New to home theater, need some help?

[Jaferitis]

I'm just starting to get into home theater setups and whatnot. What I'm planning on getting right now, though, isn't for my home or bedroom, but for my fraternity house's dance floor room (so it's being used exclusively for music). Not looking to get anything ridiculous, but right now, this is what I'm looking at getting. I'm on a budget of ~$200 (but, if worth it, I can push it up a bit).

I would link to the receiver and subwoofer I plan on getting, but there's a post requirement. The receiver is an Onkyo HT-R320 (but I'm getting the whole system it comes with; the HT-S590), and the subwoofer is the Polk Audio PSW10 10-inch subwoofer.

edit: links!

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-10-Inch-Monitor-Subwoofer/dp/B0002KVQBA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1295020171&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HTS590-Channel-Component-Theater/dp/B000FHBNI6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1295023252&sr=1-1

specs for the receiver

Power Output: 
Front L/R 100 W+ 100 W 
Center 100 W 
Surround L/R 100 W+ 100 W (8 Q, 20 Hz~20 kHz, FTC) 
Dynamic Power 230 W + 230 W (3 Ω, Front) 
170 W+ 170 W (4 Ω, Front) 
115 W+ 115 W(8 Ω, Front) 

THD 
(Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08 % (Power Rated) 
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω.) 
Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/ 47 kΩ (LINE) 
Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/ 2.2 kΩ (REC OUT) 
Frequency Response 10 Hz~100 kHz / +0 dB -3 dB (Direct mode) 

Tone Control + 12 dB, -12 dB, 50 Hz (BASS) 
+12 dB, -12 dB, 20 kHz (TREBLE) 
SN Ratio 100 dB (CD, IHF-A) 
Speaker Impedance 8Ω to 16 Ω 

Tuner Section 
■ FM 
Tuning Frequency Range 87.5 MHz-108.0 MHz 
Usable Sensitivity Stereo 17.2 dBf 2 uV (75 Ω IHF) 
Mono 11.2 dBf 1 uV (75 Ω IHF) 
S/N Ratio Stereo 70 dB (IHF-A) 
Mono 76 dB (IHF-A) 
THD Stereo 0.3 % (1 kHz) 
Mono 0.2%(lkHz) 
Stereo Separation 45 dB ( 1 kHz ) 

■ AM 
Tuning Frequency Range 530 kHz-1710 kHz 
Usable Sensitivity 30 uV 
S/N Ratio 40 dB 
THD 0.70 % 

General 
Power Supply AC 120 V, 60 hz 
Power Consumption 4.7 Amps 
Stand-by Power Consumption 1.6 Watts 
Dimensions (W x H x D): 17 x 6 x 15 inches +/- 
Weight 19.4 lbs 
Video Inputs 
A/V Input DVD/ Blu-ray, Video1, Video2, Video3

I also have 4 speakers on the side that I'll link a pic to once I get 4 more posts. although I don't have their specs off hand, but once someone gets back to me, I'll be able to get the specs for them.

edit: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e242/sacredraider/IMG_0397.jpg


This dance floor room is, let's say, about 20'x15'. The most important piece for a dance floor, obviously, is the bass, so would the subwoofer I posted be sufficient? Can this receiver even support the subwoofer?

 

[jostenmeat]

If you don't want to fear that any given MINUTE that you will blow an amp or speaker, you need to add a LOT more to your budget. Like add another zero to it.

What you ideally want are the following things:

Commercial amplifier (Crown, QSC, Yamaha, etc).

Commercial type speakers (JBL, JTR, Seaton, etc).

Make sure to watch the whole minute here . . .

 

[Jaferitis]

thanks, but uh... that didn't really answer the question at all

edit: wanted to add that I have a Bose Acoustimass 30 Series II subwofoer sitting around... can I use that with another receiver?

edit 2: nvm, after some googling, found out it's not even really a subwoofer and it's a p.o.s. anyway

 

[digicidal]

I understand that not answering your questions (although I found it very compelling personally jostenmeat).

What he's basically telling you is that you are approaching this in the totally wrong direction... and pretty much that if that is all your budget actually is - then you're not going to be able to do what you want to do unless you find one hell of a deal on craigslist or in the newspaper.

HT speakers/electronics (well, consumer-level stuff) aren't designed to power a small club (which is essentially what you're looking for). With a decent pro-amp and some used Cerwin Vegas or a really old PA system that's clean and uses dual 15s at least you will have crappy but close... however, you'll still likely be over budget by about 100% or more.

Perhaps it would make more sense like this: If you were to look for a subwoofer that was intended for home use, that would really sound LOUD in that room... you'd have to spend at least $2000 on it. And that's before the cost of the receiver, source, and speakers to play any actual music at a level that would be audible to anyone from more than 2ft away once you filled it with drunken college students.

