Speaker suggestion for 5.0 system $4000 budget

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amp512

Enthusiast
Any suggestions for roughly $4000 budget for 5.0 speakers for 70% HT/Cable, 30% music, side surrounds have to be flush wall mounted like dipoles/bipoles and speakers have to look sexy not boxes, i like Piano black finish and I prefer buying new either B&M or ID? Room dimensions 24x26x9 open floor plan 24x15 living room with seating/listening distance at 21 ft.

Brands I have auditioned:
Energy RC-70 - Didn't enjoy them at all SQ and looks

Def Tech BP-8080ST - Liked the sound but didn't like look and it would be an issue with placement also not sure how bipolars would sound in my space. In the low end it sounded bit muddy to my ears

B&W 683 - Didn't like looks so didn't pay much attention to SQ.

B&W CM8, CM9, CM5 - Loved the SQ but just good on looks not great as the cabinets are square boxes. Also I felt B&W CM series can be really good for music may not have that punch or impact for HT, I think I prefer Def Tech better than B&Ws for HT.

Monitor Audio RS6 - Loved the sound but just ok on looks. My dealer didn't have the new RX line on display but he said if I am really interested he can take me to client's house, who just purchaed RX8 from him.

Paradigm Studio 20 - Loved the sound and look though they were in Rosenut finish, they are available in Piano black

Paradigm Studio 60/CC590 - Loved the sound and look, and actually auditioned them in my own house for a week.

Atlantic Technology 6200e LR - I likeed the sound but thought they were bit forward on upper frequencies, look wise I prefer curved cabinets but for some reason I liked them on pedestal stands though I thought it may not be worth spending money on pedestal that the dealer sells. Dealer said he purchased brand new AT-1 for himself and I can go to his house to audition but there is no matching center with H-Pas technology

Sonus Faber Auditor M from Cremona collection - Loved the sound and look amazing (though not in piano black) but way out of my budget for 5.0 setup. I just felt like they could be my dream speakers some day, they have matching center and also wall mountable surrounds (obviously dealer didn't hae any of that on display except bookshelf speakers) after hearing the cost of Auditor Ms I didn't even ask dealer the cost of total 5.0 package.


Another big question: My dealer is trying to see expensive electronics Anthem MRX500/700 and showed me the literature of new upcoming Arcam 400 and insists on buying one of those instead of Denon 3311/4311 which I was considering to replace my Denon 890 I got over year ago to pair with my used Polk Lsi9s, are those expensvie receivers necessary?

As far as subwoofer I have my eyes on Rythmik subs, my coworker has DIY rythmik but I am not handy so will be buying most likely F15HPs and have separte budget for subs.
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
Internet Direct companies

I am reading this forum and AVS forum and learning more about new brands some of them I never heard before. I have never heard any ID speakers just learning about them, do they really offer better value or bang for the buck against traditional brands sold at speciality dealers?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you believe in Room Correction (ARC, Audyssey), then you will have to try them out to see for yourself.

If you are like me and couldn't care less about Room Correction or any kind of DSPs or EQs, then all these AVRs will sound the same in Direct or Pure Direct mode, provided the power is enough, which it usually is.

Just to confirm your initial assessment, continue to audition more speakers from PSB, Martin Logan, etc., and compare them to the Paradigm.



http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-Vista-High-Performance-Electrostatic-Aluminum/dp/B001VEJF8M/ref=sr_1_37?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1298911202&sr=1-37
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
I have MultiEQ on my 890 and I use it and have achieved pretty good results since my room is one large open space with hardwood floors with some area rugs though very limited window treatments and have no other room treatments. Those MartinLognas are way out of my $4000 budget for 5.0 system. I actually did see couple MartinLogans on display at Magnolia may be I should give them a try, don't remember the model/line but they were less expensive than the link you suggested. As far as PSBs I have to find a dealer in my area, the primary dealer I visited carries - Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Triad, Sonus Faber, Focal/JM Labs and few other brands.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
out of my $4000 budget for 5.0 system.
Oops, my bad. There is something wrong with me today! I think I"m tired from working over the weekend.:D

But yeah, try out the Martin Logan and PSB just to compare.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You have a substantially large room space to fill and quite a distant listening position. Those are going to be my primary concerns when recommending any speakers to you. Normally, a $4000 budget for 5 speakers could put you into some really upper-tier quality stuff, but only if it were for a much smaller room setting with a much closer listening distance. Something along the lines of the Paradigm Signature S1 package - but those are very small speakers that honestly would not be able to handle your room size and listening distance.

