Got My Panny PTAE4000!

[GO-NAD!]

Well. Ok, the idea of trying it again for the wife, but with 24p engaged (and maybe another tweak or calibration or two) is so that the pic might look smoother. It WILL look smoother. By not taking advantage of the natural playback speed of film, you have introduced judder into your playback, and you had more judder than you needed to during you viewing. Ok, try it again just yourself before you have her sit through something again.

I don't know how good Shrek looks. Pick your demo material carefully, if passing the WAF with screen size is of importance to you. I am chock full of suggestions if you need any, but you should give me a category.

Having components cramped seems to be a very, very small compromise for the ideal video immersion.

It also seems to be a very small compromise for better acoustics. It's just a matter of ideal spread at this point too, but 7" is PRETTY darn close to sidewall, and in such case, I would deem large panels right next to the speakers as mandatory.

TBH, I am considering for the first time getting behind the wall again, to move all three speakers behind the AT material as an experiment.



I don't know. I sorta doubt it. My guess* would be distilled water with MF, but I would run searches at the official forum, or just ask directly. I am sure there are more solutions that can be used depending on the exact nature of the stain or damage.

Shrek looked pretty good, but I'm not sure that animation should be the reference for judging PQ, since animated movies will be in the minority for viewing. It became the first demo only because my daughter asked for it.
I absolutely need to pick something else to view and do some calibrating prior to making a final decision. Actually, my wife had no complaints about picture quality - it was along the lines of "it just doesn't need to be that big".

If you have some recommendations for reference demo material, please shoot! SWMBO likes chick flics (of course ) and light comedies. She also likes some action movies. I haven't seen the latest James Bond movies, with Daniel Craig. How do they look?

As for SQ, I agree with you, that components being a bit cramped behind the screen, would be preferable to having the mains so close to the wall.

My big mistake was to tell her about the THX recommmended viewing angle. She's using that as ammuntion to back a smaller screen size. I think I'll take another look at moving the couch back some more, if possible. That'll give me some more leeway. It's pretty darn close to 90 degrees with the surrounds now, so I can't move back much further. Later, I'll bring up the subject of in-ceiling back surrounds to regain a bit of the audio immersion. I mentioned that to you guys a little while ago, but not to you-know-who. One battle at a time.

As an aside, yesterday I returned the old digital cable STB to our cable provider in exchange for a HD-DVR (Motorola DCX-3400) and installed it. I flicked through a few HD channels and the sports channels look fantastic! I came across "True Lies" on AMCHD and it looked, well...meh...Not sure that conversion to HD was a big success. Maybe BD would look better.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You likely used the numbers from the THX online viewing distance calculator which shows the THX recommended viewing distance which was somewhat based off of theater viewing, not home theater viewing.

The Wikipedia entry on viewing distance is a bit more current with viewing distance shown as a range from about 28 degrees to 40 degrees as THX recommended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance

I would not listen to ANYONE who has any opinion on the first date. That is, you have lived with 40"-60" displays (most likely) in your home for a while. So, the jump to a true cinematic experience within your home is a new thing. Going to that level of immersion takes some time to get used to and the first time is always going to be the one that is most difficult to get used to.

I don't live in the world of SWMBO, as my wife does object from time to time, but at the end of the day, my wife KNOWS that I've done my homework and she knows diddly about A/V other than she likes her shows, and she prefers them in HD (after I properly trained her on that). It really is up to you how you handle your screen size, but it should be a well thought out decision by you with minimal input from your wife if she isn't willing to put a couple of weeks time into viewing and adapting to a large screen.

I have consistently talked my clients into larger screens than they have originally wanted and not one has complained - and almost every single one has actually thanked me. But, really, the difference between 100" and 108" is not nearly that much. It's like a 54" display vs. a 50" display. It just isn't that big of an overall jump in size. Pick a happy medium and be happy if that's what works for you.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You likely used the numbers from the THX online viewing distance calculator which shows the THX recommended viewing distance which was somewhat based off of theater viewing, not home theater viewing.

