Dayton RSS315HF-4 or 390HF-4?

[GO-NAD!]

honestly you aren't ever going to push it that hard so an ebs-3 might be an option, but it is still a loss in some headroom.

What's an ebs-3?

 

[GranteedEV]

an extended bass shelf \ low tuned ported sub which is 3db down at the tuning point. LLT is somewhat another word for an EBS.

personally i would tune just a little bit lower with just a little bit bigger box and let the natural room gain clean up the dip in frequency response. ported subs, even ebs, can sound unnatural if tuned for too flat a response because of rising in room response as you get lower in frequency.

 

[annunaki]

A couple of 12" drivers to look into would be the CSS SD12 and the Exodus Audio Shiva X2.

Both can get you -3db points at around 18hz in some enclosures to my specs (don't have time to post details yet) but they are both below 4.0ft^3 net volume required.

The Shiva will do very flat response too. lower -1db point of 21hz and an upper -1db point of 67hz.

The CSS would do lower -1db of 23hz and upper -1db of 70hz.

I am still looking for some 15" that may work for you here...

 

[GO-NAD!]

A couple of 12" drivers to look into would be the CSS SD12 and the Exodus Audio Shiva X2.

Both can get you -3db points at around 18hz in some enclosures to my specs (don't have time to post details yet) but they are both below 4.0ft^3 net volume required.

The Shiva will do very flat response too. lower -1db point of 21hz and an upper -1db point of 67hz.

The CSS would do lower -1db of 23hz and upper -1db of 70hz.

I am still looking for some 15" that may work for you here...

Here are the candidates so far:

RSS315HF - $138 (x 2) + shipping/brokerage + tax = $444
Has capabilities that meet requirements, but the enclosure is a bit on the large side - on the outer limits of acceptable.

TC Sounds Epic 12" - $180 (x 2)+ shipping/brokerage + tax = $537
Also meets requirements. Much smaller encloser requirements. However, how does it outperform the Dayton? The modeling in WinISD doesn't show me any advantage, other than enclosure size. I realize that there are more factors at play here, but my limited experience with sub design prevents me from being able to figure that out.

CSS Trio12 (x 2) + shipping + tax = $388
In the same ballpark as the drivers above, as far as performance is concerned. Smaller enclosure that the Dayton.

Exodus Audio Shiva X2
At $238/ea, before shipping, brokerage, a** raping, & taxes, I think this one falls outside what I'm willing to chuck out on this project.

Of these three drivers, the Trio 12 seems to have the best balance of performance, enclosure requirements and price. However, I haven't ruled out the others yet. Somebody would have to explain how the Epic is superior and worth the extra coin, for me to lean that way.

Could the RSS390HF in a sealed enclosure be suitable for HT duties?

 

[annunaki]

Here are the candidates so far:

RSS315HF - $138 (x 2) + shipping/brokerage + tax = $444
Has capabilities that meet requirements, but the enclosure is a bit on the large side - on the outer limits of acceptable.

TC Sounds Epic 12" - $180 (x 2)+ shipping/brokerage + tax = $537
Also meets requirements. Much smaller encloser requirements. However, how does it outperform the Dayton? The modeling in WinISD doesn't show me any advantage, other than enclosure size. I realize that there are more factors at play here, but my limited experience with sub design prevents me from being able to figure that out.

CSS Trio12 (x 2) + shipping + tax = $388
In the same ballpark as the drivers above, as far as performance is concerned. Smaller enclosure that the Dayton.

Exodus Audio Shiva X2
At $238/ea, before shipping, brokerage, a** raping, & taxes, I think this one falls outside what I'm willing to chuck out on this project.

Of these three drivers, the Trio 12 seems to have the best balance of performance, enclosure requirements and price. However, I haven't ruled out the others yet. Somebody would have to explain how the Epic is superior and worth the extra coin, for me to lean that way.

