VTF-15 impressions...and a problem

[RipcordAFF]

So I received the VTF-15 a week ago and I have been putting it through its paces. First, I am extremely impressed with the packaging and the sub itself. It is physically very imposing and the fit and finish appears to be top notch. I personally dig the triangular design of the front grill and ports, but it definitely makes the sub stand out (so WAF might be an issue for some).

I plugged the VTF in and played a sub test track that I got years ago, a series of bass lines that bounce around from 25hz to about 70hz. My first impressions were very positive. It clearly had much more power in reserve than my MFW-15 that it is replacing. Also very apparent was the "clean" and "smooth" nature of the sound (sorry, I am terrible at describing these things). As compared to my MFW, the VTF is much more precise. Initially very pleased, I settled down to dial everything in....

That's when the problems seem to be cropping up.

My current system consists of AV123 Rockets + Emotiva XPA-5 and an Onkyo 805 in pre\pro duty. I set the VTF settings initially at 1 port open, Q7 and Eq 1. I can't REW to work properly, so I did some ghetto measurements (running one of those stepped sine curves which gives tones are regular Hz levels and taking db readings).

Without running Audyssey, I noticed that the 30-45 hz range was 10 db higher than the 50-70hz range. This obviously created a very uneven response curve. I then ran audyssey and the entire range stabilized. From 20hz to 80hz, I was getting readings within 2 dbs of each other. Very very pleased, I turned on some movies.

Immediately, I noticed that the midbass was greatly reduced. In scenes that I knew were bass heavy, there was just something missing. There was no "explosiveness", that "kick in your chest" feeling wasn't there. I could tell that the sub was doing something, there was deep bass rumble, but no mid-bass impact. Now, my first thought was "of course there isn't you dummy, your midbass was 10db hot, Audyssey tamed that down", and this was confirmed by my own db readings post-Audyssey. But I manually set the sub level in the AVR hot by 5-7 dbs, I really feel like that if I have a flat frequency response, and the sub was 5-7 dbs hotter than the mains, I should be getting much more midbass. I certainly think I was getting more from the old MFW.

Turning off the Audyssey curve returned a good deal of this midbass. But this isn't a long term solution b\c of the uneven nature of that frequency curve. Besides, I like what Audyssey does with the main speakers, so I would like to use it.

Another potential solution would be changing the sub's internal settings. I am confused here too. These two frequency response graphs, showing the potential settings of the VTF illustrate my confusion

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19683927&postcount=769

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19723811&postcount=802

The graphs show, and my initial (sans-Audyssey) frequency sweeps generally support, that 1 port, Q7, Eq1 is far and away the strongest in the deep bass. Furthermore, that configuration apparently only looses a few dbs in the midbass. That seems like the ideal configuration. A config that would supposedly give more midbass is 2 ports open, q7, eq2. But that configuration is WAY off below 20hz and only 2-3 dbs stronger in the midbass....to me, that isn't worth it.

So I am confused, I am missing the midbass slam, but my numbers, and the numbers on these graphs, don't seem to explain why. I THINK I am getting a flat response curve...but I don't think it sounds all that great..

Any thoughts?

 

[clouso]

So I received the VTF-15 a week ago and I have been putting it through its paces. First, I am extremely impressed with the packaging and the sub itself. It is physically very imposing and the fit and finish appears to be top notch. I personally dig the triangular design of the front grill and ports, but it definitely makes the sub stand out (so WAF might be an issue for some).

I plugged the VTF in and played a sub test track that I got years ago, a series of bass lines that bounce around from 25hz to about 70hz. My first impressions were very positive. It clearly had much more power in reserve than my MFW-15 that it is replacing. Also very apparent was the "clean" and "smooth" nature of the sound (sorry, I am terrible at describing these things). As compared to my MFW, the VTF is much more precise. Initially very pleased, I settled down to dial everything in....

That's when the problems seem to be cropping up.

