Entry Level high end - 7.5k complete audio sys. - Songtower QWT sys w/Onkyo NR3008 or

[GranteedEV]

Thanks for batting those ideas around and narrowing this down. I called Mr. Salk and Rythmik today. After being told driver and crossover quality get much of the credit and that lack of distributorships permits them to use better components, I then wondered whether paying an independent pro labor + a high-end driver/crossover kit (followed by a finish carpenter) is a realistic option or a recipe for an unhappy ending. Already too many choices and that sounds a bit risky without looking into it. Lots of expense in materials and labor go into finished products so the retail prices are understandable - I don't like them, but they're understandable.

Getting a woodworker to do it won't save you any money - guys like Jim Salk and Jeff Permanian sell their speakers at amazing value. If you want to save that money you have to actually DIY. OTOH wiht a sub you might wanna consider it.

Three songtowers + refinished Rythmik FV15HP takes me around 4350 while three triple 8HTs + Rythmik without any refinishing are at 4500.

A Rythmik could not keep up with the JTRs. It would likely bow out around 95db while the JTRs wouldn't even have gotten started yet. If you get JTRs I think you would soon fall in love with how clean they are at loud volumes and just be dissapointed in the rythmik. I think Funkywaves, SVS, JTR, Seaton, and Danley will have better subwoofer options for you. All make excellent subs. I'm not saying you'll listen at 100db, but even at 80db, you'll hear the clarity of uncompressed 100db peaks.

Can the Salks simply not get there in my room on 140W/ch? Would dedicated amps within the budget substantially improve one or the other of these options and make it a "clear" choice?

Both the JTRs and Salks are easy amplifier loads. So no. The Salks may be able to squeeze out an extra db or two with a 250W/ch amp but that's about it.

THe reality is the salks are just driver limited - not enough air can be displaced before you start to heat up the voice coils and stress the motor. It's not a knock on salk speakers as they're really good but i think they're better for a relaxing evening in the family room than any tour-de-force.

JTRs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWznxY4CmI4

 

[digicidal]

I think I've seen that video 20X now and it still makes me chuckle when the zoom starts rolling back. That being said (and even factoring the incredibly low WAF constraints I have) those are just never going to be allowed in my livingroom.

QYOT - don't misconstrue the above to be a knock on the JTRs... I think the video says it all as far as their abilities - since I know there's just a smidgen more air volume in an open field that there is in your livingroom.

It's really too bad that you can't find someone in your area that has a pair of the SongTowers as I think with the levels you mention that you might find them acceptable - but I could be wrong. It's not meant to be derrogatory in any way to many of the (much more knowledgable than I) experts on this site like Grant and others - but sometimes I feel that some of us (and I put myself in this category) have significantly smaller demands on hearing the absolute pinnacle of dynamic range possible in our listening spaces than others.

I have pretty 'delicate' ears I think - thus my reason for not actually liking most live music. OK, that's not true, I love live music - I just don't like the volume levels most of the time. A jazz ensemble in a cozy bar or club setting is great (but I'm one of those people that likes to follow that up with some Morbid Angel followed by some Mozart) but I wind up using ear plugs all the time... which takes most of the fun out of it IMHO.

The volume levels you mention are more along the lines of what I usually enjoy - and although I don't know that the Salks would be enough for you - if your house is in a very quiet location (and from the description I assume it is) you should have a very low ambient level and might be happy with a little less headroom than something like the JTRs provide.

I definitely second the suggestion (I think made by KEW but not sure) of seeing if perhaps you could borrow a pair of the Paradigms for a weekend test. I totally understand GranteedEV's suggestion and I'm sure the sound would be fantastic in your space - with no limitations whatsoever... but I also understand that we're talking about a ~$1M home here (at least I assume so if you're putting close to $500K into it this year and still having it only be "partially furnished") so I can also understand not wanting what looks like a PA system scattered around your livingroom as well.

EDIT: I felt perhaps I should qualify that opinion of the JTRs further by saying that if they were going in a dedicated home theater room - it would pretty much be a no-brainer... but then again I would tell you that you probably want to put in an insulated drop-ceiling first to lower the height by 50%. In a room that you frequently do things OTHER than listening to music and watching movies... aesthetics are indeed a significant consideration - as is physical size of the speakers employed... since you *might* just want to put some other furniture in the room as well.

 

[jp_over]

JTRs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWznxY4CmI4

That is unbelievable!

 

[GranteedEV]

EDIT: I felt perhaps I should qualify that opinion of the JTRs further by saying that if they were going in a dedicated home theater room - it would pretty much be a no-brainer... but then again I would tell you that you probably want to put in an insulated drop-ceiling first to lower the height by 50%. In a room that you frequently do things OTHER than listening to music and watching movies... aesthetics are indeed a significant consideration - as is physical size of the speakers employed... since you *might* just want to put some other furniture in the room as well.

While it will always have a rugged, boxy look, JTR allows you to essentially do any custom veneer you want:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19640101&postcount=2752

So it's not like you're restricted to the quick n easy truck bed liner that you see in that video. Honestly, I think the Cherry Quintuple as shown there is rather attractive as is the Black Oak - and those are more commonplace veneer choices.

Anyways I just want to point out that while the JTRs can have virtually no limits in loudness when properly amplified, don't confuse that as being a mediocre or average PA speaker. It will definitely sound great plain and simple. Maybe lose out on those little microdetails but I don't think the Songtower would have those either.