Could the RSS390HF in a sealed enclosure be suitable for HT duties?

Yes but you will give up some extension in a similar sized enclosures to the 12" vented counterparts.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Yes but you will give up some extension in a similar sized enclosures to the 12" vented counterparts.

Well, not much point taking that route, eh?

 

[annunaki]

Well, not much point taking that route, eh?

Well in looking at it again, if you use some EQ an anechoic f3 of 23.8hz can be had while keeping xmax in check. Although you need a 5.84 ft^3 enclosure, it can be done. This has an f6 at 21hz and an f10 at 17hz. All anechoic simulations. If you are interested here, I can get you the EQ settings. With room gain it should put you plat to 20hz would be my assumption, if not lower knowing your room size.

Anechoic output in the 108 db range with 300 watts rms. Lower -1db point at 28hz and upper -1db point at 84hz (assumes an 80hz 2nd order lowpass filter).

 

[annunaki]

Here are the candidates so far:

RSS315HF - $138 (x 2) + shipping/brokerage + tax = $444
Has capabilities that meet requirements, but the enclosure is a bit on the large side - on the outer limits of acceptable.

TC Sounds Epic 12" - $180 (x 2)+ shipping/brokerage + tax = $537
Also meets requirements. Much smaller encloser requirements. However, how does it outperform the Dayton? The modeling in WinISD doesn't show me any advantage, other than enclosure size. I realize that there are more factors at play here, but my limited experience with sub design prevents me from being able to figure that out.

CSS Trio12 (x 2) + shipping + tax = $388
In the same ballpark as the drivers above, as far as performance is concerned. Smaller enclosure that the Dayton.

Exodus Audio Shiva X2
At $238/ea, before shipping, brokerage, a** raping, & taxes, I think this one falls outside what I'm willing to chuck out on this project.

Of these three drivers, the Trio 12 seems to have the best balance of performance, enclosure requirements and price. However, I haven't ruled out the others yet. Somebody would have to explain how the Epic is superior and worth the extra coin, for me to lean that way.

Could the RSS390HF in a sealed enclosure be suitable for HT duties?

The Daytons model really well in 6.0ft^3 tuned to 19.5hz with 300 watts rms. 18hz anechoic f3 if you use a 4th order infrasonic filter at 17hz to keep xmax under control below tuning. Lower -1db point of 21hz with upper -1db of 67hz. 110db anechoic output.

The CSS driver will give you nearly identical performance to the Dayton in a 4.0ft^3 enclosure tuned to 19hz. -1db at 21hz and upper -1db point of 70hz. This driver has some left in reserve as well at the recommended 350 watts rms. A pair of these would yield very nice results in about 5.5ft^3 gross volume enclosures (each).

 

[GO-NAD!]

The Daytons model really well in 6.0ft^3 tuned to 19.5hz with 300 watts rms. 18hz anechoic f3 if you use a 4th order infrasonic filter at 17hz to keep xmax under control below tuning. Lower -1db point of 21hz with upper -1db of 67hz. 110db anechoic output.

The CSS driver will give you nearly identical performance to the Dayton in a 4.0ft^3 enclosure tuned to 19hz. -1db at 21hz and upper -1db point of 70hz. This driver has some left in reserve as well at the recommended 350 watts rms. A pair of these would yield very nice results in about 5.5ft^3 gross volume enclosures (each).

As much as I like the RSS series, the enclosure size requirements pose a significant hinderance to access behind my false wall. Originally, I felt I could put pretty much whatever I wanted back there because it wouldn't be seen. But, after giving it further thought, I realized that I still needed to be able to get behind that wall at times. Even the 315 needs a pretty large enclosure, so I think the Daytons will have to be eliminated. Especially since the Trio 12 appears to offer similar performance.