So I'm going to focus on output capabilities along with staying as close as possible to the sort of sound quality that you've said that you like.

What instantly comes to mind would be Axiom's M80v3 towers with the excellent new VP180v3 center and QS8v3 surrounds - axiomaudio.com

While they are not curved cabinets, they are tapered and bevelled. If you upgrade all 5 of the speakers to Axiom's stunning Piano Gloss Black finish, the total after shipping and package discount is just shy of $4050 USD - so it's perfectly in line with your budget.

If you want to keep the price lower, you should also consider the Ebony Vinyl finish - which has just a touch of gloss to a basically matte black finish. Axiom also has a huge selection of other vinyl and real wood finishes if you decide you might like something other than black. Another option would be to get the M80v3 towers and the VP180v3 center in the high gloss piano black, but get the QS8v3 surrounds in a less expensive finish since you aren't going to be looking at the surrounds mounted up on the side walls very much ;)

Output is the name of the game with the large M80v3 towers and very large VP180v3 center. They offer the kind of output capabilities that you are going to need with that room size and seating distance. They are also simply excellent speakers in their own right. The newest v3 tweeter brings greater and more even dispersion, which gives the v3 versions better imaging than versions of the past. While a really great Beryllium tweeter or ribbon can still offer improvements, I've been very impressed by Axiom's newest v3 Titanium tweeters and how they nudge closer to the performance of much more costly tweeter materials and designs.

One thing that you MUST note though - the M80v3 and VP180v3 are 4 Ohm speakers. The design is such that a good mid-to-high level receiver can still drive them (the impedance never dips crazy low), but these are still lower impedance speakers that can absorb a lot of power. They can call for as much as 1200 Watt peaks, so a beefy amp is definitely something you'll want to consider - especially given your room size and seating distance.

Your plan for Rythmik subs is something that I can totally get behind. Rythmik's ported subs will offer the kind of output and extension that you need in that room. I was EXTREMELY impressed when I recently heard the newest SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP subwoofer - so that should also be in consideration for you. But I believe the Rythmik subs can be had for less money - and given how bad we humans are at actually hearing bass, there's very little reason to worry about trying to do "better" than the Rythmiks.

For your receiver/pre-pro and amplification, here is what I would likely do in your situation. I would probably opt for a Denon receiver - I'd personally go for a model that includes the latest Audyssey MultEQ XT32 processing, such as the AVR-4311CI. Unlike some other folks, I totally support the practice of EQ processing and the MultEQ XT32 programme is amazingly powerful.

That 4311 could drive your system on its own if you can't afford separate amps right away. But when you can afford some amps, I'd head on over to Emotiva.com and grab three UPA-1 monoblocks. If you have the cash and want to go nuts, you can step up to the XPA-1 monoblocks, but the UPA-1 monoblocks are an absolute delight and a steal for their asking price!

With the three UPA-1 monoblock amps driving your front M80v3 towers and VP180v3 center, you'll have the sort of output capabilities and clarity of sound that virtually no other setup will match for that kind of price. The Denon 4311CI will have zero problems handling the power requirements of just the two QS8v3 surrounds and you could easily add surround back speakers and/or front height/width speakers with the Denon 4311CI powering those. So you'd have an expandable system as well!

Anywho, those are my recommendations:

AxiomAudio.com

Denon.com

Emotiva.com

SVSound.com

RythmikAudio.com

Best of luck!
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I would take your dealer up on his offer to listen to those Atlantic AT-1 speakers. They look really good from the photos I've seen and the H-Pas technology looks intriguing.
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
FirstReflection: Thanks for lot of good information. Now I have to admit I didn't hear about AxiomAudio ever before but now I see that they get lot of respect on this forum and AVS forum. To be honest I have never seen a speaker in this kind of driver arrangement, have never seen two tweeters and two midrange drivers and on VP180 have never seen center that big and in the driver arrangement like that before. I have been reading couple of Audioholics articles on center channel designs and also went through the threads on Axiom site and it seems like Axiom's centers have really unusual designs. How do they compare to Def Tech and Paradigm?

As far as my room, the actual open space is 24x26x9 now the family/living area is 15x24 and it opens up to kitchen and dining area so I am trying to fill 15x24 area with seating at about 21 ft. but I am really new to the whole HT world so not sure if I have to account for all open space as sound would bleed through that space. Here is a rough floor plan...


