Audiovox Buys Klipsch Group (Jamo, Mirage, Energy and Athena)

[FirstReflection]

I figured "OK... let's see what else they've done" thinking maybe they at least set up their other two auditioning rooms to have the speakers actually positioned so you have nominal imaging... NOPE! They're the same two rows of speaker pairs facing each other at a full 90deg angle from the centers and the TV. So while BlOSE gets a carpeted, fully furnished living room with properly spaced and directed 'speakers' (ahem cubes) - the Martin Logans, DefTechs, Polks, Kefs, and Infinitys - are all being demoed in a freakin' closet with the pairs all being horizontally opposed to each other! Of course, it doesn't really matter because most of the time they can't even figure out how to get the correct pair to play and only have one AVR that works to power them.

Not that I hadn't already decided to go ID rather than B&M for my next speakers - but if I hadn't, that would have pushed me in that direction anyway.

That's exactly the sort of thing that gets me so down We here on the internet forums know enough to just shake our heads at how the actual speakers are treated in the big box stores, but what about Joe Blow?

Despite how popular many of the internet-direct brands have become, they're still virtually unknown to the mass market. They honestly only know about what they see when they walk into the stores. How many speaker ads ever play on TV? You see TV ads for Bose and maybe you'll see an ad for one of those "sound bars" from one of the major TV manufacturers. So the mass market is totally unaware of what is really out there!

They walk into a store and it's exactly as described above there. The real speakers are pushed into a tiny room and sound like utter crap if you can even get them to play at all! Meanwhile, Bose gets (and to be fair, PAYS for) a nice-looking setup and a controlled demonstration.

People do know about HiFi stores, but most of the mass market never goes in there! There is a distinct air of elitism with most HiFi shops. And even the ones that are friendly and open tend to showcase fairly pricey speakers. Very good speakers - don't get me wrong! But pricier stuff than most people are willing to look at seriously.

We NEED that middle ground! What are we supposed to tell "regular" people? We can't tell them to go to a big box store anymore. Some of the Magnolia's are still ok, I suppose - that's really about the only option that's left! Most people aren't going to feel comfortable walking into a HiFi store. And, let's be honest, if we send them online, they either just have to take your recommendation at face value and purchase whatever internet brand you recommend, or else they won't have any idea where to look and too much choice to know what is the best internet brand for them! And it's even worse if they venture onto a forum! Let's be honest with ourselves, we don't exactly make it easy on people when they want a recommendation for internet-direct speakers. We get the SVS guy, the Ascend guy, the Salk guy, the Axiom guy, the Emotiva guy, the EMP Tek guy, etc, etc - and every single one of them swears that their chosen internet brand is the best and that the others all have some sort of short-coming that they're all too happy to point out!

It's a scary world for any mass market person who wants to buy speakers! It shouldn't be, but it is. If you're just a regular person who wants to buy something better than a $200 HTiB, you'll almost certainly end up with Bose (and also end up with something that's no better than that $200 HTiB, even though you paid 10x the price!). I can't tell you how many of my coworkers come in with a big smile and proudly announce that they just bought a Bose home theater. I'm sure I'm not the only one who knows that horror all too well

But what can we tell them? Where can we point them to go so that they can hear for themselves what is really out there? How can we convince them that they DON'T have to spend $10,000 for honest-to-goodness GOOD sound? And that if they are willing to spend $1500 or $2000 on Bose, that they can achieve SO, SO, SO much better for the exact same amount of money? They can't get that experience in a big box store. They won't get it at a HiFi shop (too intimidating). And online is just a minefield of confusion and fan-boy bickering.

Klipsch had the opportunity to elevate the middle ground. With control of so many high value brands, they could have paid the big box stores for nice display space and really showcased Klipsch, Jamo, Energy, Athena and Mirage speakers. Polk could do it too. So could Infinity or Boston or Def Tech. But they don't. None of them did. And I highly doubt that Audiovox will.

What we need is for some of the internet brands to partner up with Best Buy and purchase back some decent display space! What if Axiom got in there? Or RBH with their EMP Tek brand? Or how about a powerhouse retail brand like Paradigm? Paradigm wouldn't have to sell their Reference line stuff in Best Buy, but what about their Cinema line or their upcoming "Shift" sub-brand? Heck, what if HSU or SVSound got in there? Do these brands all HAVE to stay internet-only or specialty retailer exclusive?