I still wonder what the Epic can offer me, for an extra $150/pr, that the Trio can't? I realize that amount isn't much, but really - what performance advantage does it have, that I could use? Is a cast frame more rigid than a stamped one? It's prettier for sure (although nobody will see it), but will it extend any lower than the Trio? It has higher power handling and, I assume, a corresponding increase in output capability. However, I don't require earth-shattering bass performance. I just want "competent" subwoofers.

I would offer this analogy. I drive a Ford Ranger, but not because I can't afford a F-150. It's because I don't need the extra payload of the F-150. I'm quite willing to pay the extra for the Epics, if I would utilize the higher capabilities, but not if the performance advantage goes to waste.

 

[annunaki]

In all honesty, I cannot see any specific reason to go the route of the Epic considering the cost difference. The CSS is a competent woofer in all respects. The Epic has a 3mm excursion advantage and, to meet the LF extension of the Epic, it requires a larger enclosure. The Epic from my models does not prefer to be tuned much below 22hz-23hz. One can shift to an -3db EBS design here but then the enclosure size increases over 4.5ft^3.

In terms of performance, the Epic does not really gain anything over the CSS. Especially when price is considered.

For those wondering about the CSS here is the driver I have now modeled below:

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-Trio12-data-051009.pdf

CORRECTION: I was modeling a discontinued CSS SDX-12 driver. I have since modeled the Trio 12. The great news here is that it models almost identically with a couple minor changes. 20hz tune instead of 19.5hz. 4.5ft^3 net volume instead of 4.0ft^3. performance is basically identical to the SDX-12. -1db points are the same of 21hz and 67hz.

Using my enclosure calculator, assuming .5ft^3 for bracing and woofer displacement and 1.291ft^3 for vent displacement you will need to have external dimensions around 29.5" x 16" x 28.5. This may be getting on the large side I suppose.
You will need your dimensions to total a gross enclosure volume of 6.344ft^3 but that accounts for everything.

If this will shoe horn into your space (a pair of them) I do not think you will be, in the least, at all disappointed.

This Trio 12 is an excellent buy.

 

[GO-NAD!]

In all honesty, I cannot see any specific reason to go the route of the Epic considering the cost difference. The CSS is a competent woofer in all respects. The Epic has a 3mm excursion advantage and, to meet the LF extension of the Epic, it requires a larger enclosure. The Epic from my models does not prefer to be tuned much below 22hz-23hz. One can shift to an -3db EBS design here but then the enclosure size increases over 4.5ft^3.

In terms of performance, the Epic does not really gain anything over the CSS. Especially when price is considered.

For those wondering about the CSS here is the driver I have now modeled below:

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-Trio12-data-051009.pdf

CORRECTION: I was modeling a discontinued CSS SDX-12 driver. I have since modeled the Trio 12. The great news here is that it models almost identically with a couple minor changes. 20hz tune instead of 19.5hz. 4.5ft^3 net volume instead of 4.0ft^3. performance is basically identical to the SDX-12. -1db points are the same of 21hz and 67hz.

Using my enclosure calculator, assuming .5ft^3 for bracing and woofer displacement and 1.291ft^3 for vent displacement you will need to have external dimensions around 29.5" x 16" x 28.5. This may be getting on the large side I suppose.
You will need your dimensions to total a gross enclosure volume of 6.344ft^3 but that accounts for everything.

If this will shoe horn into your space (a pair of them) I do not think you will be, in the least, at all disappointed.

This Trio 12 is an excellent buy.

Alrighty then! The Trio 12 will be the driver of choice here. I'll just have to massage the dimensions a bit to see how well it fits. It'll have to be wider than it is deep, as it can only be 20" deep. Although getting on the larger side, it's still smaller than what's needed for the RSS315HF.

Thanks Annunaki, once again. And, thanks a lot to everybody who has contributed to this discussion. I'll report on progress, once I get this project underway, although it may be a while.

