jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Ok moving them out a foot more and stuffing the ports with fiber fill helped a good amount. now instead of +/- 12-15db In that area I am +/- 6 or so. It's not perfect but an improvement. Thanks for your suggestions and keep posting kits, designs and speakers that might suit my needs.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Although I haven't heard Paradigm Monitor 7s, that sounds like other bass heavy Paradigm towers I have heard in the past. The Q is too high, making an exaggerated bass. They probably ring at that freq, with sloppy sounding bass rumbling on for too long.

Do you want new towers, or stand mounted MTMs?
Stand mounted MTM's for sure.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
The other thing is the new rec'r. If it's not THX then the Low Pass Filter may not be 24dB/oct. I know my H/K is 12dB/oct.
the audessey brands (marantz\onkyo\denon... not sure bout NAD) all appear to lowpass at 24. but again, it's the thx style high pass that's the issue.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Stand mounted MTM's for sure.
I've heard these a number of years ago and liked them.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-972

PE also has these,http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-782. I haven't heard them and I'm not sure they're worh the extra cost of $210 a pair.

I don't know what diameter the ports are in your Paradigms. You can seal them air tight with plumber's test plugs. They're cheap and come in 2", 3", 4" etc. diameters at hardware stores.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You might want to talk to j_garcia about the GR Research A/V-2's that you can get in kit form.
Those are also said to be good. I have a better opinion of the tweeter in the PE MTM than in the A/V-2, but I can't say it would be a deal breaker.

Alex's brick idea is good. The two ways to play with bass tuning are to change the cabinet volume and change the port length or diameter. You tried filling the port, now try making the Vb smaller.

I'm not sure, but I think the Monitor 7 is a 2.5-way design. The lower woofer has a different high frequency rolloff point than the upper woofer. They may have separate compartments within the cabinet and separately tuned ports as well. If so, remove the lower woofer and put in something, like a brick, to reduce the cabinet volume for the lower woofer.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Those are also said to be good. I have a better opinion of the tweeter in the PE MTM than in the A/V-2, but I can't say it would be a deal breaker.

Alex's brick idea is good. The two ways to play with bass tuning are to change the cabinet volume and change the port length or diameter. You tried filling the port, now try making the Vb smaller.

I'm not sure, but I think the Monitor 7 is a 2.5-way design. The lower woofer has a different high frequency rolloff point than the upper woofer. They may have separate compartments within the cabinet and separately tuned ports as well. If so, remove the lower woofer and put in something, like a brick, to reduce the cabinet volume for the lower woofer.
Yeah they are a quasi 2-way design, but both woofers are in the same cabinet. I checked that already :) Stuffing the port seemed to work good and effectively turned them into an aperiodicly damped speaker.

I am just going to replace and either sell these or use them in the bedroom. They are a great sounding speaker, but just not well suited to an HT setup with subwoofers.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Here's my last thought - for the time being :D.

Dennis Murphy had mentioned, in the past, that he eventually planned to do the same drivers as in his ER18 MTM tower design, but in a smaller stand mounted type cabinet, that could be used as a center speaker to go with the ER18 MTM towers. It depended on whether the towers were liked by the initial users or not.

I think the SEAS ER18 woofer is definitely better sounding than similar sized PE RS driver. If you think you might be interested, I'll ask Dennis about it.

Two things would be needed: 1) design a ported or sealed cabinet with appropriate bass tuning (my guess is that the ER18 might go either way), and 2) build one unfinished cabinet and sent it to Dennis so he can use it to design the crossover. He could easily do two different crossovers, one for vertical mounting and the other for horizonal mounting.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I have never understood the appeal behind stand mounted speakers to be honest. Smaller cabinets are a compromise, but if you've got the same footprint I just don't understand why you would make such a compromise. I would always try to get any woofer as close to critical damping as I could, which means a larger cabinet/tower.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The 40hz bump is the room node and even the subs have it, however audyssey corrects the subs just fine. Problem is the receivers crossover does not have a steep enough roll off to cut these speakers out. With the sub turned off and the crossover set to say 80hz the speakers are still playing down into the 40's. On their own the monitor 7's dip into the low 30's in my room.