It's a tough, tough market - I get that. But the time is right! And the opportunity is right there for the taking! No other reasonably priced brand is doing it! A couple of years ago, when Klipsch picked up API, I really thought they were going to dominate that mass market, big box retail space. But instead, they just reduced all of those great brands to next-to-nothing.

I don't think it's that everyone wants teeny-tiny little speakers. I think it's that a lot of people actually DO want something better than a HTiB. But they don't want to spend a crazy amount and they don't feel comfortable with the specialty HiFi shops. So they wind up with Bose because Bose has really nice displays, controlled demos and the higher price tag that makes people assume "well, they cost more, so they MUST be better, right?" Just imagine what Paradigm or Axiom or HSU or EMP Tek, etc, etc could do!

Or Audiovox, for that matter - if they put their mind to it rather than flushing all of the brands they aquire down the drain...

 

[shadyJ]

Hsu did some retail for a little bit, they sold some of their products at CompUSA if I remember correctly. They didn't care for that experience, and went back to factory direct.

I think there will always be enough demand for this 'mid-fi' products you are talking about to keep em available in electronics stores (if not in the nice displays), but more and more the future is in internet direct. Klipsch, Magnapan, among others were already doing some of that. Success in that arena means much greater net profits and without all the headaches of trying to sustain a dealer network. Let Bose dominate retail audio, lazy consumers get what they deserve.

 

[Casey01]

Unrealistic

A noble idea about the "middle ground" of speaker sales, however, realistically the very reasons you give for the various companies mentioned that currently sell strictly through the internet or specialty stores is the very reason they don't sell in the big box stores(or want to). Axiom sold their speakers in retailers for over twenty years before they went strictly the internet route which, in the end, has been far more successful for them. Big box stores are interested in maximizing profits, turning volume and selling extended service contracts. I am sure the margins on Bose equipment probably would be considerably higher than any of the brands mentioned and combine that with a sales staff that, more often than not, knows little about the various products they are selling, how would one convince the customer anyway that the Bose product would not be the best choice and these speakers represent better sound and value? It just isn't going to happen(not if the person wants to keep their job).

It would seem in order to avoid these merger and acquisition pitfalls we have witnessed, the companies that sell through the internet or specialty stores have decided to market their products to a more educated consumer who is also willing to spend more money, hence, the distribution choices they have made.

 

[digicidal]

What would be interesting (and if I had an extra million or two I would certainly try that business model out) is if some enterprising entrepreneurs would strike up some deals with several of the ID manufacturers and make their own store - only more of a 'demo facility'.

I know, before you say, that it would not be a huge profit-maker (and that it would be an uphill battle perhaps with most of the ID brands). But picture it if you will: a storefront with 3-4 nicely appointed listening rooms filled with nothing but ID product... in this room an Emotiva powered surround system. In a second room a pair Aperion Verus Grand Towers running off a Wyred4Sound integrated. Maybe in a third a display of 7-8 different standmount monitors from Ascend, Salk, Emotiva, Axiom, EMP Tek, etc... backed by a rear wall of subs from Epik, HSU, SVS, and the previously mentioned brands - all running off a panel of low-to-mid priced AVRs.

With a nice "coffee and conversation" atmosphere and no pressure sales. So how would such a place make enough to cover their overhead?? By providing Internet kiosks for customers to place their orders online (through custom portals that would kick back commissions to the store from the vendors themselves - something small so the price could be the same and therefore not provide a disincentive). Also how about a wall of pretty, functional, and only 200-500% marked up cables, stands, acoustic treatments, etc... sure I find cable margins to be criminal - but that's when they're in the 1000's of percent markup by snake oil salesmen. As long as there weren't any $5K interconnects which had been cryogenically treated by Rabbis on the first Saturday in May... Finally there is always plenty of money to be made in installs and support.

I know I'd be happy to pick them up at the store that gave me a chance to truly compare and contrast a number of normally physically unavailable products. Even the source of them could be ID - just buy from BlueJeans and mark up 2-5X. Sure a few people would just go online themselves when they got home - but for the most part, those people would have done that anyway. For the others, the people looking to spend $3K on a system, but not $13K or $30K - they could have that 'boutique experience' within their budget.... and if the experience was good - recommend it to everyone they knew.

Dunno if it would be a viable business - but I know I'd be there right now rather than typing this response at my desk.