 

[Warpdrv]

I have yet to hear the JTR's.....

Have you auditioned them GranteedEV....?

I heard the Catalysts, and I think both Mark and Jeff have similar ideas here and they collaborate with each other on their designs.....

The Catalysts incredibly loud as well, but they are very smooth, detailed and accurate. I would imagine the JTR's are quite similar, I'll have a get a chance to go down to Chicago and check them out....

 

[KEW]

Not sure if your room is completely finished or not. I get the general impression that it is acoustically pretty "live" and thought I'd toss this out for your consideration. May or may not be an option depending on your decor, but my wife isn't game for treatments and I've pretty well decided that I'll at least get some acoustic wallpaper up when I next move. In the context of building costs, it was pretty reasonable when I looked at pricing.

http://commercialwallcovering.com/DesignCenter/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=620_590

Note: the link is simply to the first one that came up in Google, I don't know of any significant differences between brands/products.

(if you end up with those JTR's-or Seatons, I suspect you'll need something to tame them a bit!)

 

[GranteedEV]

I have yet to hear the JTR's.....

Have you auditioned them GranteedEV....?

I wish! I wonder if anyone in Canada even owns a pair.

(if you end up with those JTR's-or Seatons, I suspect you'll need something to tame them a bit!

The 8" JTRs and Salks would probably both require well-treated rooms. It's the reality of any speaker where radiation patterns are not very uniform. Both are anechoically rather flat speakers from what I've seen but the issue is that they're box speakers.

Here's something that's always worth a read even if you've read it before:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm

 

[digicidal]

So it's not like you're restricted to the quick n easy truck bed liner that you see in that video. Honestly, I think the Cherry Quintuple as shown there is rather attractive as is the Black Oak - and those are more commonplace veneer choices.

I too think that the Cherry is very beautiful - I also thought the American Walnut finish was very attractive. However, it didn't change the footprint of the speaker any. Everyone has as different aesthetic preferrences as they do of sound (well, actually much moreso since most people will like a truly good speaker - but most people cannot ever agree on what constitutues 'good design').

I'm guessing that in order to sound even close to their best (without treating the hell out of a room that is essentially hardwoods and glass everywhere) that they would need to be placed pretty well into the room itself - but I could be totally wrong about that. I was mostly just hearing my own WAF alarm going off when I looked at the JTRs because I could almost hear her voice saying "those are going where in my livingroom"? Where as I know she thinks the much more dimunitive Salks are beautiful and deserving of being on display.

Not saying that with a proper demo and the right selection of music (hers) or movies (ditto) that she wouldn't suddenly pull a 180 and demand that we get rid of more furniture so the JTRs would have more 'room to breathe'.

It is a tightrope that we walk sometimes...

EDIT: Actually I think I was exaggerating the scope of those JTRs in the pictures I've seen. (Of course the triple-12s would still be pretty big). Actually they'd be pretty good if you had removeable grills that could be placed on for 'special occasions' and then taken off easily for normal HT duty. It's the naked driver look that makes them "PA-ish" - but I can tell just by looking at the setups and budgets involved that they cannot sound anything like a PA speaker - they must sound sweet! Maybe someday.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Getting a woodworker to do it won't save you any money - guys like Jim Salk and Jeff Permanian sell their speakers at amazing value. If you want to save that money you have to actually DIY. OTOH wiht a sub you might wanna consider it.

I think it can save a tremendous amount of time and money! Especially if you're producing multiple pieces or aren't a flawless woodworker and finisher.

Jeff from JTR is literally a one man show/company. He doesn't physically "make" anything. However he does assemble all of the pieces to the speaker himself. I know this because I called him a few weeks ago and asked him.

He has the cabinets for all of his speakers manufactured to order. I also believe the drivers are off the shelf and not actually specially designed or made by Jeff. That part I could be wrong about, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely. Perhaps I will by one and dissect it in a few weeks.

Jeff's a nice guy who truly cares about offering those who purchase his speakers as high a value as one can get from a one-off speaker builder. There are yins and yangs to that value proposition, sure, but he's going to go places if he's business savvy.

 

[JAC]

system ideas 4 U

Very Interesting thread

 

[Swerd]

There are a few ideas mentioned in this thread that I believe may lead the original poster to the wrong conclusions.

Room Size
The OP's room size is clearly large. But the large volume coming from the high ceilings may not cause as much problems as others have suggested. Overall room volume is important for low bass frequencies, roughly under 80-100 Hz, but for the rest of the audio frequencies, distance between the listener and the speakers is equally if not more important.

The higher ceilings may even help by making the floor/ceiling bounce artifact smaller or less noticeable in the bass range.

SongTowers I've heard in one large high-ceiling room had no problems at all with high volume sound. They were driven by an Outlaw amp with 125 wpc.

Salk Songsub design
As far as I know there is no design problem with the Salk SongSub. Where is this information coming from? If I remember correctly, the AH subwoofer shootout may have mentioned a design difference in the SongSub that may have led AH to exclude it from its planned shootout.

The SongSub, unlike most subs with ported cabinets, has large diameter passive radiators instead. The advantage is that bass cabinets with passive radiators achieve similar low frequency tuning that ported cabinets can do, while avoiding the possibility of any port noise. The disadvantage is the extra cost. This is not a design flaw, but it may have caused AH to exclude it from their subwoofer comparisons.