I Need new fronts.

[jeffsg4mac]

Hey guys,

Maybe you can help me solve a problem. I need new left and right fronts to start with and I may replace my Paradigm Studio center if it does not blend well with new L,R's.

Here is the issue. My Paradigm Monitor 7's just play too low and cause an exaggerated peak around 40hz that even Audyssey can't correct for. You have to raise the crossover point up to 120hz in order to get rid of it. That is just not acceptable to me. I need some fronts that start dropping off at 70-80hz.

I would prefer dual 5 1/4 or dual 6's in a D'Appolito alignment and not crazy expensive. 500-700 for parts is ok. I have looked the Parts Express kits, and they have a few that I think will work, but I am also looking for any other suggestions too. Thanks!

 

[highfigh]

Hey guys,

Maybe you can help me solve a problem. I need new left and right fronts to start with and I may replace my Paradigm Studio center if it does not blend well with new L,R's.

Here is the issue. My Paradigm Monitor 7's just play too low and cause an exaggerated peak around 40hz that even Audyssey can't correct for. You have to raise the crossover point up to 120hz in order to get rid of it. That is just not acceptable to me. I need some fronts that start dropping off at 70-80hz.

I would prefer dual 5 1/4 or dual 6's in a D'Appolito alignment and not crazy expensive. 500-700 for parts is ok. I have looked the Parts Express kits, and they have a few that I think will work, but I am also looking for any other suggestions too. Thanks!

Does this peak at 40Hz disappear if the sub is turned off? f not, you're exciting a room mode and if you like the speakers in all other respects, it might be easier to get the sound you want by slightly moving the ones you have. It may be just a change in the toe-in, or maybe they're too close to the wall. Hard to say without seeing the room's setup and speaker position. Are you sitting close to the wall that's behind you? That can make a big difference, too.

You could always try blocking the port. That will definitely raise the -3dB point.

 

[Swerd]

I would prefer dual 5 1/4 or dual 6's in a D'Appolito alignment and not crazy expensive. 500-700 for parts is ok. I have looked the Parts Express kits, and they have a few that I think will work, but I am also looking for any other suggestions too. Thanks!

The ER18 MTM DIY costs are right in your price range. I'd certainly recommend it, and so would sklyline_123! The version with the dome tweeter costs a bit less than the ribbon tweeter version. See the price list in that thread.

Have you ever built a speaker before? Skyline_123's photos are great examples of how to build the cabinets.

Edit: After reading highfigh's post, I realized I ignored your point about the 40 Hz peak. Highfigh may be right that it could be the room more than the speakers causing that problem. In my limited experience, I do believe that transmission line bass (such as in the ER18s) does a smoother job of integrating with a room and subwoofers than vented port type speakers.

What makes you think your Paradigms cause the 40 Hz peak?

 

[Alex2507]

Get a hold of Sean/skyline_123. He just built a couple of different speakers in differing price ranges and would be up on what's currently available in differing price ranges.

You can check out his 2 builds here. He's been Swerd guided. He's an engineer. He's my nephew and he might be republican. God save us all.

Edit: Great minds ...

 

[Swerd]

Did Sean tell you that Dennis Murphy contacted him? He wants to update his DIY website, MurphyBlaster Productions, to include the ER18 and show some of Sean's build photos.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I agree...Have you moved the speakers & sub and measured? Have you measured with the sub turned off?

I can't help you with DIY suggestions...

 

[jeffsg4mac]

The 40hz bump is the room node and even the subs have it, however audyssey corrects the subs just fine. Problem is the receivers crossover does not have a steep enough roll off to cut these speakers out. With the sub turned off and the crossover set to say 80hz the speakers are still playing down into the 40's. On their own the monitor 7's dip into the low 30's in my room.

I am about 12 feet from the back wall and about 11 ft or so from the speakers. The speakers are about a foot from the wall. I have not tried moving them out from the wall more yet.

You can see the room setup here.

What's happening I think is because the fronts are not rolling off like they should, they are playing information that sub is supposed to be playing and that just exacerbates the problem.

 

[jostenmeat]

Definitely, most definitely, try pulling from the front wall. If it improves the sound, and you would like to pull them even further but cannot do so for whatever reason, you may be advised to look towards bass traps not just for the corners, but for directly behind the speakers too (to reduce SBIR).

edit: Ok, nm I see that you do have some panels, hmm. Ok pull the speakers out, Gonzo says so!

 

[GranteedEV]

Bass traps won't do much at 40hz..not unless they are extremely thick like 12 inches with a good 2 foot gap between them and the walls.. different placement, more subs, and sharp EQ cuts (with a DCX) are your best bet.

one thing you might want to try is to get a dipole like the NaO II

 

[Swerd]

The 40hz bump is the room node and even the subs have it, however audyssey corrects the subs just fine. Problem is the receivers crossover does not have a steep enough roll off to cut these speakers out. With the sub turned off and the crossover set to say 80hz the speakers are still playing down into the 40's. On their own the monitor 7's dip into the low 30's in my room.

OK, that makes sense. It is possible that the Monitor 7s have an exaggerated bass response so large that it persists even with your receiver's bass crossover. If that is the case, I don't think changing location or equalizing would help enough.

Try, as jm suggests, pulling the towers further out from the wall and/or corner to see if that helps. If it does, that suggests that room standing waves are the problem. Even if you can't keep them in that location, that is worth knowing. Then you can try making a narrow notch filter around 40 Hz with your DEC and see if that helps.