The Wikipedia entry on viewing distance is a bit more current with viewing distance shown as a range from about 28 degrees to 40 degrees as THX recommended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance

I would not listen to ANYONE who has any opinion on the first date. That is, you have lived with 40"-60" displays (most likely) in your home for a while. So, the jump to a true cinematic experience within your home is a new thing. Going to that level of immersion takes some time to get used to and the first time is always going to be the one that is most difficult to get used to.

I don't live in the world of SWMBO, as my wife does object from time to time, but at the end of the day, my wife KNOWS that I've done my homework and she knows diddly about A/V other than she likes her shows, and she prefers them in HD (after I properly trained her on that). It really is up to you how you handle your screen size, but it should be a well thought out decision by you with minimal input from your wife if she isn't willing to put a couple of weeks time into viewing and adapting to a large screen.

I have consistently talked my clients into larger screens than they have originally wanted and not one has complained - and almost every single one has actually thanked me. But, really, the difference between 100" and 108" is not nearly that much. It's like a 54" display vs. a 50" display. It just isn't that big of an overall jump in size. Pick a happy medium and be happy if that's what works for you.

Excellent! Thanks for that link! I have material for a 108" screen and it would kill me to cut it. I went directly to the THX website and found that for a cinema, the recommended viewing angle of 36 degrees applies to the rearmost seat, whereas for a HT, the recommended angle is 40 degrees, or screen size divided by 0.84. That will give me more ammo in this discussion. I realize that 100" to 108" isn't a huge difference, but it is definitely noticeable.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Excellent! Thanks for that link! I have material for a 108" screen and it would kill me to cut it. I went directly to the THX website and found that for a cinema, the recommended viewing angle of 36 degrees applies to the rearmost seat, whereas for a HT, the recommended angle is 40 degrees, or screen size divided by 0.84. That will give me more ammo in this discussion. I realize that 100" to 108" isn't a huge difference, but it is definitely noticeable.

Actually, 36 degrees is to the center seats in a typical movie theater. This is usually 1.5x the screen width. So, you have seats at the back of the theater which are about 28 degrees and seats more towards the front which are 40 degrees and beyond. With a range of 28 degrees (max seating distance) to 40 degrees (closest seating distance) you have quite a range, but within a few inches of 36 degrees is usually where I recommend. But, I push for a size between 36 and 40 degrees most of the time.

 

[jostenmeat]

If you have some recommendations for reference demo material, please shoot! SWMBO likes chick flics (of course ) and light comedies. She also likes some action movies. I haven't seen the latest James Bond movies, with Daniel Craig. How do they look?

None of these are best in class (reference) for me, but they are still of very high quality: Bond movies look very good, recommended. Light comedy, I think of Bottle Rocket, but it's rather quirky. I was still giddy the day after, but I know of others who will literally fall asleep watching it. Big Trouble in Little China is a superb transfer. Chick flicks, I can't think of any that are top notch. Mmaybe you'd have to be more specific on that one (I'm thinking romantic comedies, but not dramas you see). Ratatouille still is probably #1 in PQ for me. It's a pain to skip 10 previews, and deal with a more cumbersome BD menu on that one, but it's still #1.

Besides enabling 24p at both ends, for just a super quickie calibration, I'd fiddle with just contrast and brightness for now (going back n forth to both a couple of times, as one affects the other). Leave color, gamma, and that stuff for when things are done. Good contrast means shadow detail means a totally different cinematic experience than what 99% of the world even knows is possible.

My big mistake was to tell her about the THX recommmended viewing angle. She's using that as ammuntion to back a smaller screen size. I think I'll take another look at moving the couch back some more, if possible. That'll give me some more leeway. It's pretty darn close to 90 degrees with the surrounds now, so I can't move back much further. Later, I'll bring up the subject of in-ceiling back surrounds to regain a bit of the audio immersion. I mentioned that to you guys a little while ago, but not to you-know-who. One battle at a time.

I spent a LOT of time fiddling with viewing angle over the years, and I've been pretty much stuck on 42 as the ideal. I might be at a tad bit less than that right now, and it wouldn't surprise me as I wouldn't mind a yet slightly bigger viewing angle TBQH.

As an aside, yesterday I returned the old digital cable STB to our cable provider in exchange for a HD-DVR (Motorola DCX-3400) and installed it. I flicked through a few HD channels and the sports channels look fantastic! I came across "True Lies" on AMCHD and it looked, well...meh...Not sure that conversion to HD was a big success. Maybe BD would look better.

