How loud is too loud for music?

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm hoping someone has some experience, and can give some guidelines for how loud is dangerous to your hearing when listening to music.

OSHA has good standards, but they are designed for continuous exposure to steady noise.
The nature of music is more of an impulse sound.

Does anyone know what the limits are for this or another condition that better approximates music?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm hoping someone has some experience, and can give some guidelines for how loud is dangerous to your hearing when listening to music.

OSHA has good standards, but they are designed for continuous exposure to steady noise.
The nature of music is more of an impulse sound.

Does anyone know what the limits are for this or another condition that better approximates music?
We have a music festival called Summerfest and the target SPL at the tower for the mixers is 95dB. Being there all day is definitely enough to cause ringing, even with the breaks between bands. If your ears ring, it's enough for permanent damage. Knowing the SPL of the peaks is just academic at that point. Also, the music may/may not be dynamic- I have heard plenty that is highly compressed and very consistent in SPL.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
We have a music festival called Summerfest and the target SPL at the tower for the mixers is 95dB.
So is that an averaged value while music is playing or is that for the peaks like you would set for recording (at least in the old analog days)?

Good point on highly compressed music.

It does seem like there would be some precedence from industrial hygiene which might offer some guidelines.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So is that an averaged value while music is playing or is that for the peaks like you would set for recording (at least in the old analog days)?

Good point on highly compressed music.

It does seem like there would be some precedence from industrial hygiene which might offer some guidelines.
The 95dB is from using a hand-held SPL meter. I don't know how it's weighted but at that level, it's not much different if it's A or C although, having been at Summerfest every year since it started in '67, 95dB is loud enough because it's really full-range. I don't go to a live music venue without ear plugs and I ALWAYS stuff them in whenever I'm closer to the stage than the tower. The sound is nothing like what someone gets from their stereo regardless of how expensive the amps and speakers are and I have never heard sound like this in anyone's house or bar

Also, since this festival is all outdoor stages, they use line arrays so the sound is dispersed more than if they used horns, so there are very few hot spots. Still, the closest seats are pretty close to the stage (great for the experience but bad for the ears) and the front row is probably 100' closer than the tower.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If your ears hurt, or you hear ringing in your ears, you are listening too loud and are damaging your hearing. As for how loud will damage your ears, it depends upon how long you hear it. Anything over 85 dB is known to be able to cause permanent damage if it is long enough. See:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/abouthlp/noisemeter_flash/soundmeter_flash.html

One thing to remember in this is that hearing loss may not be noticed right away, and may only cause trouble for you later on in life. So it can be difficult to tell exactly how loud is actually safe. It may be that slightly less than what is known to cause damage may actually cause damage, but due to the delay between exposure and hearing loss, it may simply not have been documented. One never proves that a particular level is safe; it is only proven that certain levels are harmful, and no harm has yet been noticed for less than a certain amount. The same, by the way, is true of carcinogens consumed, damage from ingestion of poison, etc. So if you want to be actually safe, you probably want to not push things to the limits of what has been known to cause damage.

Also, how much damage may occur is not purely a function of how loud the sound is. The particular frequencies matter a great deal in how much damage the sound does to your hearing. For OSHA standards relative to frequency, see the graph at:

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735

One thing to notice is that very, very deep bass is less damaging than midrange frequencies, so turning up a subwoofer too high and making the music boomy does not pose the same hazard as simply turning up the volume to achieve the same level of bass. (Of course, the overall volume would be higher that way as well, due to there being the same amount of bass and simply more midrange and treble. And turning up the subwoofer excessively makes the music sound like crap, but quite a few people like things to sound like crap.)

As highfigh correctly points out, quite a bit of music is at a fairly constant level. Most popular music is not very dynamic, and consequently the peaks are not usually much higher than the average SPL.

If you want to read a fairly lengthy document on this:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/98-126/pdfs/98-126.pdf

Judging from what it states in that document, it would appear that, for periods longer than 8 hours, sounds softer than 85dB may cause damage. And one will find that following OSHA standards does not guarantee no damage; it is only reducing the possible damage to what they consider to be an acceptable risk. So if you want to actually be safe, you should keep things softer than OSHA allows in the workplace.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If your ears hurt, or you hear ringing in your ears, you are listening too loud and are damaging your hearing. As for how loud will damage your ears, it depends upon how long you hear it. Anything over 85 dB is known to be able to cause permanent damage if it is long enough.
Another thing that people ignore is being exposed to any sound that's a constant frequency or range of frequencies. Any constant exposure to droning sounds, maybe from an HVAC system, fans/blowers of any kind and that kind of thing decreases sensitivity in that range and it's subtle, at first. Eventually, it's noticeable but by that time, the damage has been done.

Some people seem to be less susceptible to the effects of high SPL and I'll see if I can find the article I read last year.

The thing that really pizzes me off is seeing people with little kids on their shoulders, walking through the crowd at a music festival where the level is extremely high. Little ears are more sensitive and don't recover from this. It's a wonder more kids aren't considered to be learning-impaired when they're actually losing their hearing (I have known a couple who were in this category). I'm not even sure they do hearing tests in schools anymore.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... I'm not even sure they do hearing tests in schools anymore.
They might for cause but by then, the damage is done and not reversible.
Ringing will also take time to manifest itself and is usually too late. Kids, people just don't listen unless there is an instant side effect, like cutting your finger, or a nail gun strike;):D Same with smoking. Brother in law was a smoker but quit too late. Cancer is present.:eek:
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
They might for cause but by then, the damage is done and not reversible.
Ringing will also take time to manifest itself and is usually too late. Kids, people just don't listen unless there is an instant side effect, like cutting your finger, or a nail gun strike;):D Same with smoking. Brother in law was a smoker but quit too late. Cancer is present.:eek:
Yes, most people do not heed warnings about future danger. That is why so many old people in industrialized countries have hearing problems, and also one of the reasons why so many get cancer.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
They might for cause but by then, the damage is done and not reversible.
Ringing will also take time to manifest itself and is usually too late. Kids, people just don't listen unless there is an instant side effect, like cutting your finger, or a nail gun strike;):D Same with smoking. Brother in law was a smoker but quit too late. Cancer is present.:eek:
So true. I think we all need to be smarter, but the fight instinct does get the better of us some time. A lot of us long for intensity that matters.
 
B

BassAddictJ

Audiophyte
depends on teh listener.....i have a solid 145db legal @ 45hz in my car and i still have the itch to get louder :cool:


im sure if i had anything REMOTELY close to that loud in my home my neighbors would riot.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
depends on teh listener.....i have a solid 145db legal @ 45hz in my car and i still have the itch to get louder :cool:


im sure if i had anything REMOTELY close to that loud in my home my neighbors would riot.
i seriously doubt youre listening to music that loud in your car or you would be instantaneously deafened, as far as what i think would be too loud, or better yet what i use as a safety guidline, set the volume to a comfortably loud volume and leave it, people have a tendency to slowly crank it more and more because they become used to the sound. if you ever noticed leaving it at the "gradually cranked volume" when finishing listening, then coming back later and turning it on with that volume level initially, it is painfully loud.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I try to limit the peak volume to 85dB using a digital SPL meter.

But I notice that it is anywhere between 65dB - 85dB.

If I suspect that the volume sounds louder than normal, I will turn down the volume immediately and turn on the SPL meter.:D
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
wow this is the second bot ive seen today SOMEONE BAN THEM
 
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