Entry Level high end - 7.5k complete audio sys. - Songtower QWT sys w/Onkyo NR3008 or

[qyot]

Seeking advice to weed out mistakes/weak links. Shooting for entry level high end with a budget of 7.5k for everything - fronts, center(s), sub(s), surrounds, receiver, audio library i/f, amp(s), cables, etc. May need to drive with AVR for now and possibly shift to dedicated amps later on this budget?

Difficult room is 20'x24'x20' high, pine plank floor, pine plank ceiling, exposed timber/steel plate beams, soft items (large area rugs, furniture, 6/24 windows w/ thin pleated shades). Side walls 2x6 w/ 6" roll insul., floor 24" deep truss w/ 12" blown insul. & ceiling 2x10 w/ 9" roll insul. South wall with 55" LCD, fronts, center(s), sub(s) is 24' with four 3' x 6' windows. West wall 20' w/ four 3'x6' windows stacked over four 3'x6' windows. North wall w/ six doors w/ 2'4"x 6' glass below six 3'x6' windows - room walkway is along this North wall. East wall open to similar sized 20'x24'x20' high dining area where living/dinging rooms are separated by 6' x 12' x 20' high limestone, sheet metal and glass fireplace extending from South wall.

Music first, HT in close second. Prefer high fidelity music (real, faithful vocal reproduction, crisp, good clarity and good mid and low bass) for day-to-day music and TV, wide range of music (from acappella to club/dance, N-I-N/Ministry to Enya, classical to Jem) plus action/animation HT on weekends. I do like accurate, purposeful (as opposed to a muddy mess of) mid and low bass for a full and complete sound in both music and home theater. Sometimes I like to turn music/action movies up, but mainly reasonable volumes. I thought Klipch and Paradigm in my price range were OK, but to my ears it seems that they're designed to shine primarily at high to uncomfortablely(drunk party) high dB. Prefer WiFi HDMI 1.4 AVR.

Search led me to Salk Songtower QWT, Polk LSi 15/25 or Magnepan 1.7 systems around 5k +/- and Onkyo TX-NR3008 or Pioneer Elite SC-37 at 1.3 to 1.4k. I am a 6 hour drive from listening to any of these so I'm relying on reviews.

Sound is most important, but refined appearance is a sizable factor since everything will be on display in this exceedingly well-lit room. Matching Songtower system in curly maple leads in the looks dept and, according to reviews, in the sound dept. equating Songtower QWTs + Songsub at 3k to LSi25s (or LSi 15's + sub) at 2.8k. However, I heard there's a design problem with the Songsub - not sure what it is. The LSi and Songtower centers look undersized, which Polk admits. There are probably other problems with my plans and my room and that's where I welcome all advice on components, cables, placement, floor stands or wall or wood beam mounts, where to purchase and anything else. I worry that Songtower system is undersized for the room volume and that no high end system will sound very good in the room. Having a carpenter cover speakers (e.g. a sub or B&W vinyl 683) in curly maple is possible, but original quality sound/appearance is preferred. Thanks for pondering and even more thanks for advising.

 

[jp_over]

Excellent 1st post. Welcome!

I'll limit my comments to the two items I've most recently looked into. I literally just sent Jim Salk an e-mail about ordering my SongTower QWTs + SongCenter. If you do much searching, you'll see that for the price it's hard to beat these speakers. My priority is music with a close second of vocal clarity for TV/news dialogue. I understand the mid-range on these is uber-clear of any speaker at this price point. Of note, I'm purchasing these without an audition (as have a few others that I've read about). Not that I recommend this, but such is the strong reputation the SongTowers have. Because I'm military and I move every few years, I wanted speakers that are forgiving of poor rooms. Jim said this pair fits the bill. Pretty honest guy since these are among his least expensive models. He didn't try to sell me the most expensive cat in the bag but rather gave me good advice based on my needs/requirement.

