beginner truck setup, confused with RMS and power

K

kainhall

Audiophyte
so i got some pioneer speakers. the one is 50W normal the other is 60W. there 2 6.5 and 2 6x9s that is why the W is a little off.

i think one set has a MAX of 300W.

so i want to get an amp with 60 W per channel normal with a max of 600W.

so, will i toast these speakers? they are not new, but they are old school pioneers!

is it going to depend on how loud i have the tunes cranked? just dont get TO damn high?

a also have a CD player that puts out 16W a channel with the option to turn off the internal amp. i should turn it off when i hook it up to the amp right?

do i really even need an amp?

im tired of my single speaker and TAPE PLAYER!!!!!! i have in my 77' chevy shortbox right now.!

thanks
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
i will try to get the MAX power off the speakers tommorow.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
so i got some pioneer speakers. the one is 50W normal the other is 60W. there 2 6.5 and 2 6x9s that is why the W is a little off.

i think one set has a MAX of 300W.

so i want to get an amp with 60 W per channel normal with a max of 600W.

so, will i toast these speakers? they are not new, but they are old school pioneers!

is it going to depend on how loud i have the tunes cranked? just dont get TO damn high?

a also have a CD player that puts out 16W a channel with the option to turn off the internal amp. i should turn it off when i hook it up to the amp right?

do i really even need an amp?

im tired of my single speaker and TAPE PLAYER!!!!!! i have in my 77' chevy shortbox right now.!

thanks
A 60W amplifier won't come close to 600W peak power. If the spec sheet shows that, keep looking. If the amp has anything less than one 30A fuse or two 20A fuses, it still won't do 600W.

Post the make and model of any head units and amps you're looking at.

The most important connections in a car audio system are power and ground. Period. Also, it's not enough to run a heavy power wire and ground the amp to the floor pan or some other metal in the truck- the return path has to be equal to the power wire and most vehicles use a 12ga wire from the body to the battery's negative post. Whatever the power cable's gauge is, make sure you add the same from the body to the battery negative cable clamp.

If you do use an amp, you should turn the head unit's amp off if that's an option.

You won't necessarily toast the speakers but you should make sure the amp's input sensitivity controls are set correctly. If they're wide open and you crank the snot out of the head unit, the amp will distort and yes, your speakers will die young. If you want it loud, your speakers can last a long time if you set the system up correctly.
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
the CD player is an alpine CDE-9845.

the amp i was looking at is pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Amplifiers/GM+Series/GM-6400F?tab=manuals

the speakers are 50/60 W normal. cant remember the max power, but its 250 and 300 i think.

12 gauge is small. what do you recomend?

about the negitive cable. your saying run a 12 gauge + cable to the amp. from the amp run a - cable to the frame. then have a - cable going from teh frame to the - post on the battery? the - cable being 12 gauge as well?

or a + from battery to amp. from amp a - to the battery?
and the sentivity. thats the gain setting?


thanks for the quick reply!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
the CD player is an alpine CDE-9845.

the amp i was looking at is pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Car/Amplifiers/GM+Series/GM-6400F?tab=manuals

the speakers are 50/60 W normal. cant remember the max power, but its 250 and 300 i think.

12 gauge is small. what do you recomend?

about the negitive cable. your saying run a 12 gauge + cable to the amp. from the amp run a - cable to the frame. then have a - cable going from teh frame to the - post on the battery? the - cable being 12 gauge as well?

or a + from battery to amp. from amp a - to the battery?
and the sentivity. thats the gain setting?


thanks for the quick reply!
Is there any chance that you'll add a sub-woofer amp, in the future? If money is tight now, you can run another power cable later but if you can, run one 4 ga (up to about 60A @ 15' of cable length) and use distribution blocks on the power and ground. Your truck is old enough that the firewall has wide, open spaces to pass the cables through and not be pinched or near any excessive heat sources. Use a plastic or rubber grommet on the holes (Parts Express has everything you'll need for this) so the edge of the metal won't cut the insulation. Also, you need to put a circuit breaker or fuse within 12" of the battery + post (closer is better) to protect you and the truck. I prefer re-settable circuit breakers and have used Stinger brand parts in the past (when I did car audio on a full-time basis). The ground cable doesn't need this, only the positive.

If the truck is really clean and rust-free, you can use the floor pan as the ground path but you'll definitely need to use a heavy ground wire from the body to the battery (-) terminal. Using a long ground cable isn't always the best way to go because it can pick up noise along the way and it's harder to eliminate it. You'll need to run a turn-on lead with the power wire- 18ga is fine because it carries very little current.