If there is an ATSC tuner in anything you have, and that you don't already rely upon it, I like having an antenna for the best signal you can get. Oh wait I think we already talked about this. If I was to pay for cable, the first thing Id find out is I absolutely needed to use a cable card, and how high those prices are now, because Id want to get a Tivo. Well, it would depend on the provider in question, but I guess Id still want a tivo. For certain providers, absolutely get the tivo, for others not as pressing of an issue.

edit: oh yeah, regarding BMXs comparison of screen sizes to 50/54, that in fact is the identical comparison. Both scenarios results in a 17% increase in display size.

 

[just-some-guy]

my wife thought i was crazy for getting the 65", and said it was big enough.
she said i was insane for getting the projector.
she is plenty happy with it now. she just had to get used to it and see just how good it really was.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Actually, 36 degrees is to the center seats in a typical movie theater. This is usually 1.5x the screen width. So, you have seats at the back of the theater which are about 28 degrees and seats more towards the front which are 40 degrees and beyond. With a range of 28 degrees (max seating distance) to 40 degrees (closest seating distance) you have quite a range, but within a few inches of 36 degrees is usually where I recommend. But, I push for a size between 36 and 40 degrees most of the time.

Maybe they've changed their recommendations or maybe I've read it wrong, but this is what I got from the THX website:

http://www.thx.com/professional/cinema-certification/thx-certified-cinema-screen-placement/

and this:

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/hdtv-set-up/


I don't want to pick any nits - I appreciate your help and the link you provided prompted me to dig deeper. I have a sanctioned reference now to stay with the 108" screen. I had a meeting last night, so I didn't get a chance to discuss it with her. I did adjust the image back to 108" when she wasn't looking. The screen is still temporarily tacked to the false wall and we'll have to watch another movie this weekend, after I make some adjustments. I've been pretty successful in the past with persuading her to see things my way, when it comes to my audio/HT obsession. I feel pretty confident I can convince her again....I hope....

 

[GO-NAD!]

None of these are best in class (reference) for me, but they are still of very high quality: Bond movies look very good, recommended. Light comedy, I think of Bottle Rocket, but it's rather quirky. I was still giddy the day after, but I know of others who will literally fall asleep watching it. Big Trouble in Little China is a superb transfer. Chick flicks, I can't think of any that are top notch. Mmaybe you'd have to be more specific on that one (I'm thinking romantic comedies, but not dramas you see). Ratatouille still is probably #1 in PQ for me. It's a pain to skip 10 previews, and deal with a more cumbersome BD menu on that one, but it's still #1.

Thanks for the recommendations! I was looking forward to seeing those Bond flics and refused to watch them before I had a PJ setup. I never heard of the comedies you listed, but I'll check 'em out. I don't think I can be more specific about chick flics, since I don't care for them. I'll have to ask what she'd like to see and then inquire about BD PQ. I really liked Ratatouilleactually, and I think I'll pick that one up. I know what you mean about previews.

Besides enabling 24p at both ends, for just a super quickie calibration, I'd fiddle with just contrast and brightness for now (going back n forth to both a couple of times, as one affects the other). Leave color, gamma, and that stuff for when things are done. Good contrast means shadow detail means a totally different cinematic experience than what 99% of the world even knows is possible.

Yeah, I'll be sure to do that before the next movie.

If there is an ATSC tuner in anything you have, and that you don't already rely upon it, I like having an antenna for the best signal you can get. Oh wait I think we already talked about this. If I was to pay for cable, the first thing Id find out is I absolutely needed to use a cable card, and how high those prices are now, because Id want to get a Tivo. Well, it would depend on the provider in question, but I guess Id still want a tivo. For certain providers, absolutely get the tivo, for others not as pressing of an issue.

Having had cable for umpteen years, I have no idea what I have available OTA these days. I've heard of the Tivo, but since it is just a recent arrival in Canada, I'm not really familiar with it. I did a quick search to find out what the deal is and it appears to be pretty similar to my DVR, although it appears to be a bit more sophisticated.

Thanks again!