It does seem to me in terms of value Axiom being an ID company offers great value and customer service and from their forum it seems like they have lot of happy customers.
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
Floorplan attached. More ID brands

I have attached my floorplan. I am reading more on AxiomAudio, some users on this forum have criticized their center channel design, would that be any concern. I just read this article... http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/center-channel-speaker and briefly browsed through this one... http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs good read indeed

From the first article I calculated my angle of seating and from the center of center channel to the center seating distance estimated 21. ft and then either side I could go no more than 8ft so basically angle is 21 degrees which is within the 30 degree threshold.

Can someone list more ID speaker brands?
 

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zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
The first thing that came to mind for me was NHT. They do piano black well. I have only heard a little bookshelf pair, and my sub. I love/d both.

The neat thing is that you want to go 5.0. Their Four tower has 10's in the cabinet. Just an idea.

Link to the Four, and you can navigate from there.;)
http://www.nhthifi.com/Four_Right?sc=12&category=3773
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're most welcome, amp512 :) Happy to help if I'm able.

Axiom is one of the better established ID brands - they've been around for quite a while now and have gained many fans over the years. The founder, Ian Colquhoun, took part in the famous NRC studies along with Dr. Floyd E. Toole (former head of Harmon and lead designer for most of the JBL speaker line) and Paul S. Barton (of PSB speakers) as well as several other very well-known pioneers in the audio industry. Out of that research, certain "best practices" for speaker design were fairly well agreed upon by the researches - much of it centering around being able to objectively measure speaker performance using an anechoic chamber and a barrage of tests. A lot of very well-known speaker brands were born out of that research, such as Paradigm, Energy/Athena/Mirage (collectively known as API before they were bought out by Klipsch), and of course, Axiom, JBL and PSB. The use of anechoic measurements and aiming for general parameters such as flat on-axis frequency response, gradual and even off-axis roll-off, and phase that does not vary more than 60 degrees have all come to be recognized as the "Canadian" speaker sound - due to the NRC being located in Canada.

Axiom is one of the relatively few speaker manufacturers that has a full-sized anechoic chamber on-site. Several manufacturers pay to use the NRC's anechoic chamber for measurements, but only a handful have their own anechoic chambers - among them, Axiom, JBL and Paradigm. Axiom is also one of the relatively few manufacturers that actually physically makes their own speaker drivers in-house. Most speaker manufacturers purchase their drivers from a separate manufacturer. Axiom and Paradigm are both well-known for making their very own drivers.

Axiom used to be an OEM speaker maker - building speakers for other brands and slapping a different sticker on the front. In the late 90's, they introduced their "Millennia" speaker line and began selling via the internet. Ever since then, they've stuck to selling their own speakers under their own brand-name with ID sales only.

By eliminating all the middle-men and making all of their components in-house, Axiom was able to sell their speakers for a lower price-point than speakers of a similar quality that were sold through more traditional means. This garnered them a lot of favorable early reviews, quite a few awards and lots of loyal fans.

With so much competition these days, Axiom doesn't have quite the head of steam that it once did. Their early popularity on message boards has led to some backlash - which seems to be an all-too common phenomenon on the internet where, as soon as something starts to get popular, it instantly loses its appeal :rolleyes:

Regardless, Axiom's speakers continue to perform and measure very well. And the newest v3 versions are - to my ears anyway - a genuine improvement in audio quality as well as being more attractive visually thanks to the introduction of magnetically held grills that leave perfectly smooth front facias when the grills are off.

While I think that Axiom's speakers still represent a great value, I don't think they're the pinnacle of speaker performance, nor do I like every single speaker they make. I've never been a fan of their center speakers...that is, until the VP180 came along! Both the VP100 and VP150 sound a bit anemic. Both are sealed designs, while all of Axiom's other speakers (save for the QS surrounds) are ported. This leads to the VP100 and VP150 having an audibly different mid-bass.

The VP180 though is basically just a full-sized M80 tower turned on its side. It's a HUGE center speaker and it's ported, just like the towers that it so perfectly matches. The driver layout is very unique and odd. And, to be blunt, you need to be seated an adequate distance away in order to allow all of those drivers to "sum" into a coherent sound source. The huge advantage though is that with both dual tweeters and dual mid-range drivers, output and headroom is increased substantially! Where other high output speakers resort to a horn-loaded tweeter or a simple limiting circuit to avoid breakup and distortion, the use of dual drivers gives the M80 tower and VP180 center twice the power-handling capability and 6 - 10dB of extra output and headroom.

