Energy RC-50's vs. Infinity Primus P363's

[billy p]

Keep in mind that the RC-70 in that review is the REFERENCE series, which is $2,000/pr. I don't think it is the same as the cheaper RC-70??


And price on that RC-50 says "1690 Euro/pr", which can't be the same as the cheaper priced RC-50??

They are the same speaker line as in that review. The newer CR's MUST not be confused with the RC series just because of the lower discontinued prices. AAMOF the RC's are now being renamed and sold with the Veritas lablel...fwiw.



Msrp of Rc's in Canada:

2499.00 70's
1899.00 50's
1299.00 30's
750.00 10's
750.00 LCR

In Canada they were marketed to compete with Paradigm Studio...love them or hate them.

Just curious.

Does anyone know what the RC-50 (or any of the RC's) actually sold for when they were in mainstream production?

I mean, MSRP of the Infinity P363 is $760/Pr, but that is not a realistic purchase price!

 

[Melee]

It's been a long, hard road and I fear that I am not even close to being finished. lol

With every different option or decision I make, it opens up an entirely new world of choices.

Yes, the Energy RC's were originally EXPENSIVE audiophile speakers. That is why I have a hard time imagining the Infinity's keeping pace with them when it's $1600 Towers vs. $300 Towers. I'm still waiting to hear the comparison from Peng, though. ^_^

Basically, there are still a lot of options out there that I haven't even explored, yet. lol If I get a Sub, then the Towers become less necessary. I could get two nice bookshelves and a nice sub or two, and the sub(s) would take care of the lows that the towers would normally be needed for.

However, with my budget, I don't think I could find bookshelves remotely close to the P363's @ a little over $150 each.

If I go without a sub, I could get a cheaper Receiver for now and upgrade it when I get a Sub to save money.

If I go with a Sub, I could get either a $400 Sub or 2x $200 Subs and keep my current receiver if need be. It has MultEQ (even though I don't like it overall) so it will handle the Sub as well. I would want a sealed sub most likely so that it is as musical as possible and I can listen to my music in 2.1 stereo and get my Center and Surrounds when I can afford to do so.

What do you guys think? I mean, are there any better options than these two or does this pretty much cover it? lol

Just curious.

Does anyone know what the RC-50 (or any of the RC's) actually sold for when they were in mainstream production?

I mean, MSRP of the Infinity P363 is $760/Pr, but that is not a realistic purchase price!

I would say that is pretty accurate. If I'm not mistaken, it was like $2,000/Pair for the RC-70's, $1,600 for the RC-50's, and $1,200 for the RC-30's. They were quite expensive. It might have been give or take a few hundred, but the Infinity's are pretty close as well. Most places have them for $250-$300 per speaker which isn't TOO far off their MSRP.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What do you guys think? I mean, are there any better options than these two or does this pretty much cover it? lol

Do you need 5.1 or 5.0?

What about just going with 2.0?

I don't think it's a good idea to use a subwoofer in an apartment.

 

[Melee]

Do you need 5.1 or 5.0?

What about just going with 2.0?

I don't think it's a good idea to use a subwoofer in an apartment.

See, the opinions on Subs are completely 50/50. lol Half the people warn not to while the other half are like "NOOOOO! YOU MUST HAVE SUB!" lol I don't know which way to go.

I NEED 2.0 but I WANT an easy upgrade to 5.0. The RC's are the only speakers in the $300-$500/Pair Price Range that I have found that really intrigue me besides the Infinity's. The rest don't seem to start to get excellent reviews until around $800/Pair or more.

So, with the RC-50's (if I can even still get them for $270 each) I would have a few hundred left over to get an RC-LCR or to just save and use toward building a new computer.

With the Infinity's, I would still have around $450 left over which I could use to buy the PC351 + PC153's and have around $200-$250 left over, Buy a nice Sub if you guys think it would be worth it, or just use that on my computer and call it a day.

The options are getting slimmer but each one now has much larger ramifications than they did before. lol

 

[Alex2507]

I don't think it's a good idea to use a subwoofer in an apartment.

My final answer.
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[Melee]

My final answer.
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Bashing my head into the wall would feel quite nice at this point....lol This stuff is frustrating.

The Receiver is annoying me more than anything. Everything that I WANT is like $100 above my price range. However, I don't really want to spend $400-$500 on the receiver. lol I would much rather pay $250-$300 for one and call it a day.

As for the Sub, if I had my own house and was able to play **** as loud as I wanted to, it would be a NO BRAINER to get the Fronts and Sub. However, with my size limitations and the fact that an @sshole lives above me (lol) it definitely complicates things.

