Benefits of a seperate amp?

[jinjuku]

I also know, just as Ron pointed out in his system (which I have heard many iterations of), that speakers will sound different with different amps.

I know this is a hobby, and gawd knows I have my fair share of amps, it gets tedious after awhile of playing amp roulette:

Get a competent amp / overbuilt amp (if you are budget conscious look at a Crown Macro/Microtech used) and be done with it.Not sure about a speaker that it couldn't drive (maybe it would sweat with some Appoggee's).

Instead of putting all the effort into getting different amps (the time, the money, the shipping etc) I just decided to DIY about the highest end speaker I could. Others mileage will vary.

 

[Ron Temple]

$1k for those would require someone to be punched in the mouth.

Hater

 

[walter duque]

IMO a good amp is the best investment. I purchased this http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_1/cinepro3k6.html in 98. I have upgraded all my speakers 4 or 5 times, went through 4 processors but for my needs never needed to replace the amp.

 

[dem beats]

Yepimonfire, you remind me of me circa my first A/V adventure.

Having amps can only help with one thing. Giving you more power. That also means that the amp in question must have more capabilities than the amp in your receiver. That gap is getting more and more narrow with every generation of AV receivers. What happens after all the extra power, well, that is on the speaker end of things. In a perfect world we would have infinite watt amplifiers with endless supply of juice from .0001hz to 50billion hz and be able to drive .001 ohm to eleventytrillion ohms. This will give you headroom, and that's the end of the story. It's not going to be magic, but in certain instances it can help.



In a 5.x - 11.2 speaker system the onboard amp may just not have enough heuvos sometimes to push all of your speakers at once to that next level when playing back dynamic tracks that pull lots of amps. This can even happen at moderate, not ear bleedingly loud levels. On one of my older receivers for example, I would notice sometimes when watching certain scenes in a movie where all speakers would get excited at once the oomph would get lost. I can only describe it as muddy. Fast forward to my new receiver and that is greatly reduced and I don't notice it anymore. Maybe it would improve with some seperate amplification maybe not. It would have been much cheeper to get powerfull amplification and only upgrade the processing as time goes on. That's a fact.




If I could do it all over again... well I would have invested in seperate amps. I would have gon the pro amp route myself, but I'm sure other options would be great too.



Whilst I know, and share, your love for flat response, It's not always realistic in a room that you also have to live in though. Take for example the room you have set up, you're definately not following the prescribed method for perfect sound with the speakers up against the wall as you have them currently(unless the set up has changed from your other thread). I hope you don't feel like I'm flaming, it's just more of a "people in glass houses" kind of thinking. It's about getting the best out of the situation within the constraints that you have.

The fellas who like tube amps may have other constraints that they tame with the tube. Plus it's a cool throw back. I think it's mostly a waste, but I bet a tube amp would be about the most fun a guy could have in DIY. Some use EQ, audyssey, and other forms of correction to wrangle problems down. Some use room treatments.

My idealist preconceived notions have ebbed somewhat I suppose and I'm more forgiving as the more I approach the "doing it perfect" I watch the time and effort and $$$ increase in orders of magnitude every step of the way.

Back to the original question, yes, a powerfull seperate amp can provide some huge benefits despite some of the drawbacks.



PS - And definately tube amps are way more interesting than boring old SS. Know your roots!

 

[yepimonfire]

dem, i really don't think my headroom is lacking anything on this receiver, no matter what i throw at it ive NEVER been able to drive it into clipping, the other day i got 115dB at 35hz out of both channels without clipping, ive never had or played with any receiver that can do that with the same power rating as this receiver.

 

[Davemcc]

dem, i really don't think my headroom is lacking anything on this receiver, no matter what i throw at it ive NEVER been able to drive it into clipping, the other day i got 115dB at 35hz out of both channels without clipping, ive never had or played with any receiver that can do that with the same power rating as this receiver.