So those comments you are reading about the Axiom center speakers - I agree with a lot of them...I'm no fan of the VP100 or VP150. But the VP180 is excellent! Provided you have the listening distance - which you most certainly do! Most people haven't heard the VP180 for themselves yet. Once they do, I think they'll join me in saying that if you're going to buy an Axiom center, just skip right to the VP180 and forget everything else ;)

In general with center speakers, all you're really looking for is wide and even dispersion (which is much easier said than done) and a perfect sonic match to the front L/R speakers. The easiest way to accomplish this - typically - is to have a tweeter and midrange driver that are oriented vertically (one right above the other) with any bass drivers flanking that tweeter-midrange stack. If you use the so-often-seen woofer-tweeter-woofer design, you have to use a tweeter that can play unusually low so that you avoid comb-filtering and lobbing due to the two bass woofers interacting and cancelling each other out in the critical mid-range frequencies. Some speakers do their best by using a "nested array" where the tweeter sits higher than the two woofers, allowing the woofers to be positioned closer together with the tweeter above and between them. But you still need a fairly low cross-over between the tweeter and the woofers in this design.

The VP180's unusual design works because the critical midrange is placed dead center, coming from the two midrange drivers that work together rather than against eachother. The two tweeters are separated and they do interfere with one another, but our human hearing is far less susceptible to picking up such soundwave interference at these higher frequencies where reflections off of the walls and ceiling are also causing interference, which is actually what our brains use to help us determine room dimensions and a sense of the physical space in which we are sitting. So in its own way, the VP180's driver layout achieves the same goals as the tweeter-midrange vertical stack or the unusually low-playing tweeter. The critical midrange is preserved, but having two tweeters and two midrange drivers allows the VP180 to play much louder than most other consumer-level speakers.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
^^^So that's Axiom. But you wanted to know about some other popular ID brands. I'm sure to miss some, but here are some of the favorites off the top of my head:

Aperion Audio - I haven't heard their newest speakers for myself yet, but the Verus Grand line has an interesting new tweeter design that should allow for very high output with very low distortion. Tom Andry gave them a favorable review and highlighted the new tweeter as their greatest strength. They are certainly good-looking speakers and I believe they're in the right sort of price range for you, so they're certainly worth a look.

Ascend Acoustics - For the very affordable prices, I absolutely love the SEAS tweeters, which perform way above what is typical at this price level. Ascend is working on some new top-of-the-line speakers that use ring-radiator tweeters. I'm not crazy about ring-radiator tweeters because even though they offer incredible resolution and detail and extension that goes way beyond the upper reaches of human hearing, they also tend to beam like crazy, which means that you basically have to have them pointed straight at you and you can't move very much from side to side! That said, it'll be interesting to see what Ascend's new "neo-ring" tweeter will sound like.

Emotiva - they brought in Vance Dickason, who is a legendary speaker designer, and he turned out what are basically professional studio monitor speakers at heretofore unheard of low prices. These use that "nested array" style of driver arrangement that I mentioned. What makes them appealing is that they offer the sorts of adjustment options (tweeter level, mid-bass level, boundary compensation) that you find on professional monitors, but not many consumer speakers. My one complaint with them is that the tweeter has some limitations. At this price, it's to be expected, but they just can't play as loud as speakers of this size might lead one to expect.

EMP Tek - this is the online branch of RBH sound. RBH is another manufacturer that started as an OEM and then became their own brand. The Audioholics crew are big, big fans of RBH speakers and their enthusiasm extends to the EMP Tek online brand. Basically EMP speakers are based on the same design principles as RBH speakers, but use less expensive components and mass produced in Chiina cabinets for lower overall cost. RBH always NAILS the midrange, and the newer Impression Series speakers are darn good-looking too. I've been less than blown away - though not disappointed - by the tweeters. Again, at this price, you can't expect the moon, but I find them to be a little bit less detailed and a little bit less extended than I would personally like.