 

[Melee]

Here is another confusing subject that I ran across. If I do get a $400 Sub, I am strongly considering the Emotiva Ultra 12.

However, the Sub does not have any speaker level connections (I believe that's what they're called?) where you can hook the Sub up to the Receiver as you would with any other Speaker.

With that limitation, would MultEQ even be able to EQ the Sub with the rest of the system? I'm not sure how that works, but I figured that it would be necessary to have all speakers hooked up the same way to calibrate them together.

How does that Sub even connect? lol I bought an RCA Cable when I first started looking into everything a month or so ago but I don't see a place for it. It looks like there are only "balanced and unbalanced" connections which I have never seen before.

 

[Melee]

Yamaha AVR for $329:

I can actually get the RX-V667 New for $413 Shipped and the RX-A800 (which I believe is their most expensive models) for $450 Shipped. I'm just not sure if I want a Yamaha. There isn't really much that they do better than the other options.

I have no clue of what to do here. lol I don't know if it's better to buy a new receiver or to go for a model that is 1-2 years old for much cheaper while losing a few of the newer "cool" options. I know people find a lot of great deals on amazing receivers going that route but I don't know enough about them to know which of the older models are great and which are trash.

 

[KEW]

The Receiver is annoying me more than anything. Everything that I WANT is like $100 above my price range. However, I don't really want to spend $400-$500 on the receiver. lol I would much rather pay $250-$300 for one and call it a day.

Are you looking at Accessories4less or "The Harmon Store" on ebay?
If i was buying a receiver at a budget price, it would be from one of those two, unless newegg happened to have a killer deal on an older model Yamaha.
http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php
http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers-/_i.html?_fsub=10225972&_sid=26519532&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007055 50001415&IsNodeId=1&name=Yamaha

 

[Melee]

Are you looking at Accessories4less or "The Harmon Store" on ebay?
If i was buying a receiver at a budget price, it would be from one of those two, unless newegg happened to have a killer deal on an older model Yamaha.
http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php
http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers-/_i.html?_fsub=10225972&_sid=26519532&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007055 50001415&IsNodeId=1&name=Yamaha

NewEgg doesn't have anything.

Harman store doens't have anything.

Accessories4less I have seen a thing or two.

Marantz 5004 for $349.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-90w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Onkyo 707 for $399.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR707/Onkyo/TX-SR707-Thx-Select2-Plus-100-watts-channel-7.2-Receiver/1.html

That's about all I'm seeing for $400 or less. lol

 

[KEW]

I can actually get the RX-V667 New for $413 Shipped and the RX-A800 (which I believe is their most expensive models) for $450 Shipped. I'm just not sure if I want a Yamaha. There isn't really much that they do better than the other options.

What about this?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115240

It is $430 shipped, but you get $125 Gift Card at Newegg (any student can make decent use of that!) which makes the price effectively $305.
You don't need the extra power of a 667 driving either of those speakers, and I didn't notice any major differences in features in a quick scan.

This might be better since you are not paying for 7.1 amp:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115239

And here is teh 567 refurb for $250 with no gift card involvement if that is a problem for you:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115310

FYI - video review of Yamaha RX-V467.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v467-video

 

[Melee]

Well, I bought my Factory Refurb Denon AVR-791 for $300 Shipped so it would have to be a better receiver to justify the purchase. I'm not sure how much I can sell it for, but I'm figuring at least $325-$350 w/ free shipping when I look at the prices for them on Ebay and such.

The main question is will the 2011 models of each company be coming out anytime soon to drive down the prices of current models? I don't want to be too hasty and miss on out on a good deal.

The current AVR's that really interest me are: (These are all new.)

Pioneer VSX-1120-K for $499 Shipped
(Excellent Video Processing, Pre-Outs, THX Certification, etc.)

Marantz 5005 for $499 Shipped
(Favorite Receiver Aesthetically, MultEQ, Reported excellent musicality)

Harman Kardon 2600 for $419 Shipped
(Dolby Volume that is supposed to sound much better than Audyssey and other options.)

Brands that I left out:

Denon - I really don't like my 791 much at all. It's user interface any menu's are primitive and horrible to use. It's not enjoyable at all. I can get the slightly older 2310 and 890 for around $350-$375, but I'm not sure if I will like them any better than this one.

Onkyo - They seem to have older chips which result in bad video processing and they reportedly run EXTREMELY hot. They do have MultEQ as well, but I can't justify buying one of the other options or the Denon I already have.

