Usher UA721

[GO-NAD!]

Anybody familiar with this design, as found at Parts Express? Sometime down the road, I might like to build my own for my HT. Three of these might be ideal for placement behind my AT projector screen. The description says this MTM is a 4 ohm speaker, so they might be power hungry. At Amazon, they list the sensitivity as 88 dB 2.83V/1m.

If anyone can suggest another high quality MTM stand-mount design, please do!

 

[Swerd]

Anybody familiar with this design, as found at Parts Express? Sometime down the road, I might like to build my own for my HT. Three of these might be ideal for placement behind my AT projector screen. The description says this MTM is a 4 ohm speaker, so they might be power hungry. At Amazon, they list the sensitivity as 88 dB 2.83V/1m.

If anyone can suggest another high quality MTM stand-mount design, please do!

I haven't heard that Usher kit, but it uses quality drivers, and probably would be good. Several years ago I did hear the Dayton RS722 MTM kit, and I liked it. It costs about $100 (US) less than the Usher MTM. Those Parts Express cabinets in both kits are very well made.

Either MTM could be easily driven by an amp such as your NAD. Neither of them go lower than 4 ohms, so they can probably be driven by most AVRs.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I haven't heard that Usher kit, but it uses quality drivers, and probably would be good. Several years ago I did hear the Dayton RS722 MTM kit, and I liked it. It costs about $100 (US) less than the Usher MTM. Those Parts Express cabinets in both kits are very well made.

Either MTM could be easily driven by an amp such as your NAD. Neither of them go lower than 4 ohms, so they can probably be driven by most AVRs.

Hmmm, that looks interesting as well. I like the fact that the crossovers are pre-assembled. How much weight should I give the listed power handling of just 100 watts? I suppose being crossed over with the subwoofer at 80Hz would take a fair load off, but listening to an action movie at "elevated" spl - could that be a problem? I realize that we should take stated power handling with a grain of salt, but I'd still like to know that it's not a "feeble" design. I'm not sure what the Usher, as a complete speaker is capable of handling, but the woofers are rated at 100 watts.

I'd probably build my own cabinets, as I would be placing them behind a screen and the looks don't matter at all. I'd save a good chunk of change that way. Besides, I would imagine shipping up here would add significantly to the cost as well.

Thanks for the suggestion! It's on my list.

 

[Swerd]

Hmmm, that looks interesting as well. I like the fact that the crossovers are pre-assembled. How much weight should I give the listed power handling of just 100 watts? I suppose being crossed over with the subwoofer at 80Hz would take a fair load off, but listening to an action movie at "elevated" spl - could that be a problem? I realize that we should take stated power handling with a grain of salt, but I'd still like to know that it's not a "feeble" design. I'm not sure what the Usher, as a complete speaker is capable of handling, but the woofers are rated at 100 watts.

I'd take that 100 watt power rating with several large grains of salt. The Dayton RS drivers (RS180 woofer and RS28 tweeter) are well-known solid performers. The MTM design for these has been around for about 5 years and is a good design.

I'd probably build my own cabinets, as I would be placing them behind a screen and the looks don't matter at all. I'd save a good chunk of change that way. Besides, I would imagine shipping up here would add significantly to the cost as well.

Here are the write-ups for both designs, with parts lists, Usher and Dayton.

Both seem to use the same size cabinet. Note that the Usher woofers have truncated frames. To flush mount those will take some extra effort with a router.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'd take that 100 watt power rating with several large grains of salt. The Dayton RS drivers (RS180 woofer and RS28 tweeter) are well-known solid performers. The MTM design for these has been around for about 5 years and is a good design.
Here are the write-ups for both designs, with parts lists, Usher and Dayton.

Both seem to use the same size cabinet. Note that the Usher woofers have truncated frames. To flush mount those will take some extra effort with a router.

Thanks, Swerd.

 

[jostenmeat]

I don't subscribe to any threads at any forums, but if I did, this one here could very well be the first.

Those Dayton woofers are 7", and dual 7" per speaker seems like it could do decently with midbass? I think that's the hardest thing about HT with most speakers, as my subjective opinion.

