Speakers for 2ch music system........budget $1K - $2k

[havhon]

OK, so I have been lurking here for weeks reading, researching....more reading, researching to the point of exhaustion with no end in sight. A typical night of "research" leads me down 10 other paths I had no clue where there. There are just too many choices!! Which is a good thing btw!! Since I am starting to pull my hair out trying to pick out my speakers, I figured now would be a good time to post. So here goes......

Out of all my research, the one thing I feel to be consistent is the recommendation to not skimp on speaker selection. I mean, speakers are where the rubber hits the road so to speak....right??? The main problem I am having is trying to weed out which speakers are overpriced pieces of junk, and which ones are actually worth the $$. From my limited involvement in the hifi world, I feel that there is a great deal of this hoopla to weed thru. There seems to a good number of extremely well marketed "hifi" speaker companies selling nothing more than overpriced Chinese made fibre boxes with crap components. All it takes is a website, some paid reviews, a heft price so it appears to be quality; and whoola, and your off to the races. Please dont take me the wrong way, I know that not all of the stuff coming from China is crap. I know there are reputable speaker manufactures who outsource to China that make quality gear. I understand economics.....so no need to turn this into a USA made -vs- Chinese made debate. Again, I am just trying to figure out which companies are putting out a "quality" Chinese product if thats all my budget will allow me. Ideally, I would prefer something not made in China, period. USA or CAN made would be ideal. Minimally, at least something assembled in the USA or CAN.

Coming from a musicians background, I understand basic speaker and amp specs. My (integral) amp of choice is this; Yamaha A-S1000. I have pretty much made my mind up on my amp choice. I can get this one locally, and its priced right. FWIW, I think the yammie is made in JAP and not China. The yammie seems to be a pretty decent mid-level competent. I can bi-amp it - and it will go down to 4ohms. The only other amp I am considering is the Naim NAIT 5i. I have heard nothing but rave reviews about this guy. The only thing I dont know about it is if it will handle a continuous 4ohm load. The Naim will push me over budget.....sooo, I am prob going to stick with the yammie.

OK, getting back to speakers. Here are my must haves;

MUST BE BETWEEN $1K AND $2K
MUST HAVE REAL WOOD VENEERS, NO VINYL
MUST HAVE DIRECT SALES - OR A BROAD, EASILY ACCESSIBLE DEALER NETWORK (I live in Anchorage, AK)
MUST BE A REPUTABLE COMPANY.....NO FLY-BY-NIGHTERS
2 TOWERS ONLY......MUST BE CAPABLE W/O A SUB

I have auditioned a few speakers....I auditioned the;

B&W 683's ($1500 pair)
Paradigm Monitor 9's ($900 pair)
Martin Logan Motion 12's ($1500 pair)
Martin Logan ESL Source ($2000 pair)

Speakers I am most intrigued about on-line are;

Salk Song Towers ($2000 pair)
Totem Staff/Arrows ($$ ??)

Regarding the speakers I auditioned, it was a toss up between the digm 9's and the bw 683's. The only deal is, I was unable to audition both speakers side-x-side as they are sold at different stores. I know bw is a well respected speaker co....they have been in biz for a long time. There speakers sound good. But man, it just burns my nipple to pay $1500 for a vinyl wrapped fibre board box loaded with Chinese made drivers. I am certain there is $1500 worth of engineering in the box....there is no way that a pair of 683's cost b&w more than $4-500 to manufacture and ship to the USA....just my speculation, thats all. The digm's seemed to be a bit more in-line to what a box in this class should cost. And from what I can gather, there stuff is made in CAN. I am not certain if their drivers are made in CAN.....but I think they are from what I have read?? The digm 9 had a sounded great from what I can gather.....it just would have been nice to do sid-x-side with the b&w. As far as the vinyl veener, the b&w is a waaay better looking speaker than the digm. I liked the cherry veneer on the b&w. The digm does not have a real presentable cherry finish. The digm did have a magnet grille where the b&w had a friction fit pronged grille.

