Speakers for 2ch music system........budget $1K - $2k

[zumbo]

The amp section in the Outlaw is going to be superior to anything I know of for 2.1 at it's price-point.

I know you are not just going to jump right on this recommendation, but do give it some serious thought.

The Outlaw is capable of running 4ohm speakers. It will go from 100W to 160W doing so. I use the same model line of 4ohm speakers I am recommending. They are handmade in Germany, 3/4" MDF, real wood veneers, and have one of the best tweeters you will ever hear.

I am linking the set available on ebay because the price is lower than at the store. The seller on ebay has a website as well, and has been selling original MB Quart since at least '02. There is a make an offer tab. I would use it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-Quart-QLS-530-6-5-2-Way-S-Line-Bookshelf-Speaker-/150449294364?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item23077a0c1c

I would recommend any one of the sealed box subs from SV for this application.
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12nsd.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb13plus.cfm

There is an SB12-Plus that is coming-out that should fall in the middle of the two price-points above.

This, along with the Outlaw, will exceed your expectations.

You could also opt for any of the internet direct speaker companies for the bookshelf speakers. The only plus in my opinion would be a return policy. None of the ID companies will be able to provide you with handmade German quality.

The stock of these MB Quart German made gems is running low, and the new models cost waaaaaay more.
New model:
http://www.german-maestro.de/US/ms_b_one.htm

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually, 20Hz-20kHz is just an arbitrary range that was chosen because that is what humans generally can hear. As we get older, that narrows considerably, especially if we have been expose to loud sounds. There is actually some information that exists that because of the use of headphones/earphones among the youth, that this range will be even worse with them.

So what is the scientifically accepted/adjusted frequency range for humans these days?

25Hz - 15kHz?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How well respected of an amp is the Outlaw??

ATI (Amplifier Technologies Inc) makes amps for Outlaw Audio as well as for Lexicon & JBL and "half a dozen" companies.

I would buy the ATI amps from Classic Audio Parts on Audiogon since they are a true ATI authorized dealer and you get the full 7-yr parts & labor warranty.

These amps are great and well-respected.

 

[zumbo]

ATI (Amplifier Technologies Inc) makes amps for Outlaw Audio as well as for Lexicon & JBL and "half a dozen" companies.

I would buy the ATI amps from Classic Audio Parts on Audiogon since they are a true ATI authorized dealer and you get the full 7-yr parts & labor warranty.

These amps are great and well-respected.

He is looking @ the Outlaw 2.1 receiver.

Let's try not to confuse the thread please!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He is looking @ the Outlaw 2.1 receiver.

Let's try not to confuse the thread please!

DOH!!!!

My bad.

 

[Swerd]

I’m chiming in somewhat late in this thread…

I was among the earlier SongTower owners, but I had heard them before buying. Almost as soon as I heard them, I made up my mind I wanted to buy them, and at that time I wasn’t considering buying speakers at all! I’m not an impulse buyer – since 1973 I’ve owned 3 different pairs of speakers. I’ve had my STs for more than 3 years now, and I am as enthusiastic about them as I was when they first arrived. I can’t recommend them enough. You seem to have read a lot about these speakers. The glowing comments from happy owners are genuine. Have you read my owner’s impression thread? See the link in my signature line below.

Everything you've read about dealing with Jim Salk is also true. I've met him twice and he is without doubt a class act. I am friends with the ST designer, Dennis Murphy. That's how I first heard these speakers.

As far the other speakers you mentioned, I’m not familiar with the Martin Logans or that specific Paradigm model (I’ve heard others), but I have heard the B&W 683 and several Totems.

I think some of the B&W 800 series speakers are good, but not any of the 600 series, including the 683. They compare poorly to the SongTowers. If you think the Paradigm Monitor 9 is close to the B&W 683, then I can guess that it would also compare poorly to the STs.

The Totems are a better speaker line in general, but they are expensive. I think the Arro and Sttaf are good speakers, but not as good as the SongTower. The Hawk however is closer in sound quality to the ST, in my opinion. I’m not sure what Totems cost in Anchorage.

As far as amps go, the Yamaha you mentioned looks good on paper and could easily drive SongTowers. I’ve not encountered that model, but I’d be very surprised if it were no good. What does it cost you there? I don’t know anything about the Naim.

