Ribbons

[Swerd]

It seems the answer on Infinity abandoning is "they got expensive and when they got cheap again, HK wasn't interested", though given the amount of audio science from HK's top engineers, I don't see how they got overlooked.

It might be marketing, not R&D. Infinity is not HK's top of the line speaker.

 

[Hocky]

Martin Logan has been doing some ribbon tweeter stuff.

Of course, they've moved onto the folded motion technology which is kind of ribbon tweeter-esque.

 

[randyb]

It might be marketing, not R&D. Infinity is not HK's top of the line speaker.

I did read an interview with Kevn Voecks and he said that when developing the Revel line, he was given free rein (by Harman) as to what technology to use....be it ribbon, electrostatic, etc. He did end up with a more conventional approach using domes.

 

[JerryLove]

I did read an interview with Kevn Voecks and he said that when developing the Revel line, he was given free rein (by Harman) as to what technology to use....be it ribbon, electrostatic, etc. He did end up with a more conventional approach using domes.

Did he mention why?

 

[cschang]

Krypton Emit tweeters and wonderful wood veneer cabinets...draw rave reviews......better than any dome tweeters and a lot less than Green Mountains to try.........May also have return priviledges...

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

Not "Krypton Emit tweeter", but "Kapton Ribbon Tweeter". I have heard these before, and IMO, should not be used as a good example.

 

[randyb]

Did he mention why?

I can't remember Jerry. I will try to see if I can find the interview.

One other thing I have heard is that the low cost ribbons are not very good or easy to work with unlike some domes. Again, I think it was Murphy but it could have been someone else that said that.

Update-
Found it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

"dynamic loudspeakers...most accurate"

 

[jostenmeat]

Martin Logan has been doing some ribbon tweeter stuff.

Of course, they've moved onto the folded motion technology which is kind of ribbon tweeter-esque.

Those tweeters need to be vertical, ideally. The sound will disperse along its smallest dimension, and in that orientation, this means up and down, not horizontally.

Those ribbon drivers are actually made by BG, and not by ML.

 

[tom67]

Ribbon speakers

Not "Krypton Emit tweeter", but "Kapton Ribbon Tweeter". I have heard these before, and IMO, should not be used as a good example.

Well, they use the domes in their cheaper speakers, so they know what is best and charge more for the ribbons......Where did you hear the Kaptons before?....probably have perfected them since then.....

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

 

[cschang]

Well, they use the domes in their cheaper speakers, so they know what is best and charge more for the ribbons......Where did you hear the Kaptons before?....probably have perfected them since then.....

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

I have heard the HTD Level 3 in my home before...and in someone else's home as well.

 

[KEW]

FWIW, here are my observations based on A-B comparisons of the Paradigm Signature Beryllium dome, the Focal inverted dome, and the Salk SongTower Ribbon Tweeter:
I don't know if these specific tweeters are necessarily good representations of their kind, but, there is very little audible to distinguish them.
I did find that Focal's inverted dome Be tweeter had a bit better "fullness" in the extreme high frequency (as depicted in chimes), but the difference was extremely subtle.
Likely, there are better RT's than the SongTowers which could equal or better the Focal Be dome.

I cannot say how much to attribute to the driver and how much to the design of the speaker, but the RT as presented in the SongTower was more sensitive to "aiming" than the domes. If you are listening from a specific location, that gives you tighter control over tuning the sound (imaging vs soundstage), but accordingly has a narrower sweet spot.

When comparing the Aluminum dome of the Paradigm Studio series against the Signature series, I could detect audible distortion in the aluminum dome (in the highest frequencies). I never noticed this without another speaker to compare it to. If ribbon tweeters have higher levels of distortion than domes, I never heard it from the SongTowers. This experience would suggest that some ribbon tweeters have lower levels of distortion than some metal dome speakers.

That is my two cents!

 

[j_garcia]

Another highly rated but very expensive speaker with a ribbon is the Aerial 20T v. 2. Interestingly, I think it is the only Aerial with a ribbon.

That is one excellent, but expensive speaker too.

FWIW, here are my observations based on A-B comparisons of the Paradigm Signature Beryllium dome, the Focal inverted dome, and the Salk SongTower Ribbon Tweeter:
I don't know if these specific tweeters are necessarily good representations of their kind, but, there is very little audible to distinguish them.
I did find that Focal's inverted dome Be tweeter had a bit better "fullness" in the extreme high frequency (as depicted in chimes), but the difference was extremely subtle.
Likely, there are better RT's than the SongTowers which could equal or better the Focal Be dome.