My current system consists of AV123 Rockets + Emotiva XPA-5 and an Onkyo 805 in pre\pro duty. I set the VTF settings initially at 1 port open, Q7 and Eq 1. I can't REW to work properly, so I did some ghetto measurements (running one of those stepped sine curves which gives tones are regular Hz levels and taking db readings).

Without running Audyssey, I noticed that the 30-45 hz range was 10 db higher than the 50-70hz range. This obviously created a very uneven response curve. I then ran audyssey and the entire range stabilized. From 20hz to 80hz, I was getting readings within 2 dbs of each other. Very very pleased, I turned on some movies.

Immediately, I noticed that the midbass was greatly reduced. In scenes that I knew were bass heavy, there was just something missing. There was no "explosiveness", that "kick in your chest" feeling wasn't there. I could tell that the sub was doing something, there was deep bass rumble, but no mid-bass impact. Now, my first thought was "of course there isn't you dummy, your midbass was 10db hot, Audyssey tamed that down", and this was confirmed by my own db readings post-Audyssey. But I manually set the sub level in the AVR hot by 5-7 dbs, I really feel like that if I have a flat frequency response, and the sub was 5-7 dbs hotter than the mains, I should be getting much more midbass. I certainly think I was getting more from the old MFW.

Turning off the Audyssey curve returned a good deal of this midbass. But this isn't a long term solution b\c of the uneven nature of that frequency curve. Besides, I like what Audyssey does with the main speakers, so I would like to use it.

Another potential solution would be changing the sub's internal settings. I am confused here too. These two frequency response graphs, showing the potential settings of the VTF illustrate my confusion

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19683927&postcount=769

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19723811&postcount=802

The graphs show, and my initial (sans-Audyssey) frequency sweeps generally support, that 1 port, Q7, Eq1 is far and away the strongest in the deep bass. Furthermore, that configuration apparently only looses a few dbs in the midbass. That seems like the ideal configuration. A config that would supposedly give more midbass is 2 ports open, q7, eq2. But that configuration is WAY off below 20hz and only 2-3 dbs stronger in the midbass....to me, that isn't worth it.

So I am confused, I am missing the midbass slam, but my numbers, and the numbers on these graphs, don't seem to explain why. I THINK I am getting a flat response curve...but I don't think it sounds all that great..

Any thoughts?

you must read the ''user'' and ''quick set-up manual or brochures from HSU....you cannot put the Q on 1 or 2 depending on what tuning you want it....be carafull....just my 2 cents....

 

[jostenmeat]

Hm, that's tough. I wonder if it's simply what you have become used to, TBQH.

You know, I do a few tweaks for my DIY sub pre-Audyssey (couple of high Q, deep notch filters, as well as attempting to reduce "delay"), then I add a shelf filter post-Audyssey, starting at 20hz.

So, a story for you. I threw an NFL party last Sunday, and present were a couple of little youngsters. At the family's bequest, later on in the evening, I put some of Toy Story 3 on for them. Out of respect to their precious little ears, I lowered the volume several db from what I normally have the theater at. One of the other friends that is quite familiar with the performance of my HT asked, hey is the subwoofer on? Yes, I replied, it's just that the system is lowered by several db than what you are used to.

This is with a 5' wide, 280lbs subwoofer, dual woofers in a tapped horn, with at least a 3db shelf starting at 20hz as of right now, and he had to ask me if it was even on at say -16 db, as a ballpark guess. Well, maybe that adds perspective for both of us. This is the same guy who, during the hotel scene in Inception where Di Caprio asked "did you feel that?", blurted out, "yes!". He started laughing during the movie, because I had a drink that started rocking back n forth in the holder for one of the scenes. Yet, he had to ask if the sub was even on, when the level was only off by just several db, and TY3 does have more dramatic audio than the typical romantic comedy.

As I also use an 805 as prepro, I do wonder if my friend wouldn't have posed the question had I something like Dyn Vol/EQ or Dolby Volume.

The way I see it, unless there is some setting that is way off, either you get acclimated to the flatter response, or you need to implement EQ so that you may adjust to preference.