Second, I also considered a Salk sub but the reviews (many in this community) led me to SVS. In fact, if you check out the following link you can find some great info on subwoofer reviews:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers

Good luck with your search. I'm sure some of the heavy hitters will weigh in with more info on room acoustics and such.

 

[KEW]

Welcome to Audioholics and congratulations for posting one of the most well thought out "first posts" I have seen (not that there is a real problem with lesser "first posts" - we all have to start somewhere)!

I think your concerns and reservations about the size of the room are well founded.

Have you listened to anything in your room? I can't help you directly as I have no experience with such a large room. I believe Warpdrv has a room of similar dimensions and know he has Paradigm S-8's.
Your comment about the Paradigms makes me wonder. It sounds like they didn't seem to come alive (in the room you were listening to them in) until they were too loud. One take on that is they may need to be driven that hard in your room to achieve a normal level. I guess I might be inclined, if you have a decent Paradigm dealer, to see about bringing a loaner demo stereo system home for a Sunday (since they are likely closed, they won't miss their gear) to get a sense of the differences between your room and their showroom. You may have to "buy" the gear and get refunded upon return. (My dealer did this and revealed after I returned the gear that he had not processed the transaction on my credit card). In any case, I think your situation is unique enough that you should get some "in room" experience up front. Of course, if you feel like you are abusing the Paradigm dealer (if you decide you don't like the Paradigms), you can always buy a disc player or amp from them as a token gratuity.

On the Salks, I think you may be right about pushing their SPL limits but don't know. I'd suggest that you contact Jim Salk and discuss with him. He is a good guy and I believe will give you reasonable guidance without too much bias. Obviously, if he says they are not enough speaker for the room, you can rule the SongTowers out. Salk are quality speakers, but the damning thing about Salks is, if they don't work out for you, Salk does little to assist you (compared to industry standards) in the way of returns.

I would stay away from the Salk sub. I know you mentioned aesthetics as important and certainly, if you got Salk mains, a Salk Sub would look good, but the Salk Sub that Audioholics was planning to review had a design issue which led to it being discluded from the review. This in combination with the lack of any return policy, makes Salk a poor choice for a subwoofer in my opinion. Sorry to the many Salk fans out there (count me as one for the sound of their speakers), but it needs to be said.

Where do you live? If you are rural, your options are a bit different than urban. If you are near Atlanta, I'll let you try out my SongTowers and see how they work for your room.

BTW, you call out insulation for the different walls and ceiling. Is this in the wall or is it the surface treatment? That will make a big difference in your acoustics.

 

[KEW]

Overall, your speakers, subwoofer, and room are probably 95% or more of what determines the quality of your sound. In such a large room as yours, you may end up wanting to go to seperate amplification. That depends on which speakers you end up with. Basically it really doesn't matter if you buy a Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer, Harman Kardon, etc. as long as it has enough power to support your speakers in your room. Any modern brand name receiver will amplify the signal without altering the signal enough that you could hear the difference. So your receiver choice should really be based more on the features you need and want than which brand (assuming it does provide the power you need).
Ideally, You will find your perfect speakers then we can assist you in determining the power you need so you can know which receivers to chose between.
Since you mentioned Magnepans as a possible speaker, I should mention that they are a speaker known to demand good power capabilities. In a room your size it is a pretty sure bet you would need to go with external amplification.

 

[jostenmeat]

Another speaker company to look into here could be Aperion. I bring this up even though I've never heard or seen one, because the finish is supposed to be very nice, and they have a return policy that is pretty much as good as it gets: They pay for your return shipping.

http://www.aperionaudio.com/ReturnPolicy.aspx

While the more we read and learn about audio, the less we rely on "subjective reviews", Aperion did take home the 2010 Audioholics Loudspeaker POY award. They can't be too shabby.

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/product-awards-and-gift-guides/2010-audioholics-poy

They also have a trade-up program.

Since they may not cost as much as other speakers you're looking at, this may free up budget for that outboard amp, or perhaps for a better sub, or in fact two subs.

Don't worry, at all, about getting the same brand of sub as speakers. You would be in the minority for sure. I bet of the regulars here, less than 1 out of 20 "matches" sub with speakers.

edit: pic.

