Ceton InfiniTV4 Cable Card Tuner

sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I just saw this write-up on Engadget and I want one. It's a review of an upcoming HTPC cable card adapter that allows you to record up to 4 channels of HD programming from your cable provider at the same time.

I love FIOS service but I've become very frustrated with my Verizon FIOS supplied DVR and it's tiny 20 hours (160GB) of recording capacity and problems with the menu locking up. I'd been just about to pull the trigger on a $500 TIVO HD Premiere XL (150 hours) when I started reading reports that they shipped the Premiere before it was ready. Reports that the software is not ready for primetime, that it's unfinished and they had to disable the 2nd CPU core for the time being leaving it painfully slow. So far I haven't seen a solid ETA for the finished/fully functional software and I'm not about to spend $800 (with subscription) for a TIVO that may or may not ever work right - especially when the company isn't all that financially solid. That leaves me waiting until the first of the year for a 40 hour FIOS DVR - or maybe not...

I have a dedicated HTPC sitting out in my storage shed that I could put back to work if/when this tuner hits the market and lives up to expectations. It has a Core 2 Duo CPU, 2 GB of RAM so horsepower shouldn't be an issue. I suspect that 4 data streams would be too much for an Atom CPU but who knows. Drop in a 2TB HD for 200+ hours of recording and maybe a small 30GB SSD for the OS. The card is expensive but cheaper than a TIVO Premiere XL and half the price of a Premiere XL with life of the box service, and I already have the HTPC and a Windows 7 license for it.

Oh well until the Ceton InfiniTV4 actually hits the market I'm just thinking out loud.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I think I heard about it a while ago but ignored as vaporware, but now pre-orders are being taken it seems less so.. :D
Its curious Engadget made it work with FIOS (after little troubleshooting), I kinda expected it to be not compatible.....

Anyhow - for $400 - It may be promising product could help me switch from my antique SA-8300 DVR which I'm paying $10 monthly :mad:
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Just Curious,
Some Anonymous Good Samaritan just left me Pos Rep for my previous post, without any comments :confused: and my rep jumped 2000 points up :eek::confused:


Will the real slim shady please stand up....
 
Porschefan

Porschefan

Audioholic Intern
I just saw this write-up on Engadget and I want one. It's a review of an upcoming HTPC cable card adapter that allows you to record up to 4 channels of HD programming from your cable provider at the same time.

I love FIOS service but I've become very frustrated with my Verizon FIOS supplied DVR and it's tiny 20 hours (160GB) of recording capacity and problems with the menu locking up. I'd been just about to pull the trigger on a $500 TIVO HD Premiere XL (150 hours) when I started reading reports that they shipped the Premiere before it was ready. Reports that the software is not ready for primetime, that it's unfinished and they had to disable the 2nd CPU core for the time being leaving it painfully slow. So far I haven't seen a solid ETA for the finished/fully functional software and I'm not about to spend $800 (with subscription) for a TIVO that may or may not ever work right - especially when the company isn't all that financially solid. That leaves me waiting until the first of the year for a 40 hour FIOS DVR - or maybe not...

I have a dedicated HTPC sitting out in my storage shed that I could put back to work if/when this tuner hits the market and lives up to expectations. It has a Core 2 Duo CPU, 2 GB of RAM so horsepower shouldn't be an issue. I suspect that 4 data streams would be too much for an Atom CPU but who knows. Drop in a 2TB HD for 200+ hours of recording and maybe a small 30GB SSD for the OS. The card is expensive but cheaper than a TIVO Premiere XL and half the price of a Premiere XL with life of the box service, and I already have the HTPC and a Windows 7 license for it.

Oh well until the Ceton InfiniTV4 actually hits the market I'm just thinking out loud.
Hi,

You sound like you have a lot more experience in this area than I do, but I'm thinking along the same lines as you. I first heard about the Ceton InfiniTV 4 on a Twit podcast on home theaters. A very high-end systems integrator, Paul Heitlinger, CTO of S1 Digital, was using these cards (or planning to use them) to build very expensive home media servers. Link to podcast

After hearing about these and finding out that S1 Digital products were WAY out of my budget, I've been poking around to find out more about these. At this point, my understanding is that they ARE in production and they are WILDLY in demand--there's a long line of pre-orders to fill. I haven't gone so far as to order one yet, as I have a lot to learn about putting together an HTPC before I start ordering components.