Salk Sound - oh, Salk. I don't think you'll find more rabid fans than Salk fans. Much of it is well deserved as few companies are willing to customize the way that Salk can. But with such customization and with Salk still being quite a small company, there are sometimes headaches such as long wait times and difficulties if you want to return their speakers. People who want to find top-tier components or somewhat rare components often turn to Salk because they offer access to drivers and custom cabinets that other ID brands simply don't. They sort of cater to the DIY folks and speaker-builders out there, but it can be rather tricky to know what you are getting into if you aren't basically into making speakers yourself.

SVSound - The very well-known ID subwoofer king also sells speakers and they're pretty darn good! These are no-muss, no-fuss speakers that just shoot straight down the middle of the road and do their job with no complaining. The S2-Series is about as plain-looking as speakers can get and the M-Series are WAY bigger and heavier than most people think just by looking at the pictures. They don't seem to get a lot of props of hype, but these are solid, good-performing speakers.

HSU Research - another ID subwoofer king, they too offer speakers. Their horn-loaded speakers might just be what all the Klipsch fans turn to now that Klipsch is owned by the brand-killing Audiovox company.

Magnepan MMG - If you want to try something different, Magnepan offers speakers unlike any other! The Magneplanar design offers a distinctive sound quality that I've never heard any other speaker match. It's that uncanny, indescribable "realness" where certain instruments and sounds just make you go "whoa! What was that?!" because they just sound so completely convincingly real! That said, Maggies need LOTS of open space around them and TONS of amplifier power. They also simply cannot play extremely loud and suffer some dynamic compression for that. The reason is because the mylar and ribbon drivers barely move a fraction of a centimeter back and forth. All of the volume has to come from their surface area, not their excursion. So to get louder, you have to get much, MUCH bigger. Just take a look at their top-line 20.1 speakers to get an idea of what I mean. They're literally larger than a person!

I think I hit most of the big ones :) I'm sure I've missed some, but this post is already WAY too long and that should at least give you some ID brands to check out! :D
 
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zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Wow, that is some extensive knowledge of ID brands!:cool:
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
FirstReflection: Thats a pretty good information about Axiom and their center channel. I think I kind of understand the way you explained the design of two mid-range drivers working together and I think thats where majority of the frequencies for vocals/dialogue (human voice), important for HT experience come from. Now both speakers - M80 and VP180 are ported does that mean I have to keep them at a distance from the front wall? Is placement important for these speakers being a rear ported and I saw owner's pictures of their M80s on Axiom site and majority owners have them quite a bit away from the wall. That might be of concern because M80s are 17" deep I have only about 24" inches because I have a U-shaped baby gate covering my entertainment center, to be honest the gate is their not really to protect my speakers and receiver and TV from my kids but I have polk LSI9 on a sand filled stands I don't want them to fall on my 2-year old and I think same goes for tower speakers or may be not... To get most out of these speakers how far out do I have to place them?

I briefly looked at Frequency and impedance graphs and it is pretty impressive, ruler flat, though impedance goes to 3ohms at times so you do need beefy amp to drive these guys.

I think I like what I am SEEING in terms of performance and would love to listen. I think I should call them and find out if I order custom finish - piano black, would their 30-day money back guarantee still work if I didn't like them. One thing I have learned by reading reviews and forums that they are pretty comparable in SQ so if any reason I am not happy (and my wife), it would be asthetics first due to the depth of these speakers and then sound quality.
 
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amp512

Enthusiast
FirstReflection: You seem to know and listened to lot of brands and know exaclty type of drivers, materials and designs used by different brands. Lot of good info. I really want to thank you for your time and I really enjoy reading your in-depth reviews on these brands. I think I am going to start researching all the ID brands one at a time just like I researched Axiom. I pretty much briefly of course looked at every ID brand you posted and I think I am going to focus my research with AxiomAudio, AperionAudio and Ascend Acoustics only for now because after reading your brief description on these ID brands I think only these three brands can cater my needs for now... What would really be interesting is finding a sound as close as to Paradigm Studio's clarity in mid and higher frequncies and Def Tech's punch in low frequncies with looks of Paradigm or Aperion.