 

[Sputter]

So I received the VTF-15 a week ago and I have been putting it through its paces. First, I am extremely impressed with the packaging and the sub itself. It is physically very imposing and the fit and finish appears to be top notch. I personally dig the triangular design of the front grill and ports, but it definitely makes the sub stand out (so WAF might be an issue for some).

I plugged the VTF in and played a sub test track that I got years ago, a series of bass lines that bounce around from 25hz to about 70hz. My first impressions were very positive. It clearly had much more power in reserve than my MFW-15 that it is replacing. Also very apparent was the "clean" and "smooth" nature of the sound (sorry, I am terrible at describing these things). As compared to my MFW, the VTF is much more precise. Initially very pleased, I settled down to dial everything in....

That's when the problems seem to be cropping up.

My current system consists of AV123 Rockets + Emotiva XPA-5 and an Onkyo 805 in pre\pro duty. I set the VTF settings initially at 1 port open, Q7 and Eq 1. I can't REW to work properly, so I did some ghetto measurements (running one of those stepped sine curves which gives tones are regular Hz levels and taking db readings).

Without running Audyssey, I noticed that the 30-45 hz range was 10 db higher than the 50-70hz range. This obviously created a very uneven response curve. I then ran audyssey and the entire range stabilized. From 20hz to 80hz, I was getting readings within 2 dbs of each other. Very very pleased, I turned on some movies.

Immediately, I noticed that the midbass was greatly reduced. In scenes that I knew were bass heavy, there was just something missing. There was no "explosiveness", that "kick in your chest" feeling wasn't there. I could tell that the sub was doing something, there was deep bass rumble, but no mid-bass impact. Now, my first thought was "of course there isn't you dummy, your midbass was 10db hot, Audyssey tamed that down", and this was confirmed by my own db readings post-Audyssey. But I manually set the sub level in the AVR hot by 5-7 dbs, I really feel like that if I have a flat frequency response, and the sub was 5-7 dbs hotter than the mains, I should be getting much more midbass. I certainly think I was getting more from the old MFW.

Turning off the Audyssey curve returned a good deal of this midbass. But this isn't a long term solution b\c of the uneven nature of that frequency curve. Besides, I like what Audyssey does with the main speakers, so I would like to use it.

Another potential solution would be changing the sub's internal settings. I am confused here too. These two frequency response graphs, showing the potential settings of the VTF illustrate my confusion

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19683927&postcount=769

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19723811&postcount=802

The graphs show, and my initial (sans-Audyssey) frequency sweeps generally support, that 1 port, Q7, Eq1 is far and away the strongest in the deep bass. Furthermore, that configuration apparently only looses a few dbs in the midbass. That seems like the ideal configuration. A config that would supposedly give more midbass is 2 ports open, q7, eq2. But that configuration is WAY off below 20hz and only 2-3 dbs stronger in the midbass....to me, that isn't worth it.

So I am confused, I am missing the midbass slam, but my numbers, and the numbers on these graphs, don't seem to explain why. I THINK I am getting a flat response curve...but I don't think it sounds all that great..

Any thoughts?

Did you graph your setup with the MFW? How did it compare graphwise?
As you noted the deepest is Open port open with EQ1. I bounce between "sealed" and One port open.

A couple comments.
Some subs are boosted at some frequency (their EQ). eg 50hz.
Was the MFW boosted in it's curve?
A lot of people don't like flat, they choose more of house curve. You might be more house curve type of guy?
Also the 15H could be a tighter and more even sounding instead looser sounding.
Ideally, if you could compare both MFW and the 15H curves you would have a starting point to see why the difference.
I'm leaning towards the lack of a house curve as a *guess* and the MFW was boosted. You could plot a graph manually tones/paper/pen/sp meter.
However, once you have those numbers you have no way of EQing a house curve without outside EQing (to my knowledge)such as a SMS-1.

These are just random thoughts since you asked.

 

[Matt34]

This is why I love my SMS-1. Some discard it as old-tech but the manual, on-the-fly interface is where it's at.

 

[Sputter]

This is why I love my SMS-1. Some discard it as old-tech but the manual, on-the-fly interface is where it's at.