I was unimpressed with the ML motion 12's, both sound and fit/finish. I enjoyed the electro-static sources.....but I thought the fit finish was horrible. I am not paying $2k for a pair of vinyl wrapped speakers....sorry!!

Regarding my on-line choices, I have heard nothing but great things about Salk. With Salk; I get real wood veneers, capable towers, made in the USA, and person to person customer service. The only down sides are I am unable to demo before I purchase and the cost......it pushes me to my budget. Again, if the speaker really is worth the extra $$, then it's a no-brainer......but, if I can be just as happy with a pair of digm's for 1/2 cost, well then???????

The Totems I know little about, however in my research its one name I keep seeing pop up all the time. So, whatever you would like to share about Totem, please do.

Thanks for all of your help!!!

 

[gajenn]

I recently purchased KEF Q900's..They are amazing at the price point and with 8" woofers has very good bass. The clarity and detail is just amazing at this price point.

 

[its phillip]

I still think you'd need a sub with any of the models you've looked at. Anyway, I imagine the Ascend Acoustics tower will be awesome when it comes out, but that's just based on what I've been reading.

 

[havhon]

I still think you'd need a sub with any of the models you've looked at. Anyway, I imagine the Ascend Acoustics tower will be awesome when it comes out, but that's just based on what I've been reading.

maybe so on the sub....depends on the room. my goal is to keep it simple. straight up 2 channel system with 2 towers.....old skool

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I mean, speakers are where the rubber hits the road so to speak....right???

Wrong, Speakers ARE the car minus the engine. The make roughly 75-80% of whole SQ.
At this price point you must listed to the speakers, preferably to music you already know well and like. There are lots of choices, internet direct are only good if the company offers in-home 30 days trial with 100% refund (plus/minus shipping)
Your space will also affect the sound and speakers your heard at dealer store might and most likely will sound different once you brought them home.

Regarding brands: As you mentioned Jim Salk product get nothing but highest results. Ascend Acoustics products are also very strong choice.
I'd like to add to this list PSB speakers:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Alpha-Series/Alpha-T1-Tower
Check if they have dealer near you... or right across the border

If you are willing to DIY you could get even more value for your buck with known and well documented speakers projects and kits for example from GR Research. http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=151
Or very interesting project ER18 Project:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531

 

[InTheIndustry]

OK, so I have been lurking here for weeks reading, researching....more reading, researching to the point of exhaustion with no end in sight. A typical night of "research" leads me down 10 other paths I had no clue where there. There are just too many choices!! Which is a good thing btw!! Since I am starting to pull my hair out trying to pick out my speakers, I figured now would be a good time to post. So here goes......

Out of all my research, the one thing I feel to be consistent is the recommendation to not skimp on speaker selection. I mean, speakers are where the rubber hits the road so to speak....right??? The main problem I am having is trying to weed out which speakers are overpriced pieces of junk, and which ones are actually worth the $$. From my limited involvement in the hifi world, I feel that there is a great deal of this hoopla to weed thru. There seems to a good number of extremely well marketed "hifi" speaker companies selling nothing more than overpriced Chinese made fibre boxes with crap components. All it takes is a website, some paid reviews, a heft price so it appears to be quality; and whoola, and your off to the races. Please dont take me the wrong way, I know that not all of the stuff coming from China is crap. I know there are reputable speaker manufactures who outsource to China that make quality gear. I understand economics.....so no need to turn this into a USA made -vs- Chinese made debate. Again, I am just trying to figure out which companies are putting out a "quality" Chinese product if thats all my budget will allow me. Ideally, I would prefer something not made in China, period. USA or CAN made would be ideal. Minimally, at least something assembled in the USA or CAN.

Coming from a musicians background, I understand basic speaker and amp specs. My (integral) amp of choice is this; Yamaha A-S1000. I have pretty much made my mind up on my amp choice. I can get this one locally, and its priced right. FWIW, I think the yammie is made in JAP and not China. The yammie seems to be a pretty decent mid-level competent. I can bi-amp it - and it will go down to 4ohms. The only other amp I am considering is the Naim NAIT 5i. I have heard nothing but rave reviews about this guy. The only thing I dont know about it is if it will handle a continuous 4ohm load. The Naim will push me over budget.....sooo, I am prob going to stick with the yammie.