Edit:
Do ID brands offer better value compared to more traditional brands sold at specialty dealers? For example, Aperion 5.0 (Verus Grand Towers, Center, Verus Grand Bookshelf) costs $3100 vs Paradigm Studio 60, CC-590 and ADP-590 in Piano black I was told the MSRP is $5100 though dealer offers pretty good discount on MSRP (plus sales tax of course) still not even close to $3100 though I lke ADP-590 and the way they can be wall mounted, I don't like mounting bookshelf speakers and they don't have dipole/bipole with Aperion Verus line. Does Paradigm really sound $2000 (when compared to MSRP) better than Aperion and $1000 better than Axiom even after customizing in Piano-Black or am I paying for the my local dealers rent, payroll, utilities, etc...?
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're welcome - and thanks for the kind words! :)

Ported speakers do tend to sound best when they are out, away from walls. This has more to do with room acoustics than it does with the actual speakers themselves though. Axiom themselves say that the M80 and VP180 speakers REQUIRE only 2 inches of space behind them - that is to avoid actual noise from the air rushing out of the ports. But most people will find that a good 2-3 feet is preferable.

Now, before that cause you to worry, here's what's going on (in a very rough and unscientific sense :p ). Lower frequencies audibly interact with the room. The longer wavelengths reflect off of the walls and interfere with the direct soundwaves that are coming out of the speaker as well as the other reflected soundwaves. Sometimes, two peaks meet up and create a big spike, sometimes one peak and one null will meet and sort of "balance" eachother out. And sometimes, two nulls will meet and create a big "suckout" at that particular frequency. The end result is that - at your listening seat - you get these big dips and peaks in the frequency response. The speaker itself might be putting out a nice, flat frequency response, but due to the reflected soundwaves off of the walls, the direct sound of the speaker and the reflected sound off of the walls combine to create a frequency response that is all bumpy and jagged.

Soundwaves get weaker and weaker over distance, so conversely, when you have speakers closer to a wall, you get stronger reflections.

So the worry with ported speakers is that - first off - they tend to play lower frequencies more strongly than similarly sized sealed speakers; and secondly, soundwaves come out of that port - so with ports on the back, you have some sound coming directly out the back and immediately refelcting off of the wall that's behind the speaker.

So, long story short, speakers that have rear ports and can play quite low - like the M80 and VP180 - they tend to sound better the further you move them away from the walls. That way, you get weaker reflections and fewer and less extreme interactions between the direct sound and the reflected sound.

Here's the good news though - all that really matters are the strength of those reflections. So if there is some other way of cutting down the reflected sound, using a ported speaker isn't really any different than a sealed speaker. So what you can do is to simply put absorptive material on the walls behind and to the side of the speaker. What you want is something that will absorb those lower and mid-bass frequencies so that they do not bounce off of the walls and cause interference. ie. a bass trap!

So this is taking us into some new, but very important territory - acoustic treatments. Many, many people sort of put off treating their room. They look to the speakers, the amps, the players, maybe even the cables in order to try and glean improvements. Let me tell you, the single greatest thing you can EVER do for audio quality is to acoustically treat your room! Audio reproduction is a system. And, as wtih any system, the hope is to create something that is more than just the sum of its parts. The room is a CRITICAL part of that system. Take the exact same speakers, amps and player from one room to another and they are not going to sound the same!

Anywho, if you are going to be placing speakers such as the M80 and VP180 fairly close to any walls, there is nothing "dangerous" or "wrong" with that. You simply need to be aware that you will be getting stronger reflections and act accordingly :)

I'm a big, big fan of GIK Acoustics - gikacoustics.com . They make simple, effective, good-looking acoustic treatments at extremely affordable prices. Literally, you would barely save any money if you were to buy the materials and make your own acoustic panels! GIK's products really do cost about as little as possible - I honestly sometimes wonder how they manage to make any profit at all!

What I would recommend is that you have one of their 244 bass trap panels directly behind each of your front speakers. It's most important to have the panel covering the wall at ear height, so even though there may be a port at the bottom of the speaker, do not worry about that - have the bass trap panel up 2-3 feet off the ground - this looks the most aesthetically pleasing as well ;)

Other than that, the "standard" placement of acoustic treatments would still apply. The idea with home theater sound is to have very direct, clear sound from the front, but diffuse sound at the back. The sound from the front is meant to "wash over" you and then "disappear" behind you. So the way you would normally deploy acoustic treatments is as such:

1) Place bass traps in all the vertical corners of your room. You can go floor to ceiling, but the most important locations to bass trap are the wall-wall-ceiling corners...worry less about treatments down low.

2) Put absorptive panels and/or bass trap panels on your front wall (the "TV wall") behind your front speakers. This prevents the strong reflections that muddy the sound coming from the front.

