart I will be using yet as I don't even have the 'table in place, but I was just trying to get this info before buying it as it's important to be able to get compatible carts for my Onkyo's phono preamp...

I have heard nothing but awesome things about that Denon 110 you're using from people on this forum alone -- how do you like it?

The 110 is an incredible cart. for the money, after about 20 hours it really opened up, to my ears it does everything right. Got a great deal from One Call with their price alert option, $109 delivered. send an email for their best price or call, don't pay the price on their site, they will come down.


Indeed, you have helped very much, Jeff! I appreciate this response and explanation; and additionally, this above paragraph is EXACTLY what I was trying to get at through my initial post in this thread...I was worried that based on some kind of cart being used, the phono preamp in my receiver wouldn't be compatible, as I don't want to go down the external preamp route...I bought a stereo receiver and that was one of the stipulations, that it at least carry a good phono preamp onboard...

Why did you need the Music Hall preamp if your receiver came with a phono preamp?

So -- the only way a cart wouldn't be compatible with my 8555 would be if it was a LOW OUTPUT MC variant?

I have two tables set up, thus the need for an additional phono stage. Yes you are right, low output MC would not be compatible with your receiver, by the way Onkyo's onboard phono stages are very good in my opinion, I contacted Onkyo and they said the phono stages are the same in all their receivers regardless of model number, so your stage in your receiver is the same as the top of the line receiver....that's good to know. So get out and buy your table, you will be glad you did. Good talking with you Pearl, stay in touch.
Best regards, Jeff

 

[Pyrrho]

You know what's always bothered me? In this day and age, why are the input labels on processors, preamps and receivers for the turntable section referred to as "PHONO"? I am assuming this is in reference to the "phonograph" from years ago, but why, on modern hi fi gear, are these inputs not referred to as "TURNTABLE" or "TRNTBL" or something along those lines?
...

People who want modern things don't buy turntables. So tradition prevails. If you don't like "Phono", get a CD player, or better yet, get an iPod. Frankly, calling them "turntables" is letting enough modernism into the whole thing, so youngsters like you ought to be satisfied. The player is a phonograph, and it is the platter on which you stick the record and its mechanism that is the turntable portion (the tonearm is not strictly part of the turntable, though people now use the word "turntable" to refer to the whole thing). A turntable is also used to turn trains around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turntable_(rail)

One could probably also call the mechanism that rotates a CD a turntable, which would lead to all sorts of confusion (a turntable is simply a rotating platform). It is best to refer to the thing as a phonograph or gramophone (in reference to the British upstarts who came out with such a thing years after the Americans made phonographs, so if you like newfangled words, call it a "gramophone").

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I have two tables set up, thus the need for an additional phono stage. Yes you are right, low output MC would not be compatible with your receiver, by the way Onkyo's onboard phono stages are very good in my opinion, I contacted Onkyo and they said the phono stages are the same in all their receivers regardless of model number, so your stage in your receiver is the same as the top of the line receiver....that's good to know. So get out and buy your table, you will be glad you did. Good talking with you Pearl, stay in touch.
Best regards, Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you (and to this thread in general); for some reason, I wasn't alerted that there were any more replies (probably because I have several people on my ignore list who responded thus I didn't get a notice for activity from the thread)...

At any rate, I was afraid of what you said about the low output carts not being compatible -- but does that mean that I COULD get the Technics SL-1200, hook it up and the table itself would be incompatible? Or would I have to make sure I bought the right CART?

Thanks for your support and assistance here; looking forward to hearing back from you!

 

[PearlcorderS701]

People who want modern things don't buy turntables. So tradition prevails. If you don't like "Phono", get a CD player, or better yet, get an iPod. Frankly, calling them "turntables" is letting enough modernism into the whole thing, so youngsters like you ought to be satisfied. The player is a phonograph, and it is the platter on which you stick the record and its mechanism that is the turntable portion (the tonearm is not strictly part of the turntable, though people now use the word "turntable" to refer to the whole thing). A turntable is also used to turn trains around:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turntable_(rail)

One could probably also call the mechanism that rotates a CD a turntable, which would lead to all sorts of confusion (a turntable is simply a rotating platform). It is best to refer to the thing as a phonograph or gramophone (in reference to the British upstarts who came out with such a thing years after the Americans made phonographs, so if you like newfangled words, call it a "gramophone").

First of all, you have no idea how old I am -- so the moniker "youngster" is frankly insulting and simply inaccurate here. To add to that, I DO NOT use iPODs or any such nonsense to listen to my music -- AT ALL. So, that wasn't accurate either. Secondly, I DO own a CD player, and that has nothing to do with why I was questioning the "PHONO" label on gear (actually, I own a Marantz CD changer, as evidenced in my signature). Why would I have to buy a CD player just because I don't like the word "Phono" to describe the turntable input? I don't get that...

All I was really asking was why manufacturers continue to use the reference of "PHONO" to describe the turntable inputs on modern day electronics, that's all; it seemed like the "Phonograph" that the reference was undoubtedly based on is honestly prehistoric in sentiment.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey Jeff,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you (and to this thread in general); for some reason, I wasn't alerted that there were any more replies (probably because I have several people on my ignore list who responded thus I didn't get a notice for activity from the thread)...

At any rate, I was afraid of what you said about the low output carts not being compatible -- but does that mean that I COULD get the Technics SL-1200, hook it up and the table itself would be incompatible? Or would I have to make sure I bought the right CART?

Thanks for your support and assistance here; looking forward to hearing back from you!

If you buy an MM cartridge, which is most, you will be fine.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Adjusted.
Weighted.
Simplified.

 

[TLS Guy]

Adjusted.
Weighted.
Simplified.

Are those statements or questions?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Calling all cars...

 

[TLS Guy]

Calling all cars...

For what?

Your question has been answered. The turntable has nothing to do with what input is required. Only the cartridge is electrically connected to the pre amp, receiver or integrated amp. So the specification of the phono input only affects your choice of cartridge.

So for your integrated amplifier, your choice is for a moving magnet cartridge of any type you choose. You can also choose a variable reluctance cartridge, or a high output moving coil. You can not choose a low output moving coil, which is most moving coil cartridges, without buying the required pre amp.

There is nothing else to be said on the matter.