For perhaps less money, I can recommend Outlaw RR2150 http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html . It is an integrated 2-channel receiver that includes subwoofer hook-up and bass management control features. It has similar power output to the Yamaha. I have a neighbor who uses the RR2150 with a pair of his own SongTowers. It works very well. This neighbor heard my speakers, and asked me to help him get “what you have”. He is very happy with the receiver and speakers.

I love Anchorage and the rest of Alaska too! I spent two years there in 1973-75 while I was in the Navy, stationed at Elemendorf AFB. I seriously considered staying there, but ended up leaving when I was discharged. I still often think about that place.

 

[KEW]

So what is the scientifically accepted/adjusted frequency range for humans these days?

25Hz - 15kHz?

I don't think you can really make a generality like this that means anything.

Think about vision. 20/20 is considered normal, good vision - but we know some people have better and many have worse.

Just as 20/20 vision is a arbitrary expectation, so is 20-20K Hz. It is my understanding that 20-20K represents very, very good hearing. But that is not to say nobody can hear outside that range.

I am by no means an expert, but I think I can safely make some generalized statements.
We generally assume that our hearing deteriorates as we age. This is often the case, but it is far from a given. I believe the final word is that age-related hearing loss (presbycusis) is genetic and there are plenty of people who do not experience significant hearing loss as they age.
Obviously, exposure to high SPL's causes hearing losses and the longer you have lived, the more likely you have suffered some hearing loss due to exposure. Also, illness, such as an ear infection can cause the tissue of the ear mechanism to thicken (think scar tissue or keloid) or otherwise change in minor ways which can impact hearing. There is also an association between diabetes and hearing loss.

 

[KEW]

The amp section in the Outlaw is going to be superior to anything I know of for 2.1 at it's price-point.

I would go one farther and say that the Outlaw is the only stereo receiver anywhere near its price point that provides proper flexibility and support for 2.1 systems. Unless you want to spend more money and go for separates, I'd consider it to be "the only game in town".

It is a very intelligent product that recognizes the benefits of bass management of subwoofer and mains in a modern stereo system.

 

[clouso]

I still think you'd need a sub with any of the models you've looked at. Anyway, I imagine the Ascend Acoustics tower will be awesome when it comes out, but that's just based on what I've been reading.

Any damn speakers up to even 10000$ needs a sub or two better"...MOO...its a new one..MOO...my own opinion.......have a happy knew year!!

 

[3db]

Your towers are?

Muppets double bass don't count.

PSB T45s. I thought everyone on here knew that.

 

[InTheIndustry]

A LONG reply with lots to consider....

He guys.....thanks for the many recommendations and advice. Per your request, here is some more info......

My listening room is/will be my living room. I have yet to buy a house in AK. I will have a house this summer. More than likely my living room will be that of a great room variety. Additionally, I suspect my great room will have hardwood floors (w/ center rug). My last house had a great room that measured 16'x23'. My next home should be similar in size. The roof will prob be vaulted, but no cathedral ceilings. My listening style is 75% passive / 25% active. I want something I can crank while doing weekend chores, bumming around the house, or when I the mood; sit down and listen to a killer disc.

Regarding my musical tastes....it is vast. However, I have a good collection of bebop and cool jazz cd's. The majority of my jazz cd's are of the funk/70's/fusion variety though.....ie. Scofield, Herbie Hancock, the Meters, Galactic, Jeff Beck, Steve Kimock, the Slip, etc. Additionally, I have a good collection of jamband cd's such as the Dead, Phish, WS Panic, etc. I also like bluegrass, country, and some modern indie rock.....along with some good ol' *** kicking rock n roll.

At this point, I am not 100% sold on a pair of towers. I can be persuaded into getting a set of nice monitor/bookshelfs with a sub. I have seen the Outlaw before online. How well respected of an amp is the Outlaw?? Would a nice set of bookshelf monitors with a sub better suite my needs??? I found some nice PCMs bookshelf monitors on Audiogon for a nice price....PCMs peak my interest.

Thank you for the information.

At 1st glance this looks like a tough project......

Your Budget + Large Cubic' Room Size might NOT = Your needs/Wants.

Everyone listens to music differently these days and what I mean by that is that different sources are available and as they have become more popular, technology has evolved. You and I, however, seem to listen to music similarly. Here is what I would do and this 100% contains my values mixed in, but that's only because I do not know your exact tastes or familiarity with technology.

If you were a client of mine with your starting budget here's what I would recommend & show you assuming you had a wireless router and a PC/laptop, iPhone/Touch, or iPad.....