Yamaha - I'm not sure of why but something just tells me to stray away from them for a Receiver. lol I'm sure they're not bad, but they really have nothing to offer that I can't find elsewhere with better additional options or a cheaper price. The only notable uniques compared to the rest is the Pre-Outs and 7.2 ability that it has, both of which I really have no use for. A lot of people don't like YPAO compared to Audyssey and MCACC, also.

Did I leave anything out or am I judging these too harshly?

I would LOVE to get by as cheaply as possible on this. lol If I could find a used or refurb for $200-$250, that would be excellent. However, it would be tough to justify them over my $300 Denon 791 since it does have MultEQ and such.

***EDIT*** Nevermind on the HK 2600....JR raised the price back up to $499.

 

[KEW]

I'm not very up to speed on receivers - they just don't really matter that much to the sound and I don't do HT at present.
However, I look at your situation and think you might be best advised to stick with your Denon for now. It sounds like you got a killer deal on it, and it is not yet pitifully obsolete.
It seems like you are wanting to replace a low-mid end receiver with a low-mid end receiver and expecting substantial improvements. In reality you are most likely to find trade-offs - if you do correct the short comings of your current Denon.
My advice is to hold off on the receiver. Your Denon is fine for audio quality. Get the speakers and live with them for a few weeks. Then weigh the benefits of adding a sub or alternate receiver.
The speakers will change your sound entirely. Your receiver will only change the controls. Sound EQ is the biggest concern and you are smart to be focusing on that, but you may find that the new speakers are game changers such that you are happy with them in "pure direct" mode.
Have you considered getting a good remote control to improve interface? I'm pretty sure you can do some pretty slick things with them, but, again, I am not involved (since not HT and music is simple enough without it).
I'm not sure any receivers have a decent RC in your price range.
That is my 2 cents. Good luck with it!

 

[Melee]

I'm not very up to speed on receivers - they just don't really matter that much to the sound and I don't do HT at present.
However, I look at your situation and think you might be best advised to stick with your Denon for now. It sounds like you got a killer deal on it, and it is not yet pitifully obsolete.
It seems like you are wanting to replace a low-mid end receiver with a low-mid end receiver and expecting substantial improvements. In reality you are most likely to find trade-offs - if you do correct the short comings of your current Denon.
My advice is to hold off on the receiver. Your Denon is fine for audio quality. Get the speakers and live with them for a few weeks. Then weigh the benefits of adding a sub or alternate receiver.
The speakers will change your sound entirely. Your receiver will only change the controls. Sound EQ is the biggest concern and you are smart to be focusing on that, but you may find that the new speakers are game changers such that you are happy with them in "pure direct" mode.
Have you considered getting a good remote control to improve interface? I'm pretty sure you can do some pretty slick things with them, but, again, I am not involved (since not HT and music is simple enough without it).
I'm not sure any receivers have a decent RC in your price range.
That is my 2 cents. Good luck with it!

Originally, this is what I assumed as well was that Receivers weren't a big deal. However, the more I read up on them, the more it seems they are a big deal. The different listening/surround modes and eq's can make a vast difference in the overall sound from what I can tell. Granted, most of the decent-excellent receivers have some type of comparable feature(s) in this category, but I'm not sure which is the best.

I did get a great deal on my 791, but I hate it. lol It's just a pain to use. Everything is so slow and primitive. Everything is a bland black screen with white text like it used to be in the 80's and 90's. lol It's not like it's unbearable, but it's definitely not my taste.

My main fear is that if I hold on to the Denon 791, that I won't be able to sell it for much once the new receivers release. For example, last years' 790's are around $250 right now so I'm afraid this one will drop in value once this year's models release.

Would buying a $500 receiver make a large difference, in your guys' opinion? I mean, I could buy the P363's, sell my Denon, buy a Pioneer VSX-1120-K, and buy the PC351 and P163's when I can. I'm just not sure if it's worth it, though. The 1120-K is the next rung up on the receiver ladder along with the Denon 2311/891, Marantz 5005, HK 2600, etc. so it will definitely have a lot more power and features than the Denon I have. I just don't know if it's going to make a positive difference in sound (more power + THX Certification) or not even be noticeable.

So, basically my options are like:

P363's x2
PC351
P163's x2
Denon AVR-791

P363's x2
Emotiva Ultra 12
Denon AVR-791

P363's x2
PC351
Pioneer VSX-1120-K

What's the best way to go? lol

 

[Melee]

I need some help deciding once and for all on whether or not to get a Sub so I'm going to explain everything a bit more in depth to hopefully aid you guys in giving me a solid answer. I have googled the heck out of this by the way and it's nothing but mixed opinions of "don't have a sub in an apartment" and "it sucks without a Sub so get one and just watch the volume".