 

[GranteedEV]

Hi. Consider used:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70726

That, plus a yamaha 3000 receiver may be alll you ever need.

 

[qyot]

jp_over, KEW and jostenmeat:

Thank you for the kind words and good advice. I've seen quite a few posts where more info was requested so I unloaded all the info I could think of. The insulation is in wall. No room treatments. It's a decorator, for-show type living room so I'm stuck except for adding more thin window shades to the other 18 windows/doors as a room softener.

I've had a 1997 Sony/Bose basic system in the room and it was ok, nothing great. With the furniture, area rugs in the room it is definitely much better than empty. I live in Rapid City, SD, which is a long drive to any sizable city (5.5+ hrs to Denver). Only have Klipsch/Paradigm dealer in town. To me, Paradigm was better than Klipsch horns for their various mains under 3k/pair. Not that big of a difference between McIntosh and Integra driving them. Really too bad I can't compare in-room head to head with the others.

Obvious concern is paying 5k+ and being disappointed by placing good/great speakers of any kind in a poor environment, which is a bit like taking delivery of a mail order bride difficult to return. A paid test with Paradigm is one option, but somewhat unfair since I can't compare with the others. My neighbor owns a couple music stores so maybe he can give an unbiased paid test if he has the equipment.

Mr. Salk is very helpful and I like that he comprehends refined appearance is important along with audio performance even at an entry level. Since the sub problem is real it looks like SVS is a higher quality sub.
I wondered if, given this large volume, if it would make any sense to buy two pairs of Songtowers, place one in each corner, drive them as A+B for music and switch to fronts/surrounds for HT, if this can be done. The price for a pair of Songtowers is 1900 and surround IIs is 1500. Not sure if the only benefit to that is bass extension or if there is no benefit at all. Maybe all of you can tell with test results?

I'm going to look at Aperion too. I've noticed that others also said they were good, but I didn't look into them. I pushed the 1.7s aside because it sounded like a large investment to drive them, plus some have said the Songtower QWTs are better overall despite a pocket of superiority of the 1.7s. Apparently the QRTs for an extra $700 takes care of that. Compared to LSI and 1.7s, the QWTs sound easier and less expensive to drive (more idiot proof), and likely produce better sound. Mr. Salk said to try it with a receiver first because I'd likely get 90% to 95% of top performance of QWTs that way and perhaps later move to dedicated, more expensive amps to extract the rest of the performance. It doesn't sound like a receiver driving LSi or Magnepan would deliver 90 to 95% of their top performance. I'd never know until I tried different amps so I'd be living in ignorant bliss until then, right.

 

[jostenmeat]

I don't really understand the thing about "A+B", but I'll try to offer input on something else. In a 20x24 room, I did not expect speaker placement close to the side walls. If any speakers are remotely close to sidewalls, the offaxis performance becomes more important, particularly in a room with no treatments. But, you say "in the corners"? Be careful with corners, as you might have a lot of boosted midbass/bass that could make it all sound muddy. In fact any boundary that is too* close, even the front wall, and can make it muddy sounding, but a corner is three boundaries.

Your money will go farther with the types of speakers you're looking at, but depending on the aesthetic limitations, you might consider in-wall speakers. Look at Triad and James for higher end offerings, for example. However, again your money won't go as far, as you need to spend a lot more to get equal performance from in-walls, so far as I know.

 

[KEW]

I'm afraid your situation - 9600 cu. ft. with 20 ft high ceiling is well out of my comfort zone.
To make sure I understand. Is you ceiling horizontal or is it vaulted? In other words is my Cu. Ft. calculation correct?

No doubt there are other on the site who have rooms at least a bit similar to yours that will be along before too long.

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[Warpdrv]

Don't forget used is a good way to start on Audiogon....

Better Bang for your buck in most cases...

I love the song towers, but I would be hesitant in a room that size as stated.... and with 9600^3 room your going to have a hard time pressurizing that area with subs...