IMO it's just not possible for you - sorry. One thing you can check out, as a possible option - depending on where you live there may be a pro-sound company that provides RENTALS... of equipment that would cost $1000's if you had to buy it. However, they will let you rent it for the evening for about your budget and maybe a little less. The added benefit is that they will usually set it up and take it down - although probably not for $200. Sorry.

EDIT - I just saw the room dimensions... you could probably get away with a HT setup - not for anything remotely close to $200 but it's not bigger than my livingroom really so it could work. Look for the biggest speakers you can find from Cerwin Vega or if you know someone willing to donate/loan an old pair of Klipsch - the bigger the better. If it helps put it in perspective - my livingroom is about the same size and I picked up a pair of 12" subs for ~$900... and it's not SUPER loud. One thing that will make a big difference... is it an enclosed room or is it open to a much larger area (game room, etc..) If it's enclosed you'll have more sound (esp. bass) but it won't be very usefull as a dancefloor possibly).

With extremely efficient speakers (>94db/1W/1M 8ohm speakers) you should be able to maintain decent SPLs without taxing your amp too much. You'd definitely kill an AVR with anything even remotely inefficient however.

 

[jostenmeat]

thanks, but uh... that didn't really answer the question at all

You're right about that. So, here's my answer:

No.

If you are willing to build from scratch a subwoofer, you could get a great one, but even the highest value I can think of will still blow your budget (probably triple, maybe only double if lucky, just a guess though).

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60906

 

[digicidal]

I think at that price point about the best you can hope for as far as "big club sound" is going to be something like this.

Speakers and amp all in one package with plenty of power to get down fairly low as long as you put them in the corners of the room. Of course, you'll have to figure out what to put them on because you don't get stands at this price. And you'll still have to get some long cables to feed the signal to them (from your CD player or iPod whatever).

I wouldn't even try to call the sound 'great' or even 'listenable' if it was for one person in an easy chair... but for 15-20 people at a party - it should be plenty loud and still have some decent bass to make you happy.

EDIT: Aw crap... even that isn't gonna fit within your budget - that price is PER SPEAKER so you'd have to more than double your budget even for that. Sorry kid... I think josten's right - it ain't gonna happen. Just set up what you can find (and BEFORE anyone comes over) sit down and crank it up slowly... when the sound starts getting crappy and distorted... turn the volume down by a notch or two and mark that point with masking tape and a sharpy. Now take another piece of tape and put it across the top of the receiver and write on it in the biggest letters you can fit: IF YOU TURN THIS UP PAST THE POINT MARKED ON THE TAPE - I WILL KILL YOU ON THE SPOT! (or something along those lines).

Not really a solution, but it will keep you (hopefully) from blowing up the AVR or the Speakers. And if people complain that the music isn't loud enough... have a collection jar for the "dance fund" so that when you have at least $500-1000 in the jar you can have a decent shot at actually rockin' the house at the next party.

As a side tip - since you're planning on using a surround AVR - remember that on most models you will actually get the most power and volume by only using two channels instead of all 5 or 7. More speakers doesn't necessarily mean louder sound - and if the amp is splitting it's power between them - it can actually mean much less sound and much faster speaker death. Just use the two MOST EFFICIENT speakers - if you're not sure which they are try this:

Set a volume level at about 1/3 of maximum, TURN OFF AVR, hook up speakers, TURN ON AVR - play something.

Then just 'rinse and repeat' this process until you've listened to all of the speakers you have available... whichever ones sounded the loudest at that volume are most likely the ones you want to try using.

 

[Jaferitis]

thanks for the detailed response. so let's say I did manage to get 2 of those speakers you mentioned. where would I go from there? i'd still need a receiver, yes?

 

[Jaferitis]

Just got the budget approved to close to $500. What should I go for? Just get 2 of those speakers you posted?

edit: found these on craigslist
http://binghamton.craigslist.org/ele/2165319236.html

they look good to me, but then again, i'm obviously not experienced with speakers. thoughts?

 

[digicidal]

Just got the budget approved to close to $500. What should I go for? Just get 2 of those speakers you posted?

edit: found these on craigslist
http://binghamton.craigslist.org/ele/2165319236.html

they look good to me, but then again, i'm obviously not experienced with speakers. thoughts?

I can't really make a recommendation on those since I have no idea what their true specifications are - but I'm sure they're really loud (I'm NOT sure they're any good however). Since you're up to $500 you could also look for an older pair of CerwinVega's from the late 80s to early 90s - you'll probably be able to find some on CL or local paper perhaps. They should get more than loud enough.