AMP & SOURCE
- You mentioned a $1200 integrated amp. I would NOT do the Yamaha. I would recommend to you this set up instead: http://signalpathint.com/index.php/Nova/Nova.html + http://sonos.com/products/zoneplayers/zp90/default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033 + http://sonos.com/products/zonebridge/Default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033

What is all of this?

- This is an incredible integrated amp with an amazing DAC (read the reviews & company info on it to better understand what it does) from a great manufacturer. Peachtree audio is part of Signal Path which also makes ERA speakers. They are really great people who genuinely care about audio and are happy to talk to you if you have questions. I recommend them highly!

- The other two pieces are from Sonos. This allows you to put your CD collection on a PC, stream it from Rhapsody service (I would recommend), and listen to internet radio conveniently and through one interface. Coupled with the PeachTree NOVA it's an AMAZING sounding setup that also offers a sleek look and design (the Sonos player actually resides in a bay in the back of the amp) and perfectly powered for a pair of $1-$2K speakers. The SONOS unit would be your primary source so no need for a stand alone CD player. The Nova will take a record player if you ever get into vinyl as well.

Total retail on the amp & source would be around $1700. I'm sure you can find a decent deal from a dealer to make this more manageable. If that pushes you a bit, I would step down to the refurbished Decco which will save you a few hundred $. Both are similar (save for power ratings) and absolutely incredibly, unique, fine pieces of equipment.

The refurbished Decco & Nova are $500 & $1000 on Peachtree's website. My 1st experience with this company was in a rep's office using a Decco & a $2000 pair of Totem Staff in Cherry. We listened to Steely Dan through the Sonos and it was AMAZING. The demo has stuck with me as something that was a truly unique digital audio experience.

Speakers......

DavidTwoTrees, I think, hit the nail on the head by recommending Canton as a speaker brand to strongly consider. Canton has the build quality you seek: Everything, even the magnets, are made & engineered in Germany. Canton offers incredible sound quality from a speaker unsurpassed in build quality, fit & finish.

I would recommend another brand as well: Phase Technology. Their PC 1.5 got a great review in Home Theater Magazine: http://www.hometheater.com/content/phase-technology-pc-15-speaker-system . This brand is engineered and made in the USA as well. Excellent built quality from a brand that has HUGE respect & an excellent track record in speaker manufacturing & OEM.

I would recommend these from Phase Technology: http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=PC-9.5 . They are the full-range version of the PC1.5 and retail at around $3500. DON'T let that worry you. A good dealer can get them to you for around $2000. From Canton I would go with the Ergo 607 DC: http://www.canton.de/en/hifi/ergo/produkt/ergo670dc.htm These are $2500 a pair but should be able to be purchased for $2K or less from a dealer.

If a real wood finish was not a major concern, the Canton GLE 409.2 is an incredible value at $1400 a pair and, IMO, a better speaker than the higher priced Ergo I recommended. It just isn't 100% solid wood cabinet, but has lots of solid veneers available. These are beautiful speakers and a much much better value. http://www.canton.de/en/hifi/gleserie/produkt/gle490.2.htm

Dollar for Dollar the Nova, Sonos, GLE 409.2 is an incredible set up that should be around your budget. If you can stretch your budget than the Nova, Sonos, Phase Technology PC 9.5 setup would be a notch up there as well. The Phase Tech PC9.5 is a speaker in a different price category than the Canton Ergo & GLE and offers a smoother presentation of sound as well as very unique crossover. Either of these will surpass expectations for the money in performance and build quality. But, keep in mind, these are two different speakers and price categories. They are equals only in being outstanding in their price brackets. I would NOT do the Decco & Phase Tech speakers. The Decco and Canton GLE should be fine. The Decco2 is a great product as well, but the orriginal Decco is a little more powerful and a lower price.

NOTES: As far as adding a sub goes.... yes, sure, maybe, in theory.... but until you get your room who knows which one.... or two & where to place it/them? And, at that point, perhaps if your room is smaller it would be wi$e to switch to monitors? Your budget and sound quality concerns are not friendly to adding subwoofers to start, regardless.

Also – A definite NO on Totem. They are excellent speakers and on par (NOT better, but on par) with the other two I mentioned in terms of sound & build, for sure. But Totem 2 channel is for a specific person & room. For your estimated size room and material, properly prescribed Totems would be unrealistically out of your budget.