I am about 12 feet from the back wall and about 11 ft or so from the speakers. The speakers are about a foot from the wall. I have not tried moving them out from the wall more yet.

You can see the room setup here.

What's happening I think is because the fronts are not rolling off like they should, they are playing information that sub is supposed to be playing and that just exacerbates the problem.
You can adjust the distance settings for the speakers, right? Play with that, at .1 ft resolution. Turn the sub off and set the front speakers' distance so you get the best bass response and image, but don't marry yourself to the actual distance- it's all relative. Do this using music with full-range sound and lots of percussion to give you timing cues. THEN, turn the sub on and work with the setting for that to get the best blend. Use your RTA software to find the flattest response with only the front speakers playing and watch the response dip when you turn the sub on. If the dip is extreme, reverse the polarity of the sub or main speakers. Another thing I would do is move the sub so it's not centered on a wall. Also, I see that you don't have anything in, or at the corners to absorb energy. I would strongly recommend adding something thicker there- it made a huge difference in my room and I just don't think Gonzo is getting the job done. BTW- my towers' -3dB is at 38Hz from my seating location and the sub crossover in my receiver is set at 60Hz. With the sub on, the -3dB drops to 34Hz. Since it's a smaller room and I don't feel the need to go below this, it works for me. I still want musical realism and I don't listen to pipe organ music but I'm realistic enough to know that the lowest frequencies won't come without a high price. I'm very happy with the sound of bass guitar and all drums on well-recorded music. It's sometimes hard to get these "right", as well as have natural sounding human voices. Having played bass and guitar for a long time, I have a good way to compare the real thing with the simulation.

Changing the distance setting for the sub is like having a variable phase control because you can "virtually" alter the sub's position in .1 ft increments and that's a lot better than just being able to reverse the polarity. If you listen closely, you'll be able to pick out each separate incremental change which is great, but it becomes annoying. Once you find the best settings, look out- you're not going to want to do much more than listen to all of your favorite music. Hitting the spot is a real 'Eureka' moment.

Don't forget- your listening position plays a major role in how the system sounds. Use the Room Mode Calculator to find where the modes coincide and avoid placing the speakers or your seating in those spots.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
OTOH, who am I to stand in the way of GAS?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Although I haven't heard Paradigm Monitor 7s, that sounds like other bass heavy Paradigm towers I have heard in the past. The Q is too high, making an exaggerated bass. They probably ring at that freq, with sloppy sounding bass rumbling on for too long.

Do you want new towers, or stand mounted MTMs?
Swerd is right. This is the reason I have yet to hear a Paradigm that I didn't like the equivalent PSB of better. They were always tubby down low.

I would look at the Zaph ZDT3.5's. They are a 4 way with a super smooth range top to bottom. Just a great value over all. I would put my 3.5's up against anything in the $3K range easy.

If you don't mind trading output for a higher resolution mid section look at Zaph's ZA5 designs.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
You need to be my guinea pig and try the Dayton MTM that Swerd linked earlier.;) I've been curious about them for awhile now.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Interesting thread!

Neat! I would have never thought that 40Hz could be a significant problem from speakers crossed at 80z (even with exaggerated bass)!
If the port was tuned for 40Hz, is it possible that the speaker/port would in any way act as a feedback loop of sorts from subwoofer and/or room mode energy?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Swerd is right. This is the reason I have yet to hear a Paradigm that I didn't like the equivalent PSB of better. They were always tubby down low.

I would look at the Zaph ZDT3.5's. They are a 4 way with a super smooth range top to bottom. Just a great value over all. I would put my 3.5's up against anything in the $3K range easy.

If you don't mind trading output for a higher resolution mid section look at Zaph's ZA5 designs.
I doubt that MMTMM would be tooo starved for output, crossed to a sub. It's no Statements for output though :p
 
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