 

[dkane360]

What would be interesting (and if I had an extra million or two I would certainly try that business model out) is if some enterprising entrepreneurs would strike up some deals with several of the ID manufacturers and make their own store - only more of a 'demo facility'.

I know, before you say, that it would not be a huge profit-maker (and that it would be an uphill battle perhaps with most of the ID brands). But picture it if you will: a storefront with 3-4 nicely appointed listening rooms filled with nothing but ID product... in this room an Emotiva powered surround system. In a second room a pair Aperion Verus Grand Towers running off a Wyred4Sound integrated. Maybe in a third a display of 7-8 different standmount monitors from Ascend, Salk, Emotiva, Axiom, EMP Tek, etc... backed by a rear wall of subs from Epik, HSU, SVS, and the previously mentioned brands - all running off a panel of low-to-mid priced AVRs.

With a nice "coffee and conversation" atmosphere and no pressure sales. So how would such a place make enough to cover their overhead?? By providing Internet kiosks for customers to place their orders online (through custom portals that would kick back commissions to the store from the vendors themselves - something small so the price could be the same and therefore not provide a disincentive). Also how about a wall of pretty, functional, and only 200-500% marked up cables, stands, acoustic treatments, etc... sure I find cable margins to be criminal - but that's when they're in the 1000's of percent markup by snake oil salesmen. As long as there weren't any $5K interconnects which had been cryogenically treated by Rabbis on the first Saturday in May... Finally there is always plenty of money to be made in installs and support.

I know I'd be happy to pick them up at the store that gave me a chance to truly compare and contrast a number of normally physically unavailable products. Even the source of them could be ID - just buy from BlueJeans and mark up 2-5X. Sure a few people would just go online themselves when they got home - but for the most part, those people would have done that anyway. For the others, the people looking to spend $3K on a system, but not $13K or $30K - they could have that 'boutique experience' within their budget.... and if the experience was good - recommend it to everyone they knew.

Dunno if it would be a viable business - but I know I'd be there right now rather than typing this response at my desk.

It's a good idea, buy you would have to be able to buy the speakers there. I think one of the reasons people shop at stores instead of online is that they want instant gratification. They want the product as soon as they pay for it.

 

[digicidal]

It's a good idea, buy you would have to be able to buy the speakers there. I think one of the reasons people shop at stores instead of online is that they want instant gratification. They want the product as soon as they pay for it.

True, I was thinking more along the lines of custom finishes, etc... which is another aspect that is more or less unique to ID product offerings. Certainly the "basic black" or whatever was the standard finish of the product could be kept in stock.

And since it's pure fantasy - perhaps make it a full-service concierge service where you simply picked out what you would like and paid for it... and in a few days someone from the store came and set everything up for you and helped with placement and acoustic treatments and a full professional EQ profile.

Unfortunately, in order for that to be profitable (due to employee overhead, insurance, fleet requirements, inventory, etc...) you'd be right back to high-end prices before too long, although still less than the admission fee for a store that carried only McIntosh, Magico, and MBL.

 

[Casey01]

A nice idea, but this sounds a lot like a few of the so-called "high-end" stores I have around here. There is also the major issue of securing quality sales staff, which isn't so easy. Unfortunately, unless one has "very deep" pockets for such a worthy endeavor, you still have to make sales and like any brand and/or brands a retailer carries, they have to turn certain numbers to maintain discounts from that brand and specific brands will offer extra discounts for you to promote their products over another. Ascend or Salk, for eg., aren't going to maintain models on the floor if they don't see the sales numbers. As someone who spent years in the business it is realistically just the "name of the game".

This, once again, comes back to why these companies have gone primarily the "internet-only" method in once they have developed a reputation, they are streamlining their lines of distribution by avoiding that "middle man" hence, being able to reduce prices, offer better warranties, etc. etc. Those that sell in the specialty stores only, have been around for awhile and pretty well know who their customer is (and isn't).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a wonderful idea, however, you are looking at it from the standpoint of an educated consumer with a more than casual interest(and knowledge) in this particular area and unfortunately, the $18 billion dollars of sales that Best Buy does in a year is with consumers that, for the most part, aren't so educated or that interested.

 

[digicidal]

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a wonderful idea, however, you are looking at it from the standpoint of an educated consumer with a more than casual interest(and knowledge) in this particular area and unfortunately, the $18 billion dollars of sales that Best Buy does in a year is with consumers that, for the most part, aren't so educated or that interested.