Also remember to check pawn shops if you have some nearby and make sure you talk them down somewhat... I've yet to see a pawn broker that wasn't willing to let something go for 60-70% of what the posted price was on something in their shop.

thanks for the detailed response. so let's say I did manage to get 2 of those speakers you mentioned. where would I go from there? i'd still need a receiver, yes?

No. Those are powered speakers (unless I linked the wrong ones). All you will need are two very long interconnects - you can use two subwoofer cables if you want - and connect them directly to your CD/DVD player's analog outputs. (I believe it has unbalanced and balanced connections on it... but the listing just says XLR which are balanced) if not you'd need a pair of unbalanced -> XLR cables or converter. However now that your budget is a little bigger... just go ahead and get one of these and add your iPod, etc... and you'll be done and even have a mic so you can be the real DJ!

Here's one... and here's another.

Not only will that let you rock the party in your frat house... but if you're in need of extra cash, you could probably get a weekend gig doing a few weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs, etc... That way when you graduate - you'll have enough money to buy a system that get's really loud and is really clean sounding too (besides the fact that it will look prettier - thus making your GF/wife happier)!

EDIT: I just confirmed on another site that those speakers I originally linked to are indeed supposed to have BOTH unbalanced RCA inputs as well as balanced XLR inputs so you would be fine with a couple of cheap subwoofer cables running to a CD player with them... although I'm still leaning toward one of the complete setups as it would give you multiple input options, some level controls (without having to run back and forth between the speakers and adjusting their volumes individually), plus the ability to add two more speakers for really stupid levels of sound in your room.

 

[Jaferitis]

those dj systems look like something we'd definitely want to use. what's the difference between the two? i noticed that the 2nd one has a woofer listed in the specs. judging by the frequency response, the 2nd sent hits the lower notes? but the 1st one has 3 way speakers, although i'm not sure what that means exactly.

i like that it comes with a 4 channel amp for 2 more speakers. i was recommended on another site to get a 2 channel stereo receiver and 2 big BIC speakers that would run me about the same price as the dj setups you listed, but i'm really leaning towards the dj setups. right now, i'm thinking maybe it would be the best to get one of the dj setups and perhaps one of the BIC speakers i recommended, which would just about hit my full budget.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009WBYI/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk this is what i was told to get, along with this receiver

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AMUFMA/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

 

[digicidal]

i noticed that the 2nd one has a woofer listed in the specs. judging by the frequency response, the 2nd sent hits the lower notes? but the 1st one has 3 way speakers, although i'm not sure what that means exactly.

2-way simply means that there is one driver which produces the lower frequencies and one that produces the higher ones - and 3-way means that there are 3 drivers (or sets of drivers) that produce the different frequencies.

I'm not sure of the cabinet volume and/or design (I just picked them as ones that would fit your purpose). However one appears to have a sensitivity of 97db and hit 40Hz and the other (3way) is 98db and 50Hz. They both use exactly the same amp - so that being exactly the same... we can surmise that the 2way setup will get slightly lower (very slightly) and the 3way will get slightly louder (again very slightly).

In comparison the BIC speakers are specified as having a sensitivity of 90db and a FR down to 33Hz - so in comparison, these speakers with the same amp will get even a little bit lower still, yet will be about 10% quieter with the same amp... with the stereo receiver linked - they would be MUCH quieter still because the amp will run out of juice long before the speakers run out of excursion... this can be bad because you're back to the overdriven recevier possibility.

Not having charts or personal experience with either speaker - I can't say which speaker will sound "better" - however, in a party setting that's less important anyway. Any of those selections (including even the BIC's) will get pretty damn loud in your room. I wouldn't buy more than 2 speakers - if you want more "sound" you'll undoubtedly only need it on the low end... in which case you'd be much better served by adding in a dedicated (and powered) subwoofer... but I think you'd be surprised how much bass these will have. Even getting down to 50Hz - coupled with some boundary enforcement (i.e. put the speakers in the corners of the room) - should get deep enough for the beat to be felt in your chest.

Adding a great sub to the mix would help more, but less with the DJ setups because they won't have a crossover - so it will give you more bass but not really help take any load off the other speakers because they will all be run 'fullrange' (i.e. playing as low as the music does). The stereo receiver does appear to have a sub-preout which would allow you to run smaller speakers and larger subs... but again you're going to blow right past your budget before you've even purchased the first sub!

I would say skip the BIC's - but that's your call ultimately. If this is truly just for dances in your frat house... they will do all they need to. Either one will be good. The other nice thing (about the DJ setups) is that they were designed for each other - so you won't have to worry as much about over-driving your amp and blowing up the speakers or amp. I would however recommend verifying that you still hear pretty clean sound at high volume BEFORE you invite everyone over and turn it up all the way.