You have a battle on your hands to get some good spl's out of a system in that room - and want to keep up the aesthetics factor....

I almost would want to suggest JTR if it wasn't for your WAF factor, but I would take a look at them anyways. Not the prettiest in the world, but they will be good for that room... http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/

I run S8's with very high power amps and I'm very happy but I spent way over your budget
I did get most of my speakers off audiogon used... couldn't be happier...

 

[GranteedEV]

I almost would want to suggest JTR if it wasn't for your WAF factor, but I would take a look at them anyways. Not the prettiest in the world, but they will be good for that room... http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/

JTR can have some really nice finishes if you're willing to pay up. Definitely an excellent suggestion. They're still "big boxes" but they're not the truck bed liner he uses on his professional stuff... I think he does automotive finishes too which are really cool. I love the Salk automotive finishes.

 

[digicidal]

The only thing I would add is a confirmation of the Maggies you mentioned - the 1.7s are the last speaker I will buy for 2ch stereo. Once I heard them I knew I would never need another pair of speakers - for an "intimate" setting however.

There is really no way I can see even with a couple of 1000W monoblocks of them putting out enough sound to truly fill your space - they would basically have NO bass in that volume (although the mids and highs would be sweet). Of course if they're going in front of windows - WAF issues might also prevent them as they would need heavy treatments on the windows and/or to be placed WAY out into the room to sound best.

I can't really add too much more, but just wanted to confirm your suspicions about them. They are incredible for a 12X15X9 listening room in a quiet corner of the house/basement - but impressive in a room your size... not so much.

 

[Warpdrv]

JTR can have some really nice finishes if you're willing to pay up. Definitely an excellent suggestion. They're still "big boxes" but they're not the truck bed liner he uses on his professional stuff... I think he does automotive finishes too which are really cool. I love the Salk automotive finishes.

I agree, for aesthetics in a really large room with WAF I would lean towards Seaton Catalysts, but the front 3 is gunna Blow right past that budget.... Now you won't need amps as they are built in, but they are very nice looking IMO especially on the new stands he just made for them if you have the room..... They would not fit in my room with my corner loaded arrangement...

Here is the link for his product page...
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736

 

[GranteedEV]

I agree, for aesthetics in a really large room with WAF I would lean towards Seaton Catalysts, but the front 3 is gunna Blow right past that budget.... Now you won't need amps as they are built in, but they are very nice looking IMO especially on the new stands he just made for them if you have the room..... They would not fit in my room with my corner loaded arrangement...

Here is the link for his product page...
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3364736

yeah the catalysts have always looked excellent but they're just too expensive. THe sparks are more interesting in that sense.

 

[qyot]

jostenmeat, KEW, granteedEV, digicidal, warpdrv:

Thanks to each of you for the advice.

Volume is more like 8400 since the ceiling is 2:1 pitch with ridge running East-West (20 high at center and 15' high at each sidewall 10' from center). Dining room is 8400 less volume of 20' high fireplace.

What I was referring to with A+B was if, for example, I had 4 songtowers (2 front (A), 2 rear (B)), playing all 4 (A+B) for stereo music and then for HT switching the two rear to surround. Don't know if receivers can switch like this without manual rewiring and don't know if that would help anyway. Doesn't sound like 4 or 5 songtowers at 5k + 1 or 2 svs subs would "solve" the room volume/base problem.

I'd like to make it perfect, but I'm about to dump 500k adding space and partially furnishing it this year so it looks like the best I can do is make it good on a budget. Maybe I'd have to go with JTR Triple 8HT or Seaton Sparks or Paradigm or other speaker with larger drivers over Salk/Magnepan to avoid a hollow, echoee baseless sound like a 1930's vintage box speaker, but I assume, perhaps incorrectly, the larger drivers mean I'll lose the musical playback first, HT second I was looking for. The HT in Triple HT is for home theater I presume. Aperion uses smaller drivers so I wonder if it would similarly lack bass in my setting.