Here are some really good videos from Phase Tech explaining their speaker technology. Ken Hecht doing the video is the president of the company (his father, Bill invented the soft dome tweeter) and is a great person and incredible speaker engineer. A very practical manufacturer that makes a great product. Never have I been dissapointed. For many different reasons Phase Tech is my favorite speaker manufacturer by far.

Phase Technology Flat Piston Drivers & why they use them: http://www.youtube.com/user/MSEAudioGroup#p/u/0/yJuYUrc5kEE

Phase Technology Absolute Phase Crossover: http://www.youtube.com/user/MSEAudioGroup#p/u/6/ZsrwJ1MXaHE


Hope this helps you enjoy shopping for your new system. Lots to consider!

 

[TommyTom83]

OK, so I have been lurking here for weeks reading, researching....more reading, researching to the point of exhaustion with no end in sight. A typical night of "research" leads me down 10 other paths I had no clue where there. There are just too many choices!! Which is a good thing btw!! Since I am starting to pull my hair out trying to pick out my speakers, I figured now would be a good time to post. So here goes......

Out of all my research, the one thing I feel to be consistent is the recommendation to not skimp on speaker selection. I mean, speakers are where the rubber hits the road so to speak....right??? The main problem I am having is trying to weed out which speakers are overpriced pieces of junk, and which ones are actually worth the $$. From my limited involvement in the hifi world, I feel that there is a great deal of this hoopla to weed thru. There seems to a good number of extremely well marketed "hifi" speaker companies selling nothing more than overpriced Chinese made fibre boxes with crap components. All it takes is a website, some paid reviews, a heft price so it appears to be quality; and whoola, and your off to the races. Please dont take me the wrong way, I know that not all of the stuff coming from China is crap. I know there are reputable speaker manufactures who outsource to China that make quality gear. I understand economics.....so no need to turn this into a USA made -vs- Chinese made debate. Again, I am just trying to figure out which companies are putting out a "quality" Chinese product if thats all my budget will allow me. Ideally, I would prefer something not made in China, period. USA or CAN made would be ideal. Minimally, at least something assembled in the USA or CAN.

Coming from a musicians background, I understand basic speaker and amp specs. My (integral) amp of choice is this; Yamaha A-S1000. I have pretty much made my mind up on my amp choice. I can get this one locally, and its priced right. FWIW, I think the yammie is made in JAP and not China. The yammie seems to be a pretty decent mid-level competent. I can bi-amp it - and it will go down to 4ohms. The only other amp I am considering is the Naim NAIT 5i. I have heard nothing but rave reviews about this guy. The only thing I dont know about it is if it will handle a continuous 4ohm load. The Naim will push me over budget.....sooo, I am prob going to stick with the yammie.

OK, getting back to speakers. Here are my must haves;

MUST BE BETWEEN $1K AND $2K
MUST HAVE REAL WOOD VENEERS, NO VINYL
MUST HAVE DIRECT SALES - OR A BROAD, EASILY ACCESSIBLE DEALER NETWORK (I live in Anchorage, AK)
MUST BE A REPUTABLE COMPANY.....NO FLY-BY-NIGHTERS
2 TOWERS ONLY......MUST BE CAPABLE W/O A SUB

I have auditioned a few speakers....I auditioned the;

B&W 683's ($1500 pair)
Paradigm Monitor 9's ($900 pair)
Martin Logan Motion 12's ($1500 pair)
Martin Logan ESL Source ($2000 pair)

Speakers I am most intrigued about on-line are;

Salk Song Towers ($2000 pair)
Totem Staff/Arrows ($$ ??)

Regarding the speakers I auditioned, it was a toss up between the digm 9's and the bw 683's. The only deal is, I was unable to audition both speakers side-x-side as they are sold at different stores. I know bw is a well respected speaker co....they have been in biz for a long time. There speakers sound good. But man, it just burns my nipple to pay $1500 for a vinyl wrapped fibre board box loaded with Chinese made drivers. I am certain there is $1500 worth of engineering in the box....there is no way that a pair of 683's cost b&w more than $4-500 to manufacture and ship to the USA....just my speculation, thats all. The digm's seemed to be a bit more in-line to what a box in this class should cost. And from what I can gather, there stuff is made in CAN. I am not certain if their drivers are made in CAN.....but I think they are from what I have read?? The digm 9 had a sounded great from what I can gather.....it just would have been nice to do sid-x-side with the b&w. As far as the vinyl veener, the b&w is a waaay better looking speaker than the digm. I liked the cherry veneer on the b&w. The digm does not have a real presentable cherry finish. The digm did have a magnet grille where the b&w had a friction fit pronged grille.