The controls for the input don't actually affect the amp's gain- that's fixed by design. The input sensitivity means that it takes XX Volts to develop 60W (or whatever an amp puts out) and if you have a high output head unit, you'll reach full power earlier on the volume control than a lower output head unit. To minimize the problem of one volume setting being too low and the next one being too high, using the sensitivity controls allows a smoother transition from low to high volume. Another benefit of high output head units is that the amp's sensitivity can be decreased and there will be less background noise.
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
so the power and RMS ratings are fine?

still confused on the negitive side of things. from the amp to the floor pan. from the floor pan to the frame needs a larger wire. and where the negitive post of the battery connects to the frame needs a bigger wire?

i have to look at my grounds aswell, i have noise at low RPM you cna hear it whine in the speaker.

the 18 gauge "turn on lead" is the remote power. the wire that turns on and off the amp depending if the CD player has power?

the specs of that amp said it has gain controls, but i know what you mean about sensitivity.

i live in a town of 3000 in montana, its hard to find people to help out with out paying 60 an hour for labor!


so, lets say my speakers are 50 w RMS and the amp puts out 75 W RMS (both values being continuis). as long as the sentivity does nto go from 40W to 90W to the speakers, it should get SO loud at 50W that to blow a speaker my ears would also be blown. i mean the Db level would be so high you could not stand it and if i still cranked the sound up THEN i rish blowing crap up?

i really dont have room in it for a TRUE woofer. just behind hte seat and under it. both usualy have a mixture of crap, 90 weight and 30 weaght oil and other fluids to keep the old girl alive all over it. not the best place for a nice woofer. if i can get enough bass out of the 6x9s i dont care. not to extream as they are not ment to be bass-y, but you get the idea.
 
N

Nestor

Senior Audioholic
Under-powered amps have killed more car speakers than over-powered amps.

An amp that clips or has high Total Harmonic Distortion when being over-driven can send some nasty frequencies to your tweeters.

The Pioneer amp should be fine. It's bridgeable. I'd dump the 6X9's and get a single 10 or 12" sub for behind the seat.

Don't overlook shallow-mount subs. You'd be surprised what you can fit behind your seat.

http://www.crutchfield.com/g_520/Component-Subwoofers.html?tp=111&nvpair=AG_General_Features|FFShallow_Mount

8 gauge power wire should be sufficient for that amp. 4 gauge if you are thinking of upgrading in the future.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
so the power and RMS ratings are fine?

still confused on the negitive side of things. from the amp to the floor pan. from the floor pan to the frame needs a larger wire. and where the negitive post of the battery connects to the frame needs a bigger wire?

i have to look at my grounds aswell, i have noise at low RPM you cna hear it whine in the speaker.

the 18 gauge "turn on lead" is the remote power. the wire that turns on and off the amp depending if the CD player has power?

the specs of that amp said it has gain controls, but i know what you mean about sensitivity.

i live in a town of 3000 in montana, its hard to find people to help out with out paying 60 an hour for labor!


so, lets say my speakers are 50 w RMS and the amp puts out 75 W RMS (both values being continuis). as long as the sentivity does nto go from 40W to 90W to the speakers, it should get SO loud at 50W that to blow a speaker my ears would also be blown. i mean the Db level would be so high you could not stand it and if i still cranked the sound up THEN i rish blowing crap up?

i really dont have room in it for a TRUE woofer. just behind hte seat and under it. both usualy have a mixture of crap, 90 weight and 30 weaght oil and other fluids to keep the old girl alive all over it. not the best place for a nice woofer. if i can get enough bass out of the 6x9s i dont care. not to extream as they are not ment to be bass-y, but you get the idea.
The output power is fine and as Nestor posted, low power kills far more speakers than high power. The sensitivity controls can be set so that you don't use the amp's maximum power and that will not only save your speakers, it will save your ears.

Look at the floor pan as a conductor- the current won't go in a narrow, straight path from the amp's ground wire to the battery connection- it has the ability to travel wherever possible and that means it could carry a lot more current than your amp will draw. Also, any electrical noise that is inside or outside of the vehicle will reach the body and go straight to the battery ground. You want this to happen, trust me. If you run a separate ground wire from the amp to the battery, it will act as an antenna, picking up any noise that's nearby and it won't necessarily be filtered out by the battery (the battery us a really good filter as long as it's in good condition).

The floor pan is a big conductor but that little ground wire from the body to the battery is only sized to handle the lights and other accessories and if you add an amplifier, it's immediately too small.

The turn-on lead connects to the head unit's blue wire and all head units have one.

If you have whine, is it all the time, or just when you play a tape? If it's only when playing a tape, it's likely that moving the head unit away from the dash will affect the volume of the noise and that means it's from a wire that's passing close to the tape head. Look in the area of the head unit for a heavy pink wire and if you see it, move it away from the head unit and listen fro changes in the noise level. You shouldn't have the noise if you install a CD player but if you buy one with an AUX input, it may be an issue when you use that.

They're called 'gain control' but it's not necessarily the correct term- it's just more common and because of that, they just let it go to avoid confusion.