Not sure if downward firing speakers mounted to beams 14'6" high over area rugs and furnishings would be good in any way.

I've scheduled the only acoustics analyzer in town for a visit next week to determine placement and other useful info. Let me know if there are any specific questions to have him address.

 

[GranteedEV]

What I was referring to with A+B was if, for example, I had 4 songtowers (2 front (A), 2 rear (B)), playing all 4 (A+B) for stereo music and then for HT switching the two rear to surround. Don't know if receivers can switch like this without manual rewiring and don't know if that would help anyway. Doesn't sound like 4 or 5 songtowers at 5k + 1 or 2 svs subs would "solve" the room volume/base problem.

What you're refering to is "party mode". Most surround receivers have this listed as "Multichannel Music". It's not recommended for any critical listening as 2 channel recordings should be kept in 2 channel (with the exception of adding subs, 2.4 is awesome)

Maybe I'd have to go with JTR Triple 8HT or Seaton Sparks or Paradigm or other speaker with larger drivers over Salk/Magnepan to avoid a hollow, echoee baseless sound like a 1930's vintage box speaker, but I assume, perhaps incorrectly, the larger drivers mean I'll lose the musical playback first, HT second I was looking for.

Not even close. First of all let's take Paradigm and magnepan out of the equation. Let's reduce it to Salk vs JTR (and seaton which is very similar)

The Songtowers will have more deep bass than JTR. Hollow by no means. Natural. They actually use heavier drivers in lower tuned boxes.

Sounds crazy, but the 8s used by JTR are not designed to dig deep. They're designed to play fast and loud. They're extremely efficient and will not distort no matter how hard you think you're pushing them. Because of this, dynamics will be extremely on-point.

On the other hand, the small, heavy drivers on the salk will simply be unable to go as loud. They may be enough for you but they may not be.

Now the obvious difference between using a small driver vs a large driver in speaker design is obviously partially extention/output. Heavier drivers tend to be bigger drivers.

The difference that will be noted in an audiophile sense is dispersion. Any given driver will "beam" sounds with a wavelength smaller than its diameter. For frequencies lower than this (IE a larger wavelength) it will have a more dispersive nature.

So the JTRs and Seatons are probably designed for a controlled directivity, whereas the salks' directivity will be more spherical. Obviously this may mean that they will in fact couple to your room differently.

Either way All are excellent speakers. JTRs and Seatons will probably give you a better balance between HT and Music but will require subwoofers to reproduce the deep bass. Salks will likely give you a bit more of that microdetail and air and probably won't beg you for a subwoofer but you'll never feel comfy pushing them to their limits.

All three of those mentioned speakers are extremely musical. It's just a matter of whether you'd rather listen to your music at any volume but with a subwoofer (seaton/JTR) or at lower volumes and no subwoofer neccessary (Songtower). Do you prefer listening around 65db or would you rather turn it up to 80db on occasion?

Not sure if downward firing speakers mounted to beams 14'6" high over area rugs and furnishings would be good in any way.

I wouldn't do it.

 

[KEW]

First of all let's take Paradigm and magnepan out of the equation.

Grant,
What is your thought/reasoning behind this suggestion?

Thanks,
Kurt

 

[GranteedEV]

Grant,
What is your thought/reasoning behind this suggestion?

Thanks,
Kurt

Well I don't think paradigm was really anything like JTR or Seaton "high fs big driver coaxial speakers. In fact I'd put it a lot closer to the salk end of the spectrum albeit we're now discussing 3-way towers with dome tweeters with 2-way towers with ribbon tweeters with 3-way coaxial LCRs..and of course magnepans are planars.

So I couldn't really discuss the above while also discussing the nature of paradigms or planars. I wanted to keep it simple for what I was about to expand upon.

I didn't mean "stay away from those two"... I just meant "Let's discuss the nature of these and not mix them up with the nature of those"

 

[digicidal]

Not sure if downward firing speakers mounted to beams 14'6" high over area rugs and furnishings would be good in any way.