+1 Every sub owner should have one.

 

[GranteedEV]

What you're missing from the MFW-15 probably isn't "mid-bass"...

It's probably harmonic distortion.

IE if a scene has a 25hz rumble at notable levels, the HSU is probably making a 25hz rumble. The MFW-15 probably made both a 25hz rumble (less audible frequency) along with maybe a 50hz harmonic (more audible) and 100hz harmonic (much more audible).

Now go watch a movie like "How to Train your Dragon" with audessey engaged and describe what it's like.

 

[anamorphic96]

This is why I love my SMS-1. Some discard it as old-tech but the manual, on-the-fly interface is where it's at.

+2. The SMS-1 maybe a little dated. But it's one hell of a tool that makes dialing in my sub a piece of cake.

 

[krzywica]

What you're missing from the MFW-15 probably isn't "mid-bass"...

It's probably harmonic distortion.

IE if a scene has a 25hz rumble at notable levels, the HSU is probably making a 25hz rumble. The MFW-15 probably made both a 25hz rumble (less audible frequency) along with maybe a 50hz harmonic (more audible) and 100hz harmonic (much more audible).

Now go watch a movie like "How to Train your Dragon" with audessey engaged and describe what it's like.

What he said.....I sold a buddy my HSU VTF2 MK3 and was able to make a direct comparison......the distortion levels on the MFW are much higher making the MFW sound louder....

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would agree that most likely you are used to the old sub's response and you think that is the way it should sound correctly. Most likely that is not the case unless it was also properly calibrated and as flat as the new sub with the EQ on.

Also, hopefully the recording studio has their system properly EQed

 

[Warpdrv]

I would agree that most likely you are used to the old sub's response and you think that is the way it should sound correctly. Most likely that is not the case unless it was also properly calibrated and as flat as the new sub with the EQ on.

This is exactly the problem right here.....

You are now getting a flat response and your not used to it yet. All this time you have been having this inflated response which is likely a room peak, and now that its not there you feel like something is missing - but its obviously not natural. That puchy feeling is truly centered around the 30-45hz range...

Some people actually dial in a house curve to reproduce that effect for the power and punch instead of flat - its all pref, and when you have the tools to play with it and adjust it - you can have what ever kind of response you like...

In my small setup - my room also produced that same exact bump in the 30-45hz range... It has always had an effect on how I ended up preferring my bass response, I dialed it back a touch, but I still like to have that power and punch in that range to a certain degree, just not as aggressive as 10db hot, thats quite a bit.In my large setup - I have actually added in a touch of that just for the slam in the chest feeling.... Some like it some don't - its your system, you can adjust it how you like but you may not be able to get there if Audyssey takes over... An external Sub EQ like the SMS-1 would allow you to adjust it as you see fit...

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is exactly the problem right here.....

You are now getting a flat response and your not used to it yet. All this time you have been having this inflated response which is likely a room peak, and now that its not there you feel like something is missing - but its obviously not natural. That puchy feeling is truly centered around the 30-45hz range...

Some people actually dial in a house curve to reproduce that effect for the power and punch instead of flat - its all pref, and when you have the tools to play with it and adjust it - you can have what ever kind of response you like...

In my small setup - my room also produced that same exact bump in the 30-45hz range... It has always had an effect on how I ended up preferring my bass response, I dialed it back a touch, but I still like to have that power and punch in that range to a certain degree, just not as aggressive as 10db hot, thats quite a bit.In my large setup - I have actually added in a touch of that just for the slam in the chest feeling.... Some like it some don't - its your system, you can adjust it how you like but you may not be able to get there if Audyssey takes over... An external Sub EQ like the SMS-1 would allow you to adjust it as you see fit...