The speakers will produce a certain amount of sound with 1 Watt of input and they'll handle a certain amount of power, assuming it's not distorted and the bass hasn't been cranked to the limit. Your truck's cab isn't very big and if you close the windows, it will be plenty loud. Open the windows and add a loud exhaust and you'll need more power just to hear the music over the noise. 60 W of clean power won't be a problem for the speakers unless you crank the bass up too high for the speakers to handle. If you use the filters on the amp (setting these to 60Hz will definitely add to the speakers' life span), you won't hear a difference because your truck doesn't have a trunk to create deep bass but it will also keep the bass from damaging the speakers. One speaker with 1W will be audible but adding three more will be appreciably louder. Add 60W/ch and it's now a lot louder.

Your ears get one chance- once they're damaged, it doesn't come back completely, if at all. If you turn it up to about 75% (the head unit will distort at a certain point, too- it should never be turned all the way up), and think it's too loud you'll know that you have more power than you'll use and that's far better than turning it all the way up and not having enough power.
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
everythign is answered. thanks a lot!

on my truck i think there is a wire from the floor pan to the frame it self. it runs along the frame to the front. then a wire comes off the frame and to the - side of the battery. im going to incresse teh diameter anyways JUST to be safe.

i have a 1943 m1 garand that i go hunting with. its messed my ears up more then loud music has. i know the dangers of hearing loss...you cnat hear stuff!

i would love that sub, but i got the 6x9s for free. mabey this summer i can save up enough to put a sub in if the 6x9s dont thump hard enough and i get enough sound from the 6.5's. i dont want the mirror to fall off the window, just more then the stock 1977 speaker can do!


the 60Hz is a low pass filter so it plays highs and not lows? and sorry to ask thsi so many times but......gain = sensitivity?

thanks, im 20 short of getting the amp and wires i will be needing!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
everythign is answered. thanks a lot!

on my truck i think there is a wire from the floor pan to the frame it self. it runs along the frame to the front. then a wire comes off the frame and to the - side of the battery. im going to incresse teh diameter anyways JUST to be safe.

i have a 1943 m1 garand that i go hunting with. its messed my ears up more then loud music has. i know the dangers of hearing loss...you cnat hear stuff!

i would love that sub, but i got the 6x9s for free. mabey this summer i can save up enough to put a sub in if the 6x9s dont thump hard enough and i get enough sound from the 6.5's. i dont want the mirror to fall off the window, just more then the stock 1977 speaker can do!


the 60Hz is a low pass filter so it plays highs and not lows? and sorry to ask thsi so many times but......gain = sensitivity?

thanks, im 20 short of getting the amp and wires i will be needing!
If that wire looks like it's braided, that's a bonding conductor. If you have ever been at a stop light or sign next to a car or truck with a serious performance engine, you probably noticed that you suddenly had a lot of clicking noises and possibly some whining. This is because engines like these have solid spark plug wires and non-resistor plugs. Another big reason you heard the noise is that the bonding of the engine compartment was probably removed. Ford has used a metal clip that scrapes the underside of the hood when it opens and closes, as well as a braided strap cable from the block to the firewall and from the firewall to the frame. Other manufacturers use a braided strap for all of these. The reason this is needed is that newer cars and trucks have electronic systems that are much more sensitive to this kind of noise and if it's bad enough, the ECM in a fuel injected engine can be disrupted, causing improper operation or it may even shut the engine down. These straps keep the noise that comes from the engine from exiting by giving it a path to the nearest electrical ground that effectively blocks it by making the various metal parts act as one. This is known as a kind of Faraday Cage. The panels are considered to be "at equal electrical potential", which means that for the purposes of blocking this kind of noise, there's no resistance between them. Electrical potential is also known as 'voltage'.

Don't try to use these straps as electrical grounds when high current is being conducted. These straps corrode over time and on a '70s vehicle, I would consider replacing them.

I would think about getting some kind of shooter's ear protection. Some allow sound to come through normally until a sharp increase in intensity (the sound of the gunshot).
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
ya, i forgot abotu teh body mounts, but im going to replace that strap. cant rember its condition but it should be ok. its cheap so what hte hell.

i have some ear muffs, but when the deer jumps up 5 feet infont of you....

the negative cables can never to be to big, as long as there short if i understand correctly. thanks. i will have to find the "show off" section of the forms and post in there when it gets above freezing so i cna install everything!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
ya, i forgot abotu teh body mounts, but im going to replace that strap. cant rember its condition but it should be ok. its cheap so what hte hell.

i have some ear muffs, but when the deer jumps up 5 feet infont of you....

the negative cables can never to be to big, as long as there short if i understand correctly. thanks. i will have to find the "show off" section of the forms and post in there when it gets above freezing so i cna install everything!
If it's only 5' in front of you, I would think you could be able to take it down like a calf.
 
K

kainhall

Audiophyte
lol, had a friend that jumped on one and stabed it. was wonded and they left their guns in the truck!

anyway, thats man.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Here's the setup in my truck. Keep in mind that it's a regular cab Ranger so space is TIGHT.



The Alpine PDX-5 is a 4 channel plus a sub channel. It's small but puts out decent power for it's size and seems to produce a clean signal.

 
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