OK, getting back to speakers. Here are my must haves;

MUST BE BETWEEN $1K AND $2K
MUST HAVE REAL WOOD VENEERS, NO VINYL
MUST HAVE DIRECT SALES - OR A BROAD, EASILY ACCESSIBLE DEALER NETWORK (I live in Anchorage, AK)
MUST BE A REPUTABLE COMPANY.....NO FLY-BY-NIGHTERS
2 TOWERS ONLY......MUST BE CAPABLE W/O A SUB

I have auditioned a few speakers....I auditioned the;

B&W 683's ($1500 pair)
Paradigm Monitor 9's ($900 pair)
Martin Logan Motion 12's ($1500 pair)
Martin Logan ESL Source ($2000 pair)

Speakers I am most intrigued about on-line are;

Salk Song Towers ($2000 pair)
Totem Staff/Arrows ($$ ??)

Regarding the speakers I auditioned, it was a toss up between the digm 9's and the bw 683's. The only deal is, I was unable to audition both speakers side-x-side as they are sold at different stores. I know bw is a well respected speaker co....they have been in biz for a long time. There speakers sound good. But man, it just burns my nipple to pay $1500 for a vinyl wrapped fibre board box loaded with Chinese made drivers. I am certain there is $1500 worth of engineering in the box....there is no way that a pair of 683's cost b&w more than $4-500 to manufacture and ship to the USA....just my speculation, thats all. The digm's seemed to be a bit more in-line to what a box in this class should cost. And from what I can gather, there stuff is made in CAN. I am not certain if their drivers are made in CAN.....but I think they are from what I have read?? The digm 9 had a sounded great from what I can gather.....it just would have been nice to do sid-x-side with the b&w. As far as the vinyl veener, the b&w is a waaay better looking speaker than the digm. I liked the cherry veneer on the b&w. The digm does not have a real presentable cherry finish. The digm did have a magnet grille where the b&w had a friction fit pronged grille.

I was unimpressed with the ML motion 12's, both sound and fit/finish. I enjoyed the electro-static sources.....but I thought the fit finish was horrible. I am not paying $2k for a pair of vinyl wrapped speakers....sorry!!

Regarding my on-line choices, I have heard nothing but great things about Salk. With Salk; I get real wood veneers, capable towers, made in the USA, and person to person customer service. The only down sides are I am unable to demo before I purchase and the cost......it pushes me to my budget. Again, if the speaker really is worth the extra $$, then it's a no-brainer......but, if I can be just as happy with a pair of digm's for 1/2 cost, well then???????

The Totems I know little about, however in my research its one name I keep seeing pop up all the time. So, whatever you would like to share about Totem, please do.

Thanks for all of your help!!!

Something that would be important to know before any serious advice could be shared is a description of the room these are going in & what type of material do you listen to... And from what source?

I can give a detailed account of Totem and a great many other brands as well, but one thing to know is that their products are recommended based on the factors I asked about above. As are many other manufacturers. Over/underbuying happens when people just look at brands and price without considering all of the other factors which determine a speakers sound.

Hope I can help out after we get some more info!

 

[sholling]

I agree with 'its phillip' you'll still need a subwoofer. I own Song Towers and while they play down to ~40hz I cross them over to the sub at 60hz. STs are beautiful speakers and sound wonderful and should for sure be on your short list.

So should the new Ascend Tower. I spent a morning listening to the prototypes and talking with Dave F. and they would be on my short list of candidates once the designed is finished. It looks like solid bamboo will be an option and their bamboo speakers are beautiful.

 

[zumbo]

The fact is, modern quality full-range speakers are very expensive.

Most manufacturers have gone to making quality mids/tweets intended for powered subs. Yes, even towers.