The problem I see with a house curve in the studio is that that curve is not standard and not published. The, the recording is recorded with that curve as the basis. At home with no info on either, the listener is at a loss what it should really sound like. This all should be standardized as the THX tried to standardize things. Then, knowing the standard, one can certainly deviate

Those humps I can almost guarantee is caused by the room and your listening position where the mic was at. I had a similar problem for a long time until I picked up that Behringer digital EQ. I had a large hump at 40, a dip at 50 on one sub, the other was worse as it was in a worst location. But, that is what happens when the room is not designed primarily for audio

I didn't like that punch much. Now it seems proper or just 'getting used to' a flatter curve

 

[krzywica]

Its all personal preference in the end and you can make your sub slam at whatever range you want with the right combination of both placement and EQ.

Personally I like my room response curve like I like my women......a nice fat peak on the bottom.....

 

[twobrat]

Hmm, concerning as i was considering this sub.

 

[RipcordAFF]

Hmm, concerning as i was considering this sub.

Twobrat, don't worry about the performance of the sub, its top-notch, I am having trouble dialing it into my particular situation. That's no-body's fault but my own! Great sub though!

 

[Warpdrv]

Its all personal preference in the end and you can make your sub slam at whatever range you want with the right combination of both placement and EQ.

I agree - start with flat and shape it how you like it... Everyone says its wrong if its not flat.....

Its funny - I have heard multiple recordings of the same material (like a live concert) and they don't sound the same. Music even in a studio goes from live to analog, to digital and there is a mixing board involved - that a person is working, changing the settings from instrument to vocals and then its recorded. who is to say that that guy wasn't hammered the night before - or at a concert that blew out his ears and changed the way things are interpreted through this recording process...

The suggestion that a recorded group is in a recording studio or even live at a venue is never going to be exactly the same as live right in front of you... of the Many Many times I have been at concerts and felt the slam of kick drums or the snap of snares or what have you - there are lots of recordings that just don't convey that same feeling / experience forward..... So its OK for some people suggest flat is the only way it should be, but there are far too many changes made from the raw material right from the get go, how is it possible for anything to ever be exact, right or perfect.... If you like a more rich snappy bass, then set it up how you like it... Its your system....

My system isn't overly heavy in that region, just a nice gentle rise - you want to see how well your system performs - check out this gun fight scene from open range on it cranked... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7t9OHJvXko

Use the original DVD or new bluray

krzywica will be more then happy to give his thoughts about that one at my house, as well as the faces of others who heard it there...

 

[clouso]

I agree - start with flat and shape it how you like it... Everyone says its wrong if its not flat.....

Its funny - I have heard multiple recordings of the same material (like a live concert) and they don't sound the same. Music even in a studio goes from live to analog, to digital and there is a mixing board involved - that a person is working, changing the settings from instrument to vocals and then its recorded. who is to say that that guy wasn't hammered the night before - or at a concert that blew out his ears and changed the way things are interpreted through this recording process...

The suggestion that a recorded group is in a recording studio or even live at a venue is never going to be exactly the same as live right in front of you... of the Many Many times I have been at concerts and felt the slam of kick drums or the snap of snares or what have you - there are lots of recordings that just don't convey that same feeling / experience forward..... So its OK for some people suggest flat is the only way it should be, but there are far too many changes made from the raw material right from the get go, how is it possible for anything to ever be exact, right or perfect.... If you like a more rich snappy bass, then set it up how you like it... Its your system....

My system isn't overly heavy in that region, just a nice gentle rise - you want to see how well your system performs - check out this gun fight scene from open range on it cranked... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7t9OHJvXko

Use the original DVD or new bluray

krzywica will be more then happy to give his thoughts about that one at my house, as well as the faces of others who heard it there...

Wow didnt see that movie yet...must get it in blu-ray..........

 

[Warpdrv]

Wow didnt see that movie yet...must get it in blu-ray..........

Its an old movie, its not the greatest western in the world, but that scene - with the right system will blow you away - sounds like your in a real gun range with my setup...

 

[zhimbo]

Its an old movie

2003 is "old"?

 

[clouso]

Its an old movie, its not the greatest western in the world, but that scene - with the right system will blow you away - sounds like your in a real gun range with my setup...

I bet everything sounds great on your setup! lol.....but im getting there slowly.....lol.