Oh I know you are correct... like so much else in the world (no matter how great an idea it might be) - if there was even somewhat decent margins to be made doing it... someone already would be.

Of course, the great thing about many of the ID brands is that they are much more directly hands-on in the pre and post-sales user support. Plus if they are successful purely on word-of-mouth and the strength of their products, then they usually have a virtual army of current owners that are willing to open their homes to strangers with a genuine interest in becoming owners themselves.

 

[FirstReflection]

Well, maybe I'm too kind, but I do not think that the uneducated (about audio) mass market is "getting what they deserve". I think they deserve better!

There are the people who only want to spend $200 or less for 5.1 surround sound. OK - they're stuck with HTiB options and that's just how that goes. But the people who are buying Bose systems - they are paying good money! $1500-$2000 sort of range. And they are looking in that price range because they want something better than a HTiB. They aren't getting it - but they want it! And they are obviously willing to pay that kind of price for it.

For $1500-$2000, people deserve better. The "educated" customers who are looking in that price range are most certainly buying online. But I really don't think that everyone should HAVE to educate themselves to that level. People SHOULD be able to walk into a store and walk out with something that is honestly good for $2000.

It used to be entirely possible and pretty easy. Back when Athena was popular, you could get a really nice 5.1 Athena speaker package and a Yamaha or Onkyo receiver for that kind of price range. Was it the Best Thing EVAR in the Whole Universe?! No. But it was pretty darn good and certainly way, Way, WAY better than Bose.

There were also some pretty good choices from Polk and Infinity and Energy sort of got into that segment too. I know that all of those companies still technically exist, but the quality of what is available in the big box stores seems to have gone down. And the way these products are displayed has dropped to "bargain bin" type of storage more than display!

All I'm saying is that the time is ripe! I'm saying that if ANY decent speaker manufacturer made a concerted effort (and spent a good amount of marketing cash) they could basically run unopposed. That's essentially what Bose is doing right now, except that they aren't decent

I don't really care who it is. It could be Audiovox. It could be Polk, or Def Tech or JBL. Or it could be one of the big internet brands. I just want SOMEBODY to get in there and give the mass market at least one, truly good alternative. D&M could do it with their Boston brand. Or Paradigm could do it.

Yes, it would take a big investment in marketing cash and money paid to the big box stores for nice displays and setup. They would basically need to go toe-to-toe with Bose - although it wouldn't have to be entirely equal. But I just think that now is the perfect time to strike! Like I said, I really thought that this was what Klipsch was planning to do when they bought API. I thought it was going to be Bose and Klipsch going head-to-head. But Klipsch would have several brands under their umbrella and some actually GOOD speakers that would win out over Bose when the mass market customers actually got a good demo and heard the difference for themselves!

Obviously though, it really must just take too much cash to pull it off. Bose is successful because they sell $12 speakers for $2000, and therefore, they have the cash to pay for the marketing and those nice displays in the stores. I guess it takes that kind of profit margin to pull it off and no one else is able to make it happen

 

[GranteedEV]

And the way these products are displayed has dropped to "bargain bin" type of storage more than display!

This I agree with. I was at best buy one day and I came across the P363s. They're placed about 3 feet apart (ugh), and hooked up to a receiver. Behind me there's a loud and obnoxious bose demo playing some jurrassic park sounds The receiver isn't even hooked up to the P363s I find... it's hooked up to the P163 bookshelves above it.

I ask the best buy guy to put some demo material on and he asks me if I've got an ipod.

...really? They don't even have the receiver hooked up to anything? It's just playing the radio. Never mind that, there's about 3 speakers to either side ALSO playing the radio. Each of those tower speakers also just 3 feet apart.

 

[digicidal]

...really? They don't even have the receiver hooked up to anything? It's just playing the radio. Never mind that, there's about 3 speakers to either side ALSO playing the radio. Each of those tower speakers also just 3 feet apart.

It's not that much better when you move up the line so-to-speak... when I went into the Magnolia room at one of them - I had to help the guy setup the B&W's - because none of them were connected. Now I know they're a recent addition to their lineup.. but not THAT recent! I'm not sure if someone came in and ransacked the room for 3' pieces of speaker cable or if they've never been hooked up at all. Regardless, they certainly weren't capable of playing anything in the state they were when I walked in the room. And they can't break open some speaker wire from the floor apparently for inventory reasons - so I had to wait for them to find their spool of bulk.