However, with 300W RMS and 600W peak output on the DJ setups... coupled with more efficient speakers - you're probably more likely to get headaches and tinnitus than you are of blowing up the speakers or amp. However, it is incredibly cheap - so I'm sure the build quality of both amp and speakers leaves something to be desired - after all.. if you could get really, really great quality for $500 - they wouldn't ever sell setups costing $5000.

 

[Jaferitis]

Thanks for the detailed explanation; really appreciate it. Looks like I'm gonna go with the 3-way speaker set and save whatever's left on the budget for a subwoofer. Worst comes to worst, I can always replace the amp with a better amp/receiver in the future, right?

I did just notice that the wire input on the amp isn't the regular speaker wire though... would I have to get a subwoofer with a certain kind of wire to use with that amp?


edit: did a google search on the pyle brand, and nothing really came up as favorable... starting to reconsider.

 

[digicidal]

edit: did a google search on the pyle brand, and nothing really came up as favorable... starting to reconsider.

Oh I wouldn't expect to find much favorable about them either - they definitely are going to be the "bottom of the barrel" in terms of quality and reliability... which is why jostenmeat's answer of "NO" is the real answer.

Anything you attempt for "loud & quality" on any 3-figure budget is not going to be great. Just do some searches for peoples opinions of the BIC speakers indicated and you'll find people with problems too.

Now on their higher-end lines I actually think they make quite decent speakers for the money... however, in their case that money is still at least twice if you factor in an amp.

I think you need to determine what you absolute priorities are (in order) and then perhaps a better recommendation can be made. Your options are:

1) Cheap
2) Loud
3) Good

You can pick two of these and we can make some recommendations... note however, that there is a fourth quality: Reliable. That one will at least double whatever the cost of the items selected based on the above equation.

For example: I have about the same size room for my home theater that you're going to use as a dancefloor. I also have a limited budget (although much larger than your own) so I purchased TWO of these. I knew that one of them wouldn't get there in my space... but with two I would get very close, and it would still be much more tolerable to my pocket than getting one of these would.

There are many who would consider my setup to be too 'light' in the bass department - but I don't like listening terribly loud... so it's great for me.

When I had a budget of $550 - I bought some cheap Klipsch Synergies and picked up a used AVR from a pawn shop. It would get pretty loud - not party loud, but home-theater loud - but it didn't go terribly low and it wasn't very clean sounding.

You've indicated you have a very specific and fairly temporary (2-3 years I assume at most) need - to get DAMN loud and have a pumping bass feel. But you have to push the budget to get even to the level that those Pyles cost.

Your only options to do better are to really break the bank, to get really lucky buying used gear from a pawnshop or CL, to deal with "you can hear it over the conversations" loud but not really feel it in your chest, or the final option: rent a setup when you're ready to have a party.

There's a reason why DJ/PA equipment rentals exist - because the ordinary person simply doesn't have the budget to get the extension required to power a very large space loudly enough.

However, you're more than welcome to do as I said in an earlier post - and set up what you have. If that is almost loud enough for you, then you might have some options... if on the other hand you wish to achive a "wall of sound" or "thunderous club feel" in your room... and you want to do it on a limited budget - then Jostenmeat already gave you the right answer and I'm just spinning my wheels.

 

[digicidal]

The one thing I would add is that if you were looking for something for just 'hanging out' and listening to... then I would recommend going with that Onkyo receiver, and just getting some nice bookshelf speakers for all of the rest of your budget - maybe like these from BIC... or a pair of Klipsch even and then saving up another $500 or so and adding a sub... even some of their's are pretty well regarded among the ultra-low-budget options (although I still opted for my dual Ultra12s - I did consider that PL-200 for awhile, and it actually would have been the 'louder' option - although not the 'better' one IMHO).

However, as I understand it this will be the property of the house, will experience limited use except as a party setup, and will be left behind when you leave and move on to real life after college... at which time you can begin the long journey many of us have been on since that time.

As far as the BIC products are concerned... you'd be better served (if you go that direction instead) with a pair of these also found here. At least with those you'll go lower (30Hz according to their specs - which I doubt, but probably close) and get louder (sensitivity is 96db) than the ones with the 15" drivers.

In addition they are front-ported... so you could push them all the way into the corners of the room... giving you a little more extension... and they are a pretty damn easy load - and should get to ~105db or so with 100W. However, if you do go that route... make sure you do the testing I recommended in the prior post - because when you're drunk and the girls are screaming over the music... you won't be able to tell how badly your speakers and amp are begging for mercy. Also wouldn't hurt to throw a couple of PC fans on the top of the receiver blowing upwards so that everything inside is as cool as possible - although if heat is an issue - then dead speakers/amp are likely soon to follow.

 

[payocrarl]

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