Which takes us full circle. You are unlikely to see much if any improvement from a separate amp with these speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

A more laid back amp might or might not improve things overall. It's about synergy between the amp, processor and speakers. .

No, it`s about synergy between speakers, room, original content. The amp, processor, cd player, etc are all just tools that should not be adding anything, and the speakers should be selected such that do do not require too much messing with the signal to get them to sound decent (and if it`s just one small thing, then buy an equalizer)

 

[Ron Temple]

No, it`s about synergy between speakers, room, original content. The amp, processor, cd player, etc are all just tools that should not be adding anything, and the speakers should be selected such that do do not require too much messing with the signal to get them to sound decent (and if it`s just one small thing, then buy an equalizer)

Plus your ears...I should have expanded that, but tools do make a difference.

 

[GranteedEV]

Plus your ears...I should have expanded that, but tools do make a difference.

No, they certainly don't. If they're adequate, that's all that matters.

 

[zumbo]

dem, i really don't think my headroom is lacking anything on this receiver, no matter what i throw at it ive NEVER been able to drive it into clipping, the other day i got 115dB at 35hz out of both channels without clipping, ive never had or played with any receiver that can do that with the same power rating as this receiver.

You do know that clipping is not something you hear, right?

Unless you have an amp with clip indicators, you probably don't know clipping is occurring.

Two things to note.

1) My Adcom has clip indicators. When it is allowed to clip continuously, I can get a slap from the speaker on the channel clipping. Very seldom that the speaker will slap, but the amp clips a good bit during high-output such as a concert dvd.

2) In a separate system, my Denon amp delivers double the power my speakers call for. I have gotten a slap on this system, but the amp was not clipping. The speakers were being over-driven.

 

[zumbo]

I would also like to mention that both of my systems use the same speakers.

System #2 has a much cleaner, tighter sound. Treble is cleaner, bass is tighter, more focused. Musicians instruments are better separated as well.

Basically system #2 gets louder and more detailed as the volume rises.

System #1 becomes compressed sounding when the volume rises. I would like to mention that the Adcom does a fantastic job, it just simply runs out of gas(clips) sooner.

 

[PENG]

2) In a separate system, my Denon amp delivers double the power my speakers call for. I have gotten a slap on this system, but the amp was not clipping. The speakers were being over-driven.

That's an important point you touched on. Quite often on forum like this people are told too much power wouldn't damage speakers, under power would blablabla....

In fact we can blow them by over driving them continuously. It may sound silly but powerful amps + idiots can do damage. .

 

[PENG]

Basically system #2 gets louder and more detailed as the volume rises.

System #1 becomes compressed sounding when the volume rises. I would like to mention that the Adcom does a fantastic job, it just simply runs out of gas(clips) sooner.

At what SPL in each case? Louder always get you more details because you can hear things otherwise would not be loud enough for you to hear but it is only true if the system does not run out of gas.

The 175W Adcom in a say 15X20X8 room with 88 to 90 dB at 2.83V 1 meter speaker sensitivity should be able to get you 85 dB of sustained SPL with decent head room for transient peaks. Was system 1 in a large room and you are talking SPL of >85 dB sustained?

 

[zumbo]

At what SPL in each case? Louder always get you more details because you can hear things otherwise would not be loud enough for you to hear but it is only true if the system does not run out of gas.

Didn't mean it to read that system #2 gets louder than system #1. I just meant that system #2 maintains it's clarity as it gets louder while maintaining perfect control over the speaker. The amp never even gets hot. Plenty of reserve power.

The 175W Adcom in a say 15X20X8 room with 88 to 90 dB at 2.83V 1 meter speaker sensitivity should be able to get you 85 dB of sustained SPL with decent head room for transient peaks. Was system 1 in a large room and you are talking SPL of >85 dB sustained?

The Adcom is in a larger room, but there is a definite SQ difference. Again, I didn't mean it to be a loudness difference between the systems.

It's just that the amp in system #1 gives-up before the speakers. I wanted to describe to the OP what clipping is, so I used my Adcom clipping as an example. Without the clip indicators, most wouldn't know the amp was clipping.