I was unimpressed with the ML motion 12's, both sound and fit/finish. I enjoyed the electro-static sources.....but I thought the fit finish was horrible. I am not paying $2k for a pair of vinyl wrapped speakers....sorry!!

Regarding my on-line choices, I have heard nothing but great things about Salk. With Salk; I get real wood veneers, capable towers, made in the USA, and person to person customer service. The only down sides are I am unable to demo before I purchase and the cost......it pushes me to my budget. Again, if the speaker really is worth the extra $$, then it's a no-brainer......but, if I can be just as happy with a pair of digm's for 1/2 cost, well then???????

The Totems I know little about, however in my research its one name I keep seeing pop up all the time. So, whatever you would like to share about Totem, please do.

Thanks for all of your help!!!

As for your concern about the b&w speakers coming from china, here is a quote from an audio mag doing a review on the 683's ", the 600series is manufactured in China in a factory owned and managed by B&W. But its design and engineering work remains firmly rooted in the U.K. " This also from what I have been told my multiple dealers the same factory in which Rotel is made. I own a set of 683's and I love them the more they sound better as they wear in. I do agree tho I wish they had real wood finishes. Have you checked out the CM series?

 

[zumbo]

As for your concern about the b&w speakers coming from china, here is a quote from an audio mag doing a review on the 683's ", the 600series is manufactured in China in a factory owned and managed by B&W. But its design and engineering work remains firmly rooted in the U.K. " This also from what I have been told my multiple dealers the same factory in which Rotel is made. I own a set of 683's and I love them the more they sound better as they wear in. I do agree tho I wish they had real wood finishes. Have you checked out the CM series?

As I have said many times here, I have a friend who I helped build an HT with the 683s. I recommended he use what I use, but I have the feeling he thought the name recognition, along with all those drivers were going to smoke my system. Not even close. And, he pretty much won't even come by any more. I am pretty bad(good) at rubbing it in his face.

In my defense, I did help with the entire selection and set-up of the equipment, and I tried desperately to sway away from 600s.

Now to the point.

1) The cabinets/grills are garbage.
2) The tweeters sound decent, but nothing like 800 series. Not even close.
3) The mids are way too forward, and very boxy sounding.
4) The low-end extension is impressive, but muted lacking authority.

As before with the 600/700* series, there is a lot left to desire for the price they are selling for. Much better speakers out there for the money.

*700 series cabinets were very nice, but boxy sounding.

 

[Boerd]

I'd try these two:

NHT four standing towers:
http://www.nhthifi.com/Four_2?sc=12&category=3773

or Canton Ergo 690 DC Tower Speaker

 

[AK907]

Hola fellow Anchorageite. I would recommend staying away from the Yamaha integrated, I think you'd be much better served going with the Outlaw mentioned earlier (I have a 7-channel amp of theirs that I'm very happy with) or looking for a good used integrated or separates on Audiogon such as Musical Fidelity or Aragon among many others. I've seen some pretty good deals on both but especially something like an older Aragon 4004II or 8008 at 200 wpc into 8 ohms and will do 400 wpc into 4 ohms.

Sounds like you've looked at most of the speakers available locally, did you audition Magnepan while at Shimek's? I've owned a pair in the past and loved them.

For the size of room you're looking at I also recommend a 2.1 system, a truly full range tower that has real wood veneer will be outside of your price range. Some monitors that might be worth considering are Onix, there are several on-line reps; my father-in-law has a pair of their Reference 1 monitors in birdseyemaple that sound and look amazing. Come to think about it they have some nice integrated amps too which my father-in-law also owns. You can check out some of their wares at East Street Audio or Skiing Ninja though they aren't the dealers for Alaska, the AK dealer website is down. Ascend and Magi (taking over Sapphire speakers for ACI) are some other good potential ID possibilities.

For the 0.1 part of the system you can do much better on-line than what is available locally. I'm running an SVS which I absolutely love; Hsu, Outlaw, and Epik are some other ID contenders for subs. Before I bought my SVS I had the opportunity to demo one locally in a system that also had a Klipsch Reference sub, for more than double the price the Klipsch wasn't even in the same ball park in terms of accuracy or output.

 

[gajenn]

I'd recommend the emotiva amps with the kef new Q series speakers. check them out to compare with the other great advise you've gottan here.