Basically, for the next 2-3 years I will still be in school and living in apartments or in houses that are in close proximity to others. It won't be a big deal if I have a separate house, but while I'm in apartments it definitely worries me. Our lease on this place doesn't run out until August so that is another 6 months that I will be here at least. I live in a duplex that is a single building (the size of a regular house) and the only units are my apartment on the ground floor and the neighbors in the apartment above us. These walls are far from thick. I can hear their footsteps everytime they walk around plain as day and can even hear their bed squeak when they lay down over my bedroom. It looks essentially like the walls are just simple plaster and not very insulated or sound proofed. Now, in opposition to that notion, I cannot hear anything else from them. I never hear televisions, talking, laughing, anything of that nature. So, it seems that it's definitely not silent between our apartments, but it's nothing outrageous to where they are going to hear every sound I make, especially where they are above us. The only encounter I have had with them is when I bought a set of Klipsch Promedia 2.1 Speakers for my computer. I had the sub set against the wall (middle of the wall away from corners) and turned up to the "10 o'clock position" as was marked on the dial and recommended in the manual. I barely had the music turned above speaking level and the guy came down and jumped onto me because he said he couldn't hear his tv. Now, the only thing I can figure out that it could have been is the Sub. Even when I turned it down to minimum volume, it still seemed to cause problems. What would happen is if I sat down in front of the computer, the volume was EXTREMELY reasonable and I couldn't hear the Sub booming at all. However, if I stood up and leaned toward the wall the sub was set against, I could hear it vibrating and booming through that entire wall. That is the main reason I am scared.

Now, I've read there are many ways around this. For example, to set it near listening position away from walls so minimum volume is satisfactory, to set it against a wall that isn't shared (such as my closet wall beside my recliner), and to use "night mode" or whatever the receiver has when it gets late. The problem is it was around 2-3pm in the afternoon when the guy came down to complain and it was not loud at all. Now, when I had my Polk Monitor System, I had 2x Monitor 70's, 2x Monitor 40's, and a CS2 that I played at medium volume most of the time that had much more bass than the weak Klipsch sub and never had a complaint. I would say it is the lower frequencies but I seriously doubt that the tiny 100w Sub is going anywhere near 30hz or less and I believe the Monitor 70's are rated down to something like 38-40hz.

In conclusion, that makes me think as long as it is off of the wall and used properly that it wouldn't be a huge issue. However, if I have to worry constantly about pissing him off, keep it turned low the entire time, and possibly have to place it in the room where it won't have great acoustics, then IS IT WORTH IT? lol Would it make a difference large enough to make it worth sacrificing my 5.0 System to have a 2.1 System? Am I going to have to sit ready with remote in hand any time I watch a movie to turn the volume up and down constantly? Would an Isolation Pad make a difference with a Sealed Sub or Ported Sub for my problems? (Even though they cost like $60 and I can't afford one! lol)


With the Infinity System I have planned (as stated in the post above), I have these options:


Receiver:

1) Stick with my Denon AVR-791
2) Sell it and buy a Pioneer VSX-1020-K for the same price
3) Sell it and invest $150-$200 more into the Receiver and purchase something like the Pioneer VSX-1120-K


Fronts:

Infinity P363's (This is the only category where my mind is 100% made up. lol)


Center:

1) Infinity PC351
2) Infinity PC251

I have seen several people say that they like the PC251 better? I'm not sure why that would be since the PC351 is the next step up and should definitely be superior. I can get them both for the SAME PRICE so it is not an issue.


Surrounds:

1) Infinity P163's
2) Infinity P153's

There will be an ~ $60 difference between a pair of these from the best prices I have found. I've seen $140 Shipped for a pair of P153's and $200 Shipped for P163's.

My question is which will make better surrounds? Obviously, the P163's will be larger and more powerful. However, I know that doesn't always dictate which is the better surround.


Sub:

1) No Sub
2) Emotiva Ultra 12
3) Emotiva Ultra 10
4) I'm pretty sure Ported Subs would be a horrible idea in here? I'll leave it here as an option just in case, though. lol


I'm SOOOO Sorry for writing a novel but hopefully this will explain EVERYTHING to you guys so you can help me make a decision. Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, let the final rounds begin! LOL.

1) keep your old Denon receiver - Denon is very respectible.

2) get the Infinity P363 and stick with a 2.0 for both movies and music - the P363 is very respectible.

I have my P362 in the family room in 2.0 with a Denon AVR-391 (size ~ 18' x 20'). The movie dialogue is very clear to me in Direct mode, and the bass is very sufficient to me as well.