 

[PENG]

Didn't mean it to read that system #2 gets louder than system #1. I just meant that system #2 maintains it's clarity as it gets louder while maintaining perfect control over the speaker. The amp never even gets hot. Plenty of reserve power.



The Adcom is in a larger room, but there is a definite SQ difference. Again, I didn't mean it to be a loudness difference between the systems.

I did understand what you were saying in the first place. I asked about the SPL in each case because I was trying to understand why the Adcom was sounding compressed. The Denon maintains or get better with clarity as it gets louder is normal. The Adcom sounding compressed is not normal unless it went out of gas. I was wondering with 175W per channel on tap and you are only listening to 2 channel (I assume) so it probably is capable of much more so why would it run out of gas so soon. Hence my question about room size and SPL level.

I now have my 4308 140W receiver hooked up with my stereo system. I A/B'ed it with the much more powerful 4B SST at up to volume +5 and it held its own with no sign of compressed, reduced sound stage etc. In fact I had the impression that it would have maintained or even improve clarity further if I had cranked it up further. My room is small though, approx. 13.6X20X8. I don't doubt your Denon is very powerful but again I would have thought that Adcom could get to very high SPL in a not too large room before it begins to sound compressed, that's all. I am glad I have the old original Adcom GFA-555. I bet it would give your Denon a good run for its money.

 

[zumbo]

Another thing is that I was able to reach the limit of the speakers with the Denon. If this system were in the larger room, I still would've found that limit. Even sooner.

But, in the larger room, I find the limit of the Adcom before the speakers reach theirs. And, at this point, the Adcom is cooking. 2-channel, or surround.

 

[zumbo]

I now have my 4308 140W receiver hooked up with my stereo system. I A/B'ed it with the much more powerful 4B SST at up to volume +5 and it held its own with no sign of compressed, reduced sound stage etc. In fact I had the impression that it would have maintained or even improve clarity further if I had cranked it up further. My room is small though, approx. 13.6X20X8. I don't doubt your Denon is very powerful but again I would have thought that Adcom could get to very high SPL in a not too large room before it begins to sound compressed, that's all. I am glad I have the old original Adcom GFA-555. I bet it would give your Denon a good run for its money.

It's the speakers. 4ohm 87db.

 

[Pyrrho]

I would also like to mention that both of my systems use the same speakers.

System #2 has a much cleaner, tighter sound. Treble is cleaner, bass is tighter, more focused. Musicians instruments are better separated as well.

Basically system #2 gets louder and more detailed as the volume rises.

System #1 becomes compressed sounding when the volume rises. I would like to mention that the Adcom does a fantastic job, it just simply runs out of gas(clips) sooner.

And are these two systems in the same room with the same acoustics, with the speakers positioned identically? If not, then we can expect them to sound different due to different rooms and/or different speaker positioning.

 

[zumbo]

And are these two systems in the same room with the same acoustics, with the speakers positioned identically? If not, then we can expect them to sound different due to different rooms and/or different speaker positioning.

NO.

If I were to put the Denon rig in the same room as the Adcom rig I would still find the limit of the speaker first. Even sooner. The amp would still run cool and not reach clipping due to the fact the speaker just can't take the 300w.

If I were to move the Adcom rig to the other room I could still find it's limit before the speaker. It don't got enough for 'em. SPL doesn't matter.

I am not talking about loudness. I am either running an amp to it's limit, or a speaker. My ears can take either. These are not huge speakers you know. Just little 6.5" 2.5 way.

All of my replies were simply to describe clipping, because the OP claims his avr is not. I am saying, it could be.

 

[PENG]

It's the speakers. 4ohm 87db.

Sorry if you had mentioned that in earlier posts I must have forgotton. Now I can understand how that little Adcom got into trouble before the speakers. And you are right, the speakers may not yield a lot of SPL but depending on the design, it could suck a lot of juice.