Neither were the ML Sources - nor any of the Vienna Acoustics, which they didn't carry any longer and were just selling the demos for 40% off... which I might have jumped at if they weren't so damaged. I'd have paid $300pr for them maybe in that condition - not $1199. Oh but guess what was hooked up - yep they had a couple of pairs of bose speakers in there too - not the acoustimass of course but some bookshelf models (I have not idea what they were - didn't waste my time).

To their credit, they did have a few mini-livingroom setups in the large display area - but they were all playing movies and you couldn't tell what sound was coming from which set of speakers. In the 'auditioning room' was where you could actually hear - but only after spending an hour looking for wire and helping to wire them up while the guy rang up purchases for customers.

 

[FirstReflection]

To their credit, they did have a few mini-livingroom setups in the large display area - but they were all playing movies and you couldn't tell what sound was coming from which set of speakers. In the 'auditioning room' was where you could actually hear - but only after spending an hour looking for wire and helping to wire them up while the guy rang up purchases for customers.

This is what I mean - this is not the fault of the mass market customers. We might blame people for buying Bose, but when this is the sort of in-store experience they get, what can we really expect?!

People are NOT getting what they deserve. We can sit here and blame Best Buy all we want, but it's also clear that the manufacturers apparently don't care how their products are displayed in-store. They don't demand better treatment, so they don't get better treatment. Simple as that.

Personally, I don't believe that there isn't a single speaker company, other than Bose, with the money to pay for marketing and good in-store displays. They just seem to lack the will!

How can all of the speaker companies out there really be happy with the state of things? Is it just that none of them have any sort of "killer instinct"? Are they really all just happy to sit back and watch people buy HTiB packages, Bose or internet-direct brands? Then again, the biggest company - JBL (of The Harmon Group) - really doesn't sell to individual customers. Their business is selling to theaters, stadiums and other professionals.

I don't know... it's just discouraging. I think that everybody with even a passing interest deserves good sound. I know that a ton of people don't seem to care, but I actually attribute most of that to laziness and lack of interest more than genuinely not caring about sound quality. People just use the earphones that come with their mp3 player or the speaker package that the Best Buy employee points to first. It's a matter of convenience and not wanting to have to actively burn calories on seeking out something better.

But what if we just made "decent" sound the baseline, rather than truly horrible sound. What if those iPod earbuds were actually decent? Maybe it wouldn't be so hard for all of us enthusiasts to stomach that way. What if the first thing the Best Buy employees pointed to was the Athena Micra6 package with a Yamaha receiver? At least we wouldn't have to shudder every time we overhear their transaction or walk into a friends house who just bought their first surround sound system

 

[digicidal]

Yep... and what's really sad is that it often takes so little for most consumers to be really happy - they just have not idea where to go or what to do.

It's a different matter for those of us that are enthusiasts. I didn't mind wasting an hour of my time (well I did mind - but I was willing nontheless) hooking up the B&W's at BB for them... because I really needed to hear if they were what I was looking for. They unfortunately didn't wind up blowing me away - although they were nice, certainly - but I'm prepared to spend weeks (months?) let alone hours trying to find exactly what I'm looking for.

I do the same thing with cars, houses, etc... my wife and I probably spend 15-20 hrs a week looking at houses online - and have been doing so for over 2 years so far. Haven't found anything I wanted to pull the trigger on yet - but if it appears, I'll know before the realtor does.

The problem is that most consumers do not or cannot spend the time to educate themselves and make their own decision. I've talked to several car-salesmen that told me a significant number of people seriously walk up and say "I need a car or truck I think - what should I get?"

I had no idea people like that even existed... I can understand not being sure if the extra 40-60 lbft of torque is going to make the -6 mpg of the V8 worth it when you're pulling a boat... but I can't conceive of not already knowing WHAT KIND OF VEHICLE YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!

That one bit of insight told me a great deal about the 'average consumer' - they want quality (just like everyone else does) but they are not willing to do much of anything to determine what quality even means. I think all of the speaker companies spend way too much time in marketing their image - and way too little supporting the customer and perfecting their product.

But we have to all admit that our priorities are not the same as theirs. And until such a time as that changes - whatever is the 'prettiest' and in many cases whatever the "knowledgeable sales guy" recommends is what they will take.

And soon it will be down to Audiovox, Harman, Bose, and whatever ID brands don't get big enough to get sucked up by one of them in the next round of acquisitions.