I'm not quite a complete newbie at this, having put together my first and very modest home theater system a couple of years ago. When I started on that project, I explored using an HTPC but at that time the learning curve and the capabilities available just didn't seem to make enough sense. So I ended up with a Yamaha receiver, a PS3 (now an LG BD player and a Roku box). Speakers are a pretty nice set of Def Techs: BP30, CLR 2000 and BPVX's that I accumulated on the used market. It's not top-of-the line by any means, but it suits my ears and my budget OK. (Oh, I did have a pair of Magnepan QR 1.6's that I found and bought intending to use as my front speakers powered by an old Halfer Transnova 9505, but when we moved from California to New Mexico, I put the Def Techs and the Maggies up for sale and the Maggies sold. When I demo'd them for the buyer I knew I would wish I had never let them go--I LOVE the sound of the magneplanar speakers....but I digress.)

What's really gotten me thinking that it might be time to go back to the HTPC concept at this time are:

a) the availability of the Ceton card
b) an EXTREME dislike of relying on and paying Comcast every month for two crappy set top boxes/DVR's.
c) the appearance that we are reaching "critical mass" in the TV/Internet convergence that has been being predicted for so many years.

Comcast charges me $16/month EACH for two boxes/DVR's. An HTPC with a Ceton card would lower that to $8 for a single cable card.

Of course, there's the cost of buying/building a PC and at least one media extender box to stream recordings from Windows Media Center to my second (bedroom) TV/audio setup (another Yamaha, Roku and some cheap Yamaha speakers). Not insignificant with the Ceton card going for $400.00 by itself.

Technically, I need to understand the interconnection between a HTPC/Media center and the rest of the equipment better. I'm not quite grokking (yes, I'm that old... ;-)), how all these components fit together. Obviously the Ceton goes into the HTPC and the cable connection is made directly to that. Windows Media Center then takes care of recording and playback on any/all of the 4 channels available.

But from there, I'm a bit in the dark. How is the hookup to the AV receiver made? How do I get the audio/video from Comcast's broadcasts into the AV receiver and out to the TV and the speakers? Or does the HTPC REPLACE the receiver? And is that a good idea?

I've been looking around the net for advice and picking up tidbits here and there, but I'm running into this kind of fundamental lack of understanding of how the pieces fit together. Maybe someone here can chime in.

If I can figure out a way to get this working, I would be able to drop Comcast back down to the lowest possible TV package and not rely on them for anything in the way of equipment. Or maybe even hook up an OTA antenna and get local HD broadcasts and stream anything else I want via content providers on the web....if I can only get Lakers games :eek:.

Anyway, maybe I can get some feedback from this forum and get a better handle on all of this.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
1st off I'm not paying $400 for an MOCUR Cable Card solution for the PC.

SiliconDust Homerun Prime will hopefully be out sometime this year. I think the magic price point will be $200-250. I am simply going to wait for some competition to show up. It's only cable tv folks.
 
S

stealthrt

Audioholic Intern
I agree that $400+ ($600+ on eBay!) is way too much for a quad TV tuner for a computer. And i was surprised that it worked on FiOS as well but sadly i have not been able to get any information about my fiber optics here (EPB FI). I'm not sure if its the same as Verizon's hookup but i dont think it is.

I'd take jinjuku advice and wait to see what SiliconDust comes out with :)