3) *Very important - place absorptive panels on the side walls and ceiling at the first reflection points. The first reflection points can be easily found by sitting in your primary seat and having a second person hold a handheld mirror along the side wall. Wherever you can see the speaker in the mirror is a reflection point. The first reflection point is the area on the side wall and ceiling where you can see the speaker in the mirror that is closest to the speaker (again, stronger reflections at shorter distances).

4) Place absorption directly behind your seating location. This stops the sound that is coming from the front speakers from bouncing off of the wall behind you. Remember, the sound is meant to "wash over you" and then "disappear". Sound reflecting off of the wall behind you is the #1 cause of dialogue being hard to understand. I saw that in your diagram, you couch is very close to the back wall. If possible, try to bring that couch forward so that there is more space behind your head. Even just 1 or 2 feet can really help! And with such close placement of the couch to the back wall, it is especially important to put some absorption directly behind you. I think you will be surprised at how big a difference it makes in your ability to clearly hear dialogue.

5) Treat the rest of the back half of your room (side walls, ceiling, back wall) with diffusors. Diffusors "scatter" sound. So instead of direct reflections or the sound disappearing into absorption, you still get all of the sound energy, but in a more random, scattered and diffuse way. Your surround speakers are meant to create ambience and a sense of envelopment. They can best accomplish this if the rear half of the room aids in scattering and "spreading out" that sound.

That's it! That's all there is to room treatments (well, not ALL, but those are the basics that will serve almost any listener very well ;) ).

What's fantastic about GIK is that they not only offer very effective, very affordable products, but they also offer some really decor-friendly options if your significant other isn't a fan of solid colors on the walls. GIK offers their ArtPanels, which can literally take the place of paintings or posters on your wall while giving you SO much acoustic benefit. GIK also has very nice-looking pillars and small tables that act as bass traps. If you don't want a Tri-Trap or 244 panel straddling the corners of your room, try putting a Pillar Bass Trap in each corner with a nice plant or vase or other decoration on top. Instant bass trap PLUS great decoration!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
OK - on to your other questions! :p

The M80 and VP180 certainly benefit from having powerful amplification behind them. Like I mentioned before, I would quickly opt for 3 Emotiva UPA-1 monoblock amps. That said, they do not require super-powerful amps to simply play. They adhere to the THX spec, which calls for no dips in impedance lower than 3.2 ohms. Any properly built receiver or amp will be able to drive them. The Denon 4311CI that I recommended can certainly make them play. But some "beefy" amplification would definitely be a benefit. You will gain tremendous headroom and be able to really allow the M80 and VP180 to "sing" without distortion or compression. So, like I said, if the budget doesn't allow for separate amps right away, feel confident in using just your Denon receiver for the time being. But when the budget allows, separate amps WILL benefit your system.

As far as I know, Axiom's policy on returns for the upgraded finishes is that they will accept a return, but they will only give you back the price of a standard finish. The upgrade cost for the piano gloss finish would be lost to you :(

That's a pretty significant cost in this case, so I have a couple of ideas:

1) Axiom has a pretty fantastic network of loyal fans. If you go on the Axiom message boards, you can very often find owners who are willing to have you over to their homes so that you can see and hear Axiom speakers for yourself. I know that it can feel kind of weird to do something like this, but it can also be a ton of fun as almost all of the people who are willing to do this are big, big home theater and audio fans and they're happy to meet other enthusiasts and "talk shop" ;)

2) You could order a much smaller pair of bookshelf speakers in a standard finish as a "trial". You could then use those speakers in a second room, or you could return them to Axiom for quite a small return shipping cost and get a full purchase-price refund, or you could use them as your surround back speakers in a 7.1 setup or as front height/width speakers in a Dolby Pro Logic IIz or Audyssey DSX setup.

There is almost always a good use for a great pair of small bookshelf speakers :) If you think you might use them on their own in a second room, I'd recommend the M3v3 - which have a nice, full sound to them. The smallest M2v3 speakers are actually the best sonic match to all of the larger towers - they are essentially ruler-flat, just without the bass extension. If you think you might use the small bookshelf speakers as surround back speakers or height/width speakers, I'd recommend the M2v3.

Obviously, neither the M3 or M2 will sound exactly like the M80. But they can offer you a pretty good idea of the "Axiom sound" as it were. If you decide to really just use them as a trial, the return shipping cost is pretty small and you'd get a full refund from Axiom so long as you stick with the basic, stock finish (which honestly looks very nice all on its own).