The thing is, bass requires a lot of power. As the massive bass notes suck juice from the amp to reproduce the sound, the high-end section of the speaker suffers while the receiver/amp struggles.

Even if you purchase some of the best towers, way above your budget, that Yammie ain't gonna do it. Don't get me wrong, I love Yammie.

To solve this, the powered sub is here, and here to stay.

The proper solution is a 2.1 system.

The best 2.1 receiver out there is the Outlaw. It is more powerful than the Yamaha, and offers a sub output with bass management. It is about $600 less, which leaves you room for a decent sub in your budget.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

 

[zumbo]

Coming from a musicians background, I understand basic speaker and amp specs. My (integral) amp of choice is this; Yamaha A-S1000. I have pretty much made my mind up on my amp choice. I can get this one locally, and its priced right. FWIW, I think the yammie is made in JAP and not China. The yammie seems to be a pretty decent mid-level competent. I can bi-amp it - and it will go down to 4ohms.

No way to bi-amp a 2-channel int-amp. It only has 2-channels.

 

[zumbo]

Another thing to consider, and take the time to digest this post.

These speakers I am recommending were handmade in Germany. The drivers, crossovers, and cabinets.

The cabinets are 3/4 MDF. They have real wood veneers. They are 4ohm, which will get the most out of the capable Outlaw I listed. Or, even the Yamaha you like.

I have four of the QLS 830's in my system, and they are crossed @ 60. They are super sweet. The titanium tweeter is pure perfection. Listening in 2.1 with my powered sub is absolute pleasure. I have had my speakers since '03, and they have been driven hard by an Adcom 7605 with no issues what-so-ever.

I don't know about the availability in your area, but I will list options I know of. Couldn't hurt to contact them with a shipping quote.

Yawa. This is where I got mine.
http://www.yawaonline.com/mbquql63tosp.html

United:
http://www.unitedonlineshopping.com/mbquql63slit.html

ebay. This is the same dealer. United:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MB-Quart-QLS-830-6-5-3-Way-Tower-Speakers-Pair-New_W0QQitemZ150423012801QQcategoryZ3276QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp5197.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6016508703168975518

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can understand the "made-in-China" feeling.

But keep an open minded.

Most towers require a sub unless they have a built-in subwoofer somewhere.

I auditioned the $23K B&W 800Ds, and I thought they required a subwoofer.

The most important thing is customer service AFTER the purchase and the 30-day return policy.

NHT & Aperion comes to mind.

The NHT Classic Four towers with the additional Active Crossover & Sub-Amplifier can produce bass of 27Hz @ -3dB below 90dB from 1 meter.

The Aperion 6T towers can do 28Hz @ -6dB, which is pretty good.

 

[GranteedEV]

Out of all my research, the one thing I feel to be consistent is the recommendation to not skimp on speaker selection. I mean, speakers are where the rubber hits the road so to speak....right???

Don't forget the room.

I auditioned the $23K B&W 800Ds, and I thought they required a subwoofer.

TI dunno about the 800Ds but looking at the graph for the S800s the somewhat shallow rolloff seems intentional (but dissapointing as it appears tuned at ~26hz which is too high imho). They're probably designed for apartments or small dedicated listening rooms. Which just goes to show that the room is one of the most important factors in the overall sound.

On the bass side of things, flat anechoic response to 20hz... do we really want that in just any ol room?

On the mids and high side of things, do we know anything about how quickly early reflections are going to hit our ears messing with the imaging, timbre, etc?

IMO to get a truly great 2 channel listening you need

1) Multiple subwoofers. Spaced apart.
2) Equalization to get flat IN ROOM response
3) Quality speakers with relatively uniform polar response, flat response from ~300hz to 15khz at the very least.
4) The right balance of diffusion, absorption, diffraction, reflection within a room to get a natural ambience. RTA analysis etc must be done. Bass traps are useful for upper/mid bass but useless for low bass.
5) Electronics sufficient for the job. Nothing overboard.