 

[AVRat]

For a CF review, I'd suggest Eat, Pray, Love. The visuals and scenery were pretty stunning.

 

[jostenmeat]

For a CF review, I'd suggest Eat, Pray, Love. The visuals and scenery were pretty stunning.

Thanks for the rec, I will check it out. What does CF stand for?

Thanks for the recommendations! I was looking forward to seeing those Bond flics and refused to watch them before I had a PJ setup. I never heard of the comedies you listed, but I'll check 'em out. I don't think I can be more specific about chick flics, since I don't care for them. I'll have to ask what she'd like to see and then inquire about BD PQ. I really liked Ratatouilleactually, and I think I'll pick that one up. I know what you mean about previews.

While Big Trouble has comedic elements, I'm not sure that it would be categorized in comedies. Juno and Zombieland look good when compared to their peers. The latter was particularly hilarious to me. I suppose Julie and Julia (did I get that right) looked pretty good, and I think it may qualify for chick flick. I quite enjoyed it too, even if some reviews are mixed.

Having had cable for umpteen years, I have no idea what I have available OTA these days. I've heard of the Tivo, but since it is just a recent arrival in Canada, I'm not really familiar with it. I did a quick search to find out what the deal is and it appears to be pretty similar to my DVR, although it appears to be a bit more sophisticated.

Didn't I link these for you before already?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=59

Tivo is basically a gloried DVR that can stream youtube amazon netflix etc. You can program it from remote locations. The key benefit is that it will actually work well, unlike with say, um, time warner CRAPBOXES. Then you have to figure how much the box rentals are. Sometimes I hear people say it's only $5, sometimes I hear $20. The Tivo is a one time purchase, well, say for a lifetime on the unit. If at $20 a month, then you could pay it off within two years, perhaps, and after that it's all money in the pocket, and the kicker is that you've been using a better and more capable unit all along.

I'm pretty sure tivos have atsc tuners, and IIRC, a pro CI I know used to keep an old VCR just for its tuner. That's why I said you might have it somewhere among your various components.

Well, unfortunately, providers caught wind about how much they're losing out on overpriced rentals of their crapboxes. So they jacked up cable card fees big time, where it's not as financially reasonable to go with an aftermarket box. I know that TW used to charge only $2 a month for it before, but I'm afraid they may have jacked that up over 500%, if not a lot more in fact. That's why I said what I did previously. See if the CC is a must, and if so, how much the fee is.

Thanks again!

You're welcome.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Maybe they've changed their recommendations or maybe I've read it wrong, but this is what I got from the THX website:

http://www.thx.com/professional/cinema-certification/thx-certified-cinema-screen-placement/

and this:

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/hdtv-set-up/

I've paced off a few screens at commercial theaters and 36 degrees works out to about 1.5x viewing distance from screen width, and this is what most theaters tend to go with other than IMAX.

I did just see a similarly written document that showed center seating at 36 degrees and rear seats at 28 degrees in a theater with THX stamped on it as well, so perhaps something has slipped at some point or been updated. Who knows?

Anyway, the home viewing distance is accurate with the 40 degree number as the close point and allows for it to be a bit less for further viewing.

All I know is that I want the 85" Panasonic in my family room because it's to hard to see the 60" Pioneer from the kitchen!

 

[BMXTRIX]

Thanks for the rec, I will check it out. What does CF stand for?

Chick Flick

I would go with Mama-Mia which is a bit more fun than other CFs I've been dragged into.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1786/mammamiamovie.html

I wouldn't take any pro reviewers rating as being worth the bytes it is printed in. It's entertaining enough for guys and the girls tend to love it.

Also, you can do a sort by differnt star ratings of quality from High Def Digest, including video quality...
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/reviews_video.html

 

[GO-NAD!]

Didn't I link these for you before already?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=59

I have no recollection of that. Anyway, I checked it out. I get the same 4 channels OTA that I was getting 20 years ago. I don't think they're HD.