GR had a speaker previously that used the Focal Tioxid inverted dome tweeters and they were excellent tweeters at the time. Danny said he stopped using them because they changed them and the price went up. For his higher line, he actully switched to BG ribbon tweeters.

I cannot say how much to attribute to the driver and how much to the design of the speaker, but the RT as presented in the SongTower was more sensitive to "aiming" than the domes. If you are listening from a specific location, that gives you tighter control over tuning the sound (imaging vs soundstage), but accordingly has a narrower sweet spot.

When comparing the Aluminum dome of the Paradigm Studio series against the Signature series, I could detect audible distortion in the aluminum dome (in the highest frequencies). I never noticed this without another speaker to compare it to. If ribbon tweeters have higher levels of distortion than domes, I never heard it from the SongTowers. This experience would suggest that some ribbon tweeters have lower levels of distortion than some metal dome speakers.

That is my two cents!

I compared the Studios to the Signatures back to back as well as to another speaker. The difference in tweeters was one of the primary things for me that differentiate the Sigs from the Studios IMO. I noticed what I consider a harshness in the tweeters on the Studios through most generations. I like them, but they aren't the right speaker for me. The Sigs on the other hand I would have no problem having in my system. The Sigs are a lot cleaner in nearly every category to my ears.

I reviewed the GR N2X which uses the BG ribbon and the highs were the highlight of that speaker, IIRC. They actually sound better when pushed hard.

 

[tom67]

I have heard the HTD Level 3 in my home before...and in someone else's home as well.

That sounds pretty vague to me, but I wont ask you for the name and address....there are people here who own them and like them...zieglj01 posted a few days back and thought they were great....

 

[KEW]

Found it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

"dynamic loudspeakers...most accurate"

Thanks! That is a great article. Nothing said about why they decided to go with domes, but it covers a lot of ground on measurement vs subjective evaluation!

edit - also cover a tremendous number of topics that came up in the Green Mountain Audio thread!

 

[JerryLove]

Thanks! That is a great article. Nothing said about why they decided to go with domes, but it covers a lot of ground on measurement vs subjective evaluation!

Agreed. I go up to their most expensive speaker, and there's that dome staring at me.

 

[Hocky]

Those tweeters need to be vertical, ideally. The sound will disperse along its smallest dimension, and in that orientation, this means up and down, not horizontally.

Those ribbon drivers are actually made by BG, and not by ML.

They're intended for vertical mounting, so that would make dispersion correct. ;-) I use a similar speaker for surrounds. They're not too bad.

 

[cschang]

That sounds pretty vague to me, but I wont ask you for the name and address....there are people here who own them and like them...zieglj01 posted a few days back and thought they were great....

Not so sure what is vague about it. Gave you my opinion. Feel free to PM me.

 

[cschang]

Agreed. I go up to their most expensive speaker, and there's that dome staring at me.

And it is a great speaker as well.

In the end, as been stated before, it's all about the implementation and design choices.

 

[GranteedEV]

IMO all types of drivers have great versions and poor versions so it's impossible to compare the different technologies. Personally I like the idea of a properly implemented compression driver.

 

[JerryLove]

IMO all types of drivers have great versions and poor versions so it's impossible to compare the different technologies. Personally I like the idea of a properly implemented compression driver.

So they are entirely fungeable, and neither technology is any different in traits than the other?

 

[GranteedEV]

So they are entirely fungeable, and neither technology is any different in traits than the other?

Sorry I didn't mean it in that way.

I just meant that I think that the best (subjective) comparision has to be done at a driver-by-driver level of analysis - at which point you need a different crossover and thus different midrange driver to pair with and thus a different overall sound. It's BECAUSE they're not fungeable that you can't compare them - they're simply too different however both can work well implemented properly for a given application. It's so impossible to compare the drivers directly that too many outside variables are inevitibly introduced.

You can't generalize much about "Speakers WITH RIBBONS" or "Speaker WITH DOMES". IMO you have to look at your design goals ie directivity, sensitivity, power handling, etc and work outwards from there and always be willing to substitute not only a different technology but a different implementation of the same technology until you get to the desired end result.