Once you have graduated from college and get a permanent job and buy a house, then we can talk about how to spend your money.

That is my final take on this Part One.

Depending on how much money you have then, we will go on to Part Two in a few years.

 

[KEW]

Is there something pushing you to buy a sub right now?

I say try the speakers alone before you worry about a sub.

How big is the driver in the Promedia set-up? I would bet the Infinities have about the same level of bass (if not more).

If you old sub was actually against the wall that may have been the real problem. If you do get a sub, you should budget another $50 for a Auralex SubDude or Gamma. However, a real sub is going to put out so much more LF energy than your old PC speakers that I don't think you are going to be comfortable using it in your situation!

So I say:
1) Stick with your current receiver - it has the EQ you want and isn't that old.
2) Buy the full complement of 5.0 speakers.
3) Skip the sub (at least until you decide the speakers are lacking and you could add more bass without offending the neighbors).
4) Check out the abilities of an advanced remote control (I think they go for about $150) and see if that doesn't help (or at least distract you from) the shortcomings of your receiver's interface.

 

[Melee]

Here is a link to the Promedia's so you can see the Sub. It's actually just a 50w RMS Sub, too. lol

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/promedia-2-1-specifications/

The only thing making me considering getting a Sub right now is that a lot of people insinuate that without a Sub, any surround system is going to be weak and sound disappointing. I mean, with the budget I could get a $400 Sub which would be nice, but if it's always at minimum volume and it's going to cause problems with the neighbors, then i would rather stray away from it until I move. My Polk Monitor's were surprisingly sufficient on bass so I'm hoping the Infinity's will be, also.

For the Receiver, I would really like to get rid of it. lol It's only going to further decrease in value and make me hate it more as time goes on. Would I actually be giving anything up if I went with a Pioneer, instead? Especially without the need for MultEQ since I won't have a Sub, it seems like the Pioneer would be a considerable step up in features and convenience for the same price.

My final question is which Center and Surrounds do I get?
(We're coming down the home stretch...hang in there with me guys! haha)

PC351 vs PC251

P163's vs P153's

@ Acu, is there any particular reason why you recommend staying 2.0 and skipping the 5.0? I mean, I have room in my budget for the other 3 speakers if I don't get a Sub. Are they not good or something?

Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...but if it's always at minimum volume and it's going to cause problems with the neighbors, then i would rather stray away from it until I move. My Polk Monitor's were surprisingly sufficient on bass so I'm hoping the Infinity's will be, also.

@ Acu, is there any particular reason why you recommend staying 2.0 and skipping the 5.0? I mean, I have room in my budget for the other 3 speakers if I don't get a Sub. Are they not good or something?

Serisouly, my 9 yr old daughter was watching "Leged of the Guardian" in the family room (which only has the P362 in 2.0), and I thought there was a small subwoofer in the room. The bass is quite good. You will not need a subwoofer in your apartment.

It's not that the Center & Surround speakers are bad or anything.

I used to think that movies need to be 5.1 period.

But after watching a few movies with my daughters in the family room with just the P362 in 2.0, I'm not sure if the surround speakers and center speaker are really all that "necessary".

First, the surround speakers are just for plain ambient sound - background sound.

The center speaker is for dialogue because most people think the front L/R can't produce clear dialogue. I think that's because a lot of speakers are just plain "muddy" like some Polk speakers.

Actually, when I watch HD 1080p Television, I set the mode on my AVR to Direct 2.0 because I think it sounds a lot better than 5.1.

This is how I think about it. Look at some of the speaker measurements out there. Compare how the Center speaker does with how the Front L/R speakers do. I bet you the Front L/R, which are usually a lot more expensive, perform better than the Center speaker. The front L/R speakers are usually more accurate and have a better frequency response. There is no reason why the front L/R speakers cannot reproduce clear dialogue.

There is no right or wrong here. I just think that a pair of P363 or a pr of any good clear sounding tower speakers will do just fine for both music and movies in 2.0.

I'm thinking you live in an apartment, and you don't want a lot of LOUD sound, but at the same time you want clear sound with decent bass. For some reasons, a simple pair of P363 in 2.0 just come to my mind as a perfect fit.

I'm probably in the minority on this.

 

[GranteedEV]

. I think that's because a lot of speakers are just plain "muddy" like some Polk speakers.

A better way of wording that would be

"I think a lot of speakers that people own are Polk speakers, therefore they are muddy"



ON a side note, I do believe in center channels. I think they're a good idea for a very specific type of setup:

In an extremely large dedicated room.... like 25 ft x 40 ft or something with great horn speakers designed for constant directivity

What you can then do is really spread your front stage out.