GranteedEV's point about bass traps not doing much at 40 Hz is right.

If a notch filter can't do the trick, then it may be time to get some new speakers . Just because the Paradigm towers are bass heavy, don't assume all towers will be the same.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I just tried moving them out another foot and helped just a little, however they still play too low. F3 on these things is just too low for an HT speaker running with subs. Just for kicks I stuck a pair of my Atoms up front. Problem gone! So I definitely need a good pair of speakers that are tuned to drop off at 70-80hz.

 

[GranteedEV]

I just tried moving them out another foot and helped just a little, however they still play too low. F3 on these things is just too low for an HT speaker running with subs. Just for kicks I stuck a pair of my Atoms up front. Problem gone! So I definitely need a good pair of speakers that are tuned to drop off at 70-80hz.

try shoving a sock in tje ports to see if that does anything...

imo HT speakers designed to cross at 80hz should not be bass reflex. and you do have them set to small on the processor right? otherwise they will not be highpassed

 

[Swerd]

I just tried moving them out another foot and helped just a little, however they still play too low. F3 on these things is just too low for an HT speaker running with subs. Just for kicks I stuck a pair of my Atoms up front. Problem gone! So I definitely need a good pair of speakers that are tuned to drop off at 70-80hz.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "they still play too low". Why is too low a problem? Is it too low, or do the Monitor 7s sound wrong when the same freqs from your subwoofer sound better?

 

[jeffsg4mac]

try shoving a sock in tje ports to see if that does anything...

imo HT speakers designed to cross at 80hz should not be bass reflex. and you do have them set to small on the processor right? otherwise they will not be highpassed

I just stuffed some fiber fill in the ports and going to measure again in a second.

Of course they are set to small. Who do you think your are taliking to an idiot Don't answer the last question

I disagree though. I think bass reflex is a better choice because of the steeper roll off. Acoustic suspensions have a much more gradual roll off on the low end.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "they still play too low". Why is too low a problem? Is it too low, or do the Monitor 7s sound wrong when the same freqs from your subwoofer sound better?

They are playing the same frequencies that the subs are supposed to be playing. When my crossover is set to 80hz my fronts are not supposed to be down only 3db or so at 40. So combined with sub you get a summation and it just happens also that my room has a node in that area which makes it even worse.

 

[Swerd]

They are playing the same frequencies that the subs are supposed to be playing. When my crossover is set to 80hz my fronts are not supposed to be down only 3db or so at 40. So combined with sub you get a summation and it just happens also that my room has a node in that area which makes it even worse.

OK, now I'm beginning to get it. Sorry that I've been slow.

It measures different than what you would like, but does it sound objectionable?

Can you do a narrow notch filter with your DEC? Center it around the ~40 Hz peak, and vary the width and attenuation by trial and error, until you get the overall response as smooth as possible. Perfectly flat at that freq is probably not a real possibility. With corrective notch filters, less is more. If you overdo it, you can dig too deep a hole in the response.

 

[GranteedEV]

I just stuffed some fiber fill in the ports and going to measure again in a second.

Of course they are set to small. Who do you think your are taliking to an idiot Don't answer the last question

I disagree though. I think bass reflex is a better choice because of the steeper roll off. Acoustic suspensions have a much more gradual roll off on the low end.

heres the thing: most processors lowpass at 24db/octave but highpass at 12db/octave

so the only way to get symmetry both ways is a 12db/octave acoustic suspension rolloff with the rolloff I believe 3db down at 72hz - this is a prototypical THX certified speaker. otherwise you must cross lower - not higher - which itself opens a new can of worms! since you've got vents, either you have too much speaker (flat to well below crossover point) or too much subwoofer (speaker rolls off too quickly).

now if your processor allows a 4th order high pass you may be able to deal with ot, but the only prpcessor that does i can think of top of my head is the emotiva... which has a highly flawed bass management system anyways

the port tuning also causes audible degradation of aound quality unless you push it below audible thresholds (20hz)

 

[Alex2507]

This is probably the stupider of the suggestions you're gonna hear but yank a driver and then stick some bricks in there to decrease the Vb and raise the F3.

Try just one and compare it to the other.

The other thing is the new rec'r. If it's not THX then the Low Pass Filter may not be 24dB/oct. I know my H/K is 12dB/oct.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

OK, now I'm beginning to get it. Sorry that I've been slow.

It measures different than what you would like, but does it sound objectionable?

Can you do a narrow notch filter with your DEC? Center it around the ~40 Hz peak, and vary the width and attenuation by trial and error, until you get the overall response as smooth as possible. Perfectly flat at that freq is probably not a real possibility. With corrective notch filters, less is more. If you overdo it, you can dig too deep a hole in the response.

No I can't because I took the DEQ24/96 out of the loop. Audyssey corrects the sub better than what I did with it. Sub is nice and flat, damn towers just go lower than I would like for this setup. It does sound objectionable too. it is about a 12db peak in the 40hz region.

 

[Swerd]

No I can't because I took the DEQ24/96 out of the loop. Audyssey corrects the sub better than what I did with it. Sub is nice and flat, damn towers just go lower than I would like for this setup. It does sound objectionable too. it is about a 12db peak in the 40hz region.

Although I haven't heard Paradigm Monitor 7s, that sounds like other bass heavy Paradigm towers I have heard in the past. The Q is too high, making an exaggerated bass. They probably ring at that freq, with sloppy sounding bass rumbling on for too long.

Do you want new towers, or stand mounted MTMs?