Tivo is basically a gloried DVR that can stream youtube amazon netflix etc. You can program it from remote locations. The key benefit is that it will actually work well, unlike with say, um, time warner CRAPBOXES. Then you have to figure how much the box rentals are. Sometimes I hear people say it's only $5, sometimes I hear $20. The Tivo is a one time purchase, well, say for a lifetime on the unit. If at $20 a month, then you could pay it off within two years, perhaps, and after that it's all money in the pocket, and the kicker is that you've been using a better and more capable unit all along.

I'm pretty sure tivos have atsc tuners, and IIRC, a pro CI I know used to keep an old VCR just for its tuner. That's why I said you might have it somewhere among your various components.

Well, unfortunately, providers caught wind about how much they're losing out on overpriced rentals of their crapboxes. So they jacked up cable card fees big time, where it's not as financially reasonable to go with an aftermarket box. I know that TW used to charge only $2 a month for it before, but I'm afraid they may have jacked that up over 500%, if not a lot more in fact. That's why I said what I did previously. See if the CC is a must, and if so, how much the fee is.

This is something I just came across at another forum:

"I have used TiVo in Ontario since it initially was released here. I personally am a huge fan of the service and much prefer it to the PVRs offered by local providers. Largely, in my opinion, despite the fees I find the user interface is far superior and features like the season pass are wonderful . There is an annual fee which works out to about $10 per month to use the service.

However we are limited as the only unit which are compatible with Canadian providers is the basic dual tuner box. The HD boxes and the premier service are not compatible or sold here as they require a cable card to function and our cable providers do not use cable cards. Thus if you want HD you are out of luck.

Also the hard drive which it comes with is only 80GB which is on the small side if you record a lot. However you can find replacement hard drives online to upgrade to. I bought a 500GB drive just after I bought the unit and installed it myself quite easily (which means anyone could do it).

You can purchase a feature called TiVo Desktop Plus (about $25 one time) which allows you to convert a show you have recorded to a format compatible with Iphones, Ipod touches, Blackberry etc.

You do still need a cable box to use TiVo as it does not replace the box it works with it."

Looks like it won't be worth it for me right now. We'll see what the future holds....

 

[GO-NAD!]

I've paced off a few screens at commercial theaters and 36 degrees works out to about 1.5x viewing distance from screen width, and this is what most theaters tend to go with other than IMAX.

I did just see a similarly written document that showed center seating at 36 degrees and rear seats at 28 degrees in a theater with THX stamped on it as well, so perhaps something has slipped at some point or been updated. Who knows?

Anyway, the home viewing distance is accurate with the 40 degree number as the close point and allows for it to be a bit less for further viewing.

All I know is that I want the 85" Panasonic in my family room because it's to hard to see the 60" Pioneer from the kitchen!

Well, I convinced her to see things my way, as expected. So, I took a few more measurements and determined that at 108", the top of the screen would be a bit too close to the ceiling for comfort. I wasn't able to paint the ceiling black - it's flat light grey - so reflection is certainly there, though not extreme. Therefore, I settled on 104". It only takes a couple of inches off the height, but it's something anyway. I'll see if I can negotiate a darker ceiling colour at a later date. I cut my screen frame boards to rough length, ripped them to 3 1/2" width and put a 45 degree chamfer on the edges. If I'm left alone long enough over the weekend, I'll complete the screen assembly.

 

[jostenmeat]

GN, I believe this was the last time I gave you those links:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=764080&postcount=61

Regarding the ceiling darkness, how about a fade? Rather dark for the first few feet from screen, then fade it lighter and lighter with distance. Not that I can tell you the proper technique, but it was something I did think about at one point.

 

[GO-NAD!]

GN, I believe this was the last time I gave you those links:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=764080&postcount=61

Regarding the ceiling darkness, how about a fade? Rather dark for the first few feet from screen, then fade it lighter and lighter with distance. Not that I can tell you the proper technique, but it was something I did think about at one point.

That tells you what kind of memory I have! Thanks again.

Yeah, fading in different colours has crossed my mind as well. Might make it more palatable to head office.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Finally! After striving to get to this point for almost four months of renovating, I've reached the ultimate goal of having my projector installed, the false wall up and covered, and the screen completed.

Now comes the fiddling and tweaking and calibrating and...well, you get the picture. Speaking of which, I need to get some pics posted. All in due time...

There is still trim work to be done, but there isn't the same degree of urgency to get that part done.