 

[annunaki]

Alrighty then! The Trio 12 will be the driver of choice here. I'll just have to massage the dimensions a bit to see how well it fits. It'll have to be wider than it is deep, as it can only be 20" deep. Although getting on the larger side, it's still smaller than what's needed for the RSS315HF.

Thanks Annunaki, once again. And, thanks a lot to everybody who has contributed to this discussion. I'll report on progress, once I get this project underway, although it may be a while.

No problem fine sir! Glad I could help!

If in the mean time I come across another potential solution that is well suited to your application I will be sure to let you know.

 

[GO-NAD!]

No problem fine sir! Glad I could help!

If in the mean time I come across another potential solution that is well suited to your application I will be sure to let you know.

Please do! I have lots of time before I start, so I won't be ordering anything for a while yet.

 

[Guiria]

This thread has been a lot of fun to read. I was on the fence between two Titanic 12's and two CSS trio 12's for a small sealed application and ended up getting the Titanics because they modeled a little better in my max allowable box size. Now I am considering moving the subs and rebuilding the boxes ported and while the Titanic's will offer great performance, I kinda wish I had the Trio 12's to play with.

Certainly keep us posted if/when you pull the trigger.

 

[jinjuku]

I guess GR-Research purchased the leftover drivers used in the AV123 MFW-15's

$100

You have to call them direct as it is not listed on the sight.

 

[jinjuku]

here are the spec's:

the specs for the MFW-15

Re 3.04 Ohms
Le 2.07 mH
QM 6.62
QE 0.34
QT 0.32
Xmax 13.02 mm
Pmax 225 Watts
Bl 14.08 Tm
Coil Diameter 2.50 Inches
Gap Height 0.375 Inches
Efficiency 0.44 %
SPL 88.5 dB 1W-1m
fs 15.0 Hz
Mms 235.2 grams
Mmd 221.6 grams
Cms 0.476 mm/N
Rms 3.356 N*sec/m
Vas 458.9 liters
SD 823.7 cm^2
VD 1072.3 cm^3
EBP 44.1
Magnet Weight 112 ounces
Winding Width 1.400 inches

 

[annunaki]

here are the spec's:

the specs for the MFW-15

Re 3.04 Ohms
Le 2.07 mH
QM 6.62
QE 0.34
QT 0.32
Xmax 13.02 mm
Pmax 225 Watts
Bl 14.08 Tm
Coil Diameter 2.50 Inches
Gap Height 0.375 Inches
Efficiency 0.44 %
SPL 88.5 dB 1W-1m
fs 15.0 Hz
Mms 235.2 grams
Mmd 221.6 grams
Cms 0.476 mm/N
Rms 3.356 N*sec/m
Vas 458.9 liters
SD 823.7 cm^2
VD 1072.3 cm^3
EBP 44.1
Magnet Weight 112 ounces
Winding Width 1.400 inches

This driver would work in a 4.5ft^3 enclosure sealed with some application of Eq. With the eq an anechoic f3 of 23hz is achievable, with an f6 of 18.5hz. I can provide specifics if you or any one else is interested here.

This would be a simpler build and a smaller gross enclosure volume but requires EQ to achieve the lower f3. I cannot however vouch for the linearity of this driver. I am not aware of any special measures taken to provide linear output with the motor/suspension.

The other issue is what does one do down the road if there are problems with the woofers?

 

[Matt34]

They are $79/ea from GR Research as is. Guess you have to decide if the cheap price is worth not having a warranty.

The though has crossed my mind about buying four of these and making some cheap knock-off version of the Submersive.

 

[GO-NAD!]

If anyone is wondering why I haven't responded to the last few posts, I just got back from a week in the Dominican Republic. It was verrrrrry nice. And, when we got back, I didn't have to shovel the driveway!

 

[annunaki]

If anyone is wondering why I haven't responded to the last few posts, I just got back from a week in the Dominican Republic. It was verrrrrry nice. And, when we got back, I didn't have to shovel the driveway!

Welcome back! I hope you had a wonderful time there!