So to the OP - I recommend rethinking you position if you really want to use your money wisely. Perhaps some bookshelves, four Emotiva Ultra 10 or 12 subs, and leave budget for "the other stuff". The other stuff is NOT tweaking... it's rather significant!

 

[3db]

Most music has very little information below 40Hz with the exception of pipe organ and rap so I'm going to disagree for the need of a sub with 2 channel music. Its not needed.

What did you think of the speakers you auditioned to far? What are the likes and dislikes of what you've heard so far?

PSB offerings in increasing cost.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Image-Series/Image-T6-Tower

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Imagine/Imagine-T-Tower

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony/Synchrony-Two

 

[zumbo]

I can understand the "made-in-China" feeling.

But keep an open minded.

Most towers require a sub unless they have a built-in subwoofer somewhere.

I auditioned the $23K B&W 800Ds, and I thought they required a subwoofer.

The most important thing is customer service AFTER the purchase and the 30-day return policy.

NHT & Aperion comes to mind.

The NHT Classic Four towers with the additional Active Crossover & Sub-Amplifier can produce bass of 27Hz @ -3dB below 90dB from 1 meter.

The Aperion 6T towers can do 28Hz @ -6dB, which is pretty good.

Can you imagine the return cost from Alaska?

Those Aperion are not going to cut it without a sub.

The pure fact is, no tower anywhere near to the budget is going to yield the sound quality of a 2.1 system within the budget.

Also, I have to agree with the OP. The Chinese made junk is junk. I have a friend with 683s. They sound decent, a little forward in the mids for me, but the cabinets and grills are pure junk.

 

[zumbo]

Most music has very little information below 40Hz with the exception of pipe organ and rap so I'm going to disagree for the need of a sub with 2 channel music. Its not needed.

I do not listen to pipe organs or rap. To say any of these speakers, minus the NHT, can make it without a sub is crazy.

Not trying to start a flame war, I am just respectfully disagreeing.

All of those PSB speakers have 5.25" drivers. Are you nuts?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most music has very little information below 40Hz with the exception of pipe organ and rap

I think the Pop, Alternative Rock, and Rock musics I listen to have plenty of bass below 30Hz.

I guess it depends on what kind of songs you like, not just genre.

For example, "Hotel California" from Eagles Hell Freezes Over CD has bass that shakes the walls in my HT room and the rooms adjacent. There is no way that bass is above 30Hz, unless the SPEAKERS canNOT produce bass below 30Hz.

"Don't Dream It's Over" by Sixpence None The Richer has room-shaking bass.

"Six Feet Under" by The Woods has room-shaking bass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can you imagine the return cost from Alaska?

Those Aperion are not going to cut it without a sub.

The pure fact is, no tower anywhere near to the budget is going to yield the sound quality of a 2.1 system within the budget.

Also, I have to agree with the OP. The Chinese made junk is junk. I have a friend with 683s. They sound decent, a little forward in the mids for me, but the cabinets and grills are pure junk.

I thought the return cost was free from anywhere in the USA?

But, yeah, I have a feeling those Aperion towers won't be able to muster up enough bass without a built-in subwoofer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do not listen to pipe organs or rap. To say any of these speakers, minus the NHT, can make it without a sub is crazy.

Not trying to start a flame war, I am just respectfully disagreeing.

It's impossible start a flame war with the Ninjas and Spartans; we are just too desensitized.

 

[zumbo]

I thought the return cost was free from anywhere in the USA?

Continental US.

Looks as though even the initial shipping will incur a fee.

From the Aperion site:
Aperion Audio provides shipping to Alaska for a small fee (usually around $30-$100). We typically use a barge line such as Lynden Transport because it's very cost effective. Transit time is about one week. Please contact us to set up your order.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Continental US.

Looks as though even the initial shipping will incur a fee.

From the Aperion site:
Aperion Audio provides shipping to Alaska for a small fee (usually around $30-$100). We typically use a barge line such as Lynden Transport because it's very cost effective. Transit time is about one week. Please contact us to set up your order.

Learn something new everyday.

I guess Hawaii would also have crazy shipping fees.