 

[KEW]

but only after spending an hour looking for wire and helping to wire them up while the guy rang up purchases for customers.

Looking at the build quality and (non-discounted) MSRP of Bose speakers, we know there is incredible profit being had. This is pure speculation, but I really have to wonder what the retailer's cut is. It may be that it is in their best monetary interest to have Bose product outsell the others. The others are there only to give the customers the appearance of plenty of choices.

If I brought home the bacon on commission, I wouldn't be too happy about helping your sorry a$$ wiring up speakers we had collectively been neglecting for months while my co-workers were making the easy money!

 

[digicidal]

If I brought home the bacon on commission, I wouldn't be too happy about helping your sorry a$$ wiring up speakers we had collectively been neglecting for months while my co-workers were making the easy money!

LOL! Well that may be the case for the store... but BB employees don't work on commission as far as I know. At least that's what they told me. In any case, I did all the hooking up of the speakers - they just had to go rooting around to find the spool of cable and the stripper... I did all the prep and connecting. So basically they got a free employee for an hour - and I got to hear some speakers that I decided weren't worth my money. I'm pretty sure I lost out on that one - but on the bright side... less than if I'd purchased an Acoustimass system!

 

[dkane360]

LOL! Well that may be the case for the store... but BB employees don't work on commission as far as I know. At least that's what they told me. In any case, I did all the hooking up of the speakers - they just had to go rooting around to find the spool of cable and the stripper... I did all the prep and connecting. So basically they got a free employee for an hour - and I got to hear some speakers that I decided weren't worth my money. I'm pretty sure I lost out on that one - but on the bright side... less than if I'd purchased an Acoustimass system!

I was helping people buy blu-ray players at a best buy once because there were no employees around. I picked one out for an elderly couple next to me and told them how to hook it up. They didn't even have a high definition tv, they just wanted one because their daughter had one lol.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Hey, gang....

There's an incredible.... and I mean like, almost all of it.... amount of missunderstanding and assumptions being made about the business side of consumer electronics.

I've been thinking about and working on a possible thread where you guys can ask questions or bring up issues related to the business side of the industry and I could answer them with brutal honesty. Sort of a pulling back the curtain to reveal the Wizard sort of thing. I would be happy to answer actual questions and help further discussion on that side of things. I think if people understood or had some sort of direction on this stuff your shopping experiences would make more sense both at big box shops and with dealers or ID brands.

Would any of you want to participate or find a thread like that interesting or informative?

 

[Seth=L]

Would any of you want to participate or find a thread like that interesting or informative?

I would like it if you started such a thread.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I would like it if you started such a thread.

Here you are, sir!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71560

 

[digicidal]

Hey, gang....

There's an incredible.... and I mean like, almost all of it.... amount of missunderstanding and assumptions being made about the business side of consumer electronics.

Long post in the other thread, but wanted to add a response here more on-topic for the Audiovox/ID Guys issues raised by myself and others in this one.

I think most consumers (OK - maybe not "most" but most informed consumers at least) are completely aware of the additional overhead that a retail store requires - but that's not the issue here. As stated, many would be willing to pay extra for the same products to receive ID quality goods - with B&M-style services and costs.

The issue is pertinent to this thread because that is the fear at a most-basic brand level as well. Many of the newly acquired marks now under the Audiovox banner were well respected both for their products and their customer loyalty. I know I spent many hours on the Klipsch forums, and I didn't even think their speakers were that great - but I did think their support was great. As they got bigger and acquired more brands and moved manufacturing to China - all of that disappeared. The forums were still there, but the employee presence was all but gone.

Now that they're all under the Audiovox name - it's likely that EVERYTHING will disappear - with the exception of lower quality products, with virtually no support whatsoever. It's the sell-it-and-forget mentality. The same has happened at the B&M retail level - the concept of customer loyalty is gone. There's no more of the "this guy only has $500 today - but he may need a $60K full-house system 4-5 years from now... so I'll treat him the same as everyone else".

Is that such an illogical and unreasonable expectation as a consumer? Is CE an industry which is so 'strapped for cash' that the only way to operate at a profit is to scorn all but the big-ticket buyers, and then scorn everyone (including them) after the point of sale? With many of the ID brands you can send an email to the president of the company and receive a personal response within a day or so - while I don't expect that from the president of Audiovox or Denon or similar company... I often can't even get a response from call center employees in India within 72 hours at half of these companies... or a call back from a local dealer I've spent thousands at for that matter.