David
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
But from there, I'm a bit in the dark. How is the hookup to the AV receiver made? How do I get the audio/video from Comcast's broadcasts into the AV receiver and out to the TV and the speakers? Or does the HTPC REPLACE the receiver? And is that a good idea?
I'm as in the dark as anybody. I stumbled over this researching replacements for a replacement for my FIOS TV (Verizon's flavor of cable TV) DVR. The FIOS DVR is limited to 40 hours at most. I looked at the top of the line 150 hour TIVO but the forums seem to suggest it's a bug-fest. I briefly considered the Ceton card cable card tuner which requires you to rent and insert a "cable card" from your cable company. That's how it connects. The TIVO does works the same way. In the end I decided to stay with my FIOS DVR because I did not want to give up the video on demand features. Verizon partly makes up for the p-poor DVR (another buggy mess) by recording and storing popular shows at there end for free video on demand.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I'm as in the dark as anybody. I stumbled over this gizmo researching for a replacement for my FIOS TV DVR (Verizon's flavor of cable TV). The buggy FIOS DVR is limited to 40 hours at most. I looked at the top of the line 150 hour TIVO but the forums seem to suggest it's a bigger bug-fest. I briefly considered the Ceton cable card tuner which requires you to rent and insert a "cable card" from your cable company - that's how it connects to the cable system. The TIVO works the same way. In the end I decided to stay with my FIOS DVR because I did not want to give up the video on demand features. Verizon partly makes up for the p-poor DVR by recording and storing popular shows at their end as free video on demand and those aren't accessible via cable card.
I looked at this again and it has to be the most incoherent typos filled mess I've ever typed sober. Fixed above.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
My manager ordered one of these a month and a half ago. He supposed to get his in February. I'll let ya know how it'll pan-out ...
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
It does look interesting, but I have to say I'm with jinjuku on this one - $400 is way too much for me to be interested in. That's the same price as 2 2TB external drives on which I could simply download torrents of every show my wife or I care about (with the commercials already deleted by concientious DVR magicians all over the world) - and watch the rest on Hulu Plus or one of the competitors.

I guess if it really worked flawlessly it might be worth it, but when you consider that a mainstream dual-tuner card is less than 30% of the cost - the software and compatibility had better be exceptional. Yes, I realize a CableCard solution is different - but the encoding and operational firmware are similar - so the cost = ??

The biggest question I have is what are you writing those streams to? If you have 4 full HD transport streams being written to disk simultaneously - and you're using a Windows box... I can see issues from saturated disk IO occurring unless you have both a RAID and separated system and data drives. Although this is pretty standard fare for someone who feels they NEED to record 4 HD streams at once - it's definitely not something that fits easily in your run-of-the-mill HTPC case. And if you're using a NAS somewhere else in the house for storage... that's going to be an even bigger problem than local storage bandwidth.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
It does look interesting, but I have to say I'm with jinjuku on this one - $400 is way too much for me to be interested in. That's the same price as 2 2TB external drives on which I could simply download torrents of every show my wife or I care about (with the commercials already deleted by concientious DVR magicians all over the world) - and watch the rest on Hulu Plus or one of the competitors.
Several people mentioned here as they have two or three cable boxes in their houses $400 - is very small ONE TIME investment over monthly reoccurring high cablebox fees. For some people $400 price will be worth it under one year...
Why not torrents? Besides being illegal and taking the chance of being fined or/and other legal issue at least here in states, not every single show or sport event is ripped and shared.

I guess if it really worked flawlessly it might be worth it, but when you consider that a mainstream dual-tuner card is less than 30% of the cost - the software and compatibility had better be exceptional. Yes, I realize a CableCard solution is different - but the encoding and operational firmware are similar - so the cost = ??
I'm not an expert but the difference is real-time decryption which clear QAM tuner don't do, plus I assume some third-party licensing fees etc...

The biggest question I have is what are you writing those streams to? If you have 4 full HD transport streams being written to disk simultaneously - and you're using a Windows box... I can see issues from saturated disk IO occurring unless you have both a RAID and separated system and data drives. Although this is pretty standard fare for someone who feels they NEED to record 4 HD streams at once - it's definitely not something that fits easily in your run-of-the-mill HTPC case. And if you're using a NAS somewhere else in the house for storage... that's going to be an even bigger problem than local storage bandwidth.
I think you are over-thinking this one - my home HD-DVR - SA-8300 with OLD single 7200rpm 160gb hard-drive can comfortably record simultaneously record TWO HD channels and play pre-recorded third one without any delays....
I guess Four Hd recordings could be a bit of stretch for single drive, but surely not for simple two disk striped array
 
digicidal

digicidal

Full Audioholic
Why not torrents? Besides being illegal and taking the chance of being fined or/and other legal issue at least here in states, not every single show or sport event is ripped and shared.
...
I'm not an expert but the difference is real-time decryption which clear QAM tuner don't do, plus I assume some third-party licensing fees etc...
...
I think you are over-thinking this one - my home HD-DVR - SA-8300 with OLD single 7200rpm 160gb hard-drive can comfortably record simultaneously record TWO HD channels and play pre-recorded third one without any delays....
I guess Four Hd recordings could be a bit of stretch for single drive, but surely not for simple two disk striped array
You are quite right about the bandwidth... I guess I was over-thinking... the issue would only be in the encoding itself - since 1X BR transfers at 4.5MB/sec and that's enough for 1080p... I'm sure you could safely write 10-15 streams if the drive mechanics were up to the seeking tasks involved in swapping back and forth between the files.