Yep - but not for critical listening. Since your primary focus is music (although not significantly more than your secondary of movies). You are assumedly looking for very good imaging when listening to 2ch source material. You will not get this with either ceiling speakers or with a surround system playing in 'party mode'. Both of the latter will be great as 'background noise' but not make for a very enjoyable listening environment for music. Add to that the fact that ceiling speakers (at least for the front L/C/R speakers) won't even do much right as far as movies are concerned either, and I think it's safe to say you don't even want to consider this.

Use ceiling (or in your case 'rafter') mouted speakers only where you want some 'ambience' but where the focus will always be something else: eating, working, swimming, socializing, etc... In the place where your attention will always be on the sound (or the sound + the video) proper placement will be at least as important if not slightly moreso than the size of the speakers and the amplifier power driving them.

Obviously if your speakers are significantly underpowered, or totally undersized for your space - then those factors will have a deleterious effect on the imaging as well... but even if everything is more than adequate in those areas - really poor placement (and overhead is really poor) will still make it sound bad.

The important distinction (and one that is hard to make at first) is that size of the speakers - or more specifically the drivers - is not the aspect that determines volume (as Grant described). Usually described as sensitivity (output @ 1M with 1W - or 2.63V into 8Ohm powering it) - is your best specification to analyze... although it doesn't tell you anything about how it will sound - it gives you a good idea of how loud it can get with your amp/AVR.

Consider the difference between two speakers of very similar cabinet design and driver complement: Klipsch RF-62 and Canton Ergo 670 DC. The RF-62's are rated at 97db and the 670 DC's at 87.5db - despite the fact that the bass drivers on the 670's are actually .5" larger. So to play at ~100db the Klipsch will require very little power at all, while the Cantons will be sucking up a decent amount of current already.

Of course, if you offered me a pair of either free - I'd be listening to the Cantons - but that's because of my long-term relationship with Klipsch horn-loaded tweeters... (we broke up permanently). You might really like them, and trust me... you'll not be wanting for volume on them or their 'mightier' brothers the RF7's.

 

[qyot]

KEW, GranteedEV and Digicidal:

Thanks for batting those ideas around and narrowing this down. I called Mr. Salk and Rythmik today. After being told driver and crossover quality get much of the credit and that lack of distributorships permits them to use better components, I then wondered whether paying an independent pro labor + a high-end driver/crossover kit (followed by a finish carpenter) is a realistic option or a recipe for an unhappy ending. Already too many choices and that sounds a bit risky without looking into it. Lots of expense in materials and labor go into finished products so the retail prices are understandable - I don't like them, but they're understandable.

Recommendation for my space with Salks was two Rythmik FV15HP subs, though I could start with one.

I am surprised the songtowers would have less of a need for a sub/(s) than JTR's Triple 8HT. My association of larger drivers with lower frequencies got in the way. The explanation helps, but I'm still a bit fuzzy.

Sometimes I do like to turn up a movie and music to 80+dB, but I expect most often to be 60-80dB per sound pressure page on Wikipedia or chart on gcaudio.

No matter which option is selected, I'll likely match right/left fronts & center + sub so long as not taller than 48". So, given the options against a 7.5k audio budget with my aesthetic constraints, it comes down to what option as a whole does the best delivering music 1st/HT close 2nd up to 90dB including all costs (e.g any laminating + full featured receiver, cables) within/slightly over the budget. If I go with a cheaper, but better sounding option with a less refined finish, how much do I spend with the manuf or 3rd party to improve the appearance - $300 per? I'm using Salk's basic curly maple as a standard, which may be unfair to other manuf investing in better components/designs to operate over a wider range without investing in appearance. Three songtowers + refinished Rythmik FV15HP takes me around 4350 while three triple 8HTs + Rythmik without any refinishing are at 4500. Is the performance superior and worth refinishing to get accuracy up to 90dB? Can the Salks simply not get there in my room on 140W/ch? Would dedicated amps within the budget substantially improve one or the other of these options and make it a "clear" choice? Maybe the acoustic analyzer results next week will help.