If you really liked the Paradigm Reference Studio sound and wouldn't mind even a bit more punch in the lower midrange and mid-bass, I think you're really going to like the Axiom v3 sound. Like I said, the newest v3 Axiom tweeter has come closer to the higher-end, higher-priced tweeters that Paradigm uses in its Reference speakers. Both companies are chasing similar design and performance goals. Both are known for that "Canadian sound". The mid-bass extension, transient response and "slam" are really great on the M80 and especially the VP180 speakers. I actually prefer them in this respect to Paradigm's plastic woofers. So sonically, I think the Axiom speakers would be right up your alley. But do try to find an owner in your area or try the small bookshelf "trial" idea so you can hear for yourself.

ID brands do tend to offer higher value. That is essentially their business model and the way in which they compete with the larger, traditionally distributed companies. If they were sold in stores through a dealer network, you could easily expect prices on ID brand products to increase 50%. The Axiom M80/VP180/QS8 5-speaker package with the upgraded piano gloss black finish would realistically sell in a store for around $6000, not the $4000-ish price that you get by purchasing ID. So take pretty much any ID-only brand and multiply their prices by 1.5 to get a rough idea of what you'd pay for them in a store. The margin of difference can be even greater with something like subwoofers. The Rythmik FV15HP, for example, would likely sell for about $2500 in a store, essentially double the price that they sell it for online.

This is why the ID brands have garnered such praise and attention from enthusiasts! Most physical stores have to take one of two approaches - either sell for the lowest price possible - in which case you get the selection that you see at Best Buy, which is pretty sad these days. Or they have to go "boutique" high-end and sell brands that ONLY sell through specialized retailers. Paradigm got a lot of praise because they kept their prices at least somewhat reasonable. But even they are starting to nudge towards the ID market with their new "Paradigm Shift" branch.

Almost every enthusiast falls somewhere in the middle. We want better and are willing to pay more than what we can find in a big box store, but we can't afford the "boutique" speakers, which also have high margin due to the fact that so relatively few units are sold! The ID brands offer something a lot closer to "boutique" performance, but at middle-ground prices. That "middle-ground" has all but disappeared at physical stores. They'd either have to sell lower quality speakers at higher margin - which doesn't fly anymore (save for Bose, which still manages to sell $8 speakers for $2000 thanks to ridiculous amounts of marketing and a largely uneducated buying public :( ), or they'd have to take a huge hit on profits by selling high quality speakers for next to no mark up! The ID brands have sort of eliminated the "middle-ground" price range at retail, which is a bit sad. But, at the same time, we NEVER would have gotten this quality at these prices without ID brands. So we, as consumers, just sort of have to live with the fact that if we want better than Best Buy, but less expensive than a high-end specialty shop, we pretty much have to go online. Some of the big retail brands like Boston Acoustics, Def Tech and Paradigm (just to name a few) are still fighting in that "middle-ground" and putting out some very impressive speakers at reasonable prices. But their hand has basically been forced by the ID competition and it's not unusual at all to see these established retail brands start to move towards direct sales and online sales themselves.
 
T

tjf120

Audioholic Intern
I own the Aperion Verus L/C/R...I've been very happy with them. They replaced a Mirage setup that I bought off of Vanns.

My 2nd setup is Zu audio, I really enjoy them. Different design for their speakers. You could buy an Omen surround package for that $$$. You may want to google a few reviews of their speakers.
 
K

Khemist1

Enthusiast
Just thought I'd throw out another recommendation for Aperion. I previously owned an Axiom setup (M3s and VP150) and while nice and flat, it just wasn't that much "fun" to listen to, especially after I moved and my living room increased in size.

I am loving the new Verus line from Aperion. Coupled with an Onkyo 3008 with the MultiEq XT32, I'm in heaven. The AVR has done a fantastic job tailoring the soundfield for my room (which, like yours, is hardwoods, a few area rugs, and sparsely treated windows). I'm only about 10 feet away from the center channel however.

Aperion has one of the best return/ audition policies in the biz. You've got thirty days to decide, they pay shipping both ways.

I have a feeling they don't see too many returns.

You will need some serious subwoofage to get real theater-like output in that big ol' room of yours. I have a sealed 15 inch Titanic kit from PartsExpress. The "1000W" plate amp barely gets the job done with all the openings to the living room (open concept does have it's drawbacks).

Take care, have fun.
 
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