As far as the torrent issue - I understand completely... however, given the numerous legal wranglings that have been attempted over the past 30 years as far as recording media and broadcast programming are concerned - you're not much safer with a DVR full of recorded shows either. Unless you can conclusively prove that you've never played them for anyone other than residents of your house (and that you've maintained the appropriate service level required at all times subsequent to the recording, and/or deleted all content no longer covered by your current service level).

However, I defer to your insight in these issues - as I've stated, TV just doesn't do it for me personally for the most part - and even if it did... I'm a pretty patient guy as far as waiting for DVD/BR box set releases. Granted if I liked many shows the $400 would indeed be exceeded pretty quickly - but I still think the quality and ease of retrieval would at least rival if not exceed that of this solution.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
My manager Ceton card was finally shipped few days ago and he should receive his on Thursday/Friday.
Expect mini review early next week
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
So here's the long waited review of Ceton quad tuner card (And of WMC 7)
So the card finally is here - it works well, with one big problem still waiting to be resolved.

Good stuff first:
Install was pretty straightforward (just follow video guide), PQ is good and there's virtually no delay of switching channels. Four tuners work as promised.
Rest of review will be more about WMC and connectors.
Unlike cable, TV guide shows up with one button not two presses. While watching one channel arrow up will bring mini guide showing schedule for 3 channels, including 1-2 next shows/movies on these channels.
DVR functionality is much more advanced than cable - then again almost anyone is better than cable dvr.
Regarding Windows Center Media connectors - e.g Xbox - Yes - You can watch live TV over the lan and YES you can set you DVR record schedule from xbox as well.

Issue:
For some reason the tuner haven't fully synced it's security keys with providers and as result for now only OTA none-drmed channels are open.
We still looking into the issue and have few potential angles to check.

Edit:
This could potential issue with firewall rules. It looks like part of CableCard DRM scheme is involving external server you PC must able communicate to using specific ports [details in ceton troubleshoot guide] ...
 
Last edited:
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Update:
Problem above finally resolved: Conclusion - don't try to install CableCard (CC) yourself, even if you're VERY Tech person (One Exception - You actually tech work for Cable Company)
During self install, on initial peering call to Cable - Operator missed single digit in serial number... just a zero.... No biggie right? wrong !

Long story short, He called to schedule onsite tech. Then called again to dispatcher to mention than "tech support suggested to bring extra CC for arriving tech" - which is 100% BS, but it worked fine.
Cable tech did arrive with spare CC and swapped existing for new one, one hour on phone hold for proper activation -> All works now.
HD channels looks same as on cablebox.
Next project:
Looking now for plugin to allow remote web browser programing for WMC.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Update 2:
I guess we didn't have full picture yesterday. From latest bits and pieces I picked up - I have a bit better picture of the process:
CableCard+Ceton Tuner+WMC system actually includes TWO separate and independent DRM systems:
One between CC+Tuner and your Cable company - this one doesn't need any internet connectivity - it works OOB - Out of band on same coax cable.
However WMC7 DRM system is totally different beast. This one makes sure you could both WATCH and Record TV shows only on this specific machine - last one most concerned with encrypted channels and believe or not, there is not too many of these. My manager still trying to figure it all out and I'll post updates as soon as I have new info.

FIY: If your cable company tells you do perform self install of CC, asking them to do it for you will cost you extra 30-40 dollars for service call.
However if you "attempt" to do it yourself, then "fail" and call for service - it would be free :D
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Update 3: and Final one.
The problem was traced to my manager had Windows 7 N edition,
reinstall to regular win 7 and reactiation of WMC OCUR fixed all remaining issues :D
 

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