Since I don't know a damn thing about international shopping, I did want to point out that Amazon sells the PE kits too:

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=RS180S-8+7"+Aluminum+Woofer&btnG=Google+Search#q=RS180S-8+7"+Aluminum+Woofer&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=o8t&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbs=shop:1&tbo=u&ei=ocgTTbmHN4m4sAPKivG-Ag&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CEUQrQQwAw&biw=1680&bih=869&fp=9bef8cda26d1a6ec

So for the last two digits of the model numbers like MR, CL, BR, I think that might mean wood/speaker, like MapleRight, CherryLeft, BlackRight. However, there's one with 3 letters at the end, hmm, ok ok, CML for CurvedMapleLeft?

 

[GO-NAD!]

I don't subscribe to any threads at any forums, but if I did, this one here could very well be the first.

Those Dayton woofers are 7", and dual 7" per speaker seems like it could do decently with midbass? I think that's the hardest thing about HT with most speakers, as my subjective opinion.

Since I don't know a damn thing about international shopping, I did want to point out that Amazon sells the PE kits too:

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=RS180S-8+7"+Aluminum+Woofer&btnG=Google+Search#q=RS180S-8+7"+Aluminum+Woofer&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=o8t&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbs=shop:1&tbo=u&ei=ocgTTbmHN4m4sAPKivG-Ag&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CEUQrQQwAw&biw=1680&bih=869&fp=9bef8cda26d1a6ec

So for the last two digits of the model numbers like MR, CL, BR, I think that might mean wood/speaker, like MapleRight, CherryLeft, BlackRight. However, there's one with 3 letters at the end, hmm, ok ok, CML for CurvedMapleLeft?

Thanks, JM. If you look at the entry for this speaker on Amazon, it says it's shipped from and sold by PE. May as well go straight to the source, since I've bought from PE before and am happy with that experience.

I'm still open to other suggestions, if anyone has any. Whatever I should go with, I want it to be a "step up" in sound quality from my present speakers.

 

[jostenmeat]

GO-NAD!, I'm not one to have suggestions here, but methinks that if you list some parameters, it might help in that others can narrow down that huge list of possibilities as far as DIY builds. So, on the behalf of everyone:

1. What is the budget for three speakers all said and done?

2. What are the ideal dimensions, or more particularly the limitations?


I was thinking about something, but it will take me a bit to get to . . .

3a. Your ceiling is 7' high?

3b. You are still building the equipment rack below the screen, and if so how tall will this be?

3c. Ideal tweeter height would be about say 40" high?


The reason I was curious about the second set of questions was to maybe have an upside down tower configuration, depending on the height of the rack. I know it would be very strange, but then you can start getting access to more capable midbass, as I've already offered that I think that could be the hardest thing for speakers when movies are concerned.

Towers in an upright configuration on top of a cabinet that is say more than a couple of feet tall might start getting too high.

Otherwise, I see bookshelves on short* but sturdy (perhaps sand filled) stands that are sitting on top of the cabinet.

Or, you drill into the speakers so that you can use beefier speaker mounts into bookshelves, coming forward from the front wall. You may very well have to concoct/fabricate arms or something that are strong enough. Or, you have a shallower depth to the false/screen wall.

http://www.htd.com/speaker-cables-accessories/Wall-Mount-Speaker-Brackets

I know rmk uses these mounts for use with his industrial grade JTR speakers, and I believe he drilled right into them as well. He was wondering about it to the designer, and he responded with, what's the big deal do it. If I did it all over again, I woulda kept my B25s and drilled into them, instead of downgrading to Alphas only for the sake of ceiling mounting without drilling.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok, I couldn't help myself. ER18 flipped upside down means 10.75" tweeter height. If cabinet is say 24" tall, then we are now at 35" tweeter height. You can put an Auralex subdude beneath each one, and since it's 3" tall, you now have final tweeter height of 38" high. The problem with the subdudes is that they are $50 each, though I'm sure you could figure something else out if you didn't want to use those. Then again, you'd be saving on stands/mounts. I can't remember what I read, but I think there is little fear with having the rear ports (which will now be up high).

Pretty nutty, huh, but whaddya think? As of August, the dome version costs $276 per, and the ribbon version costs $315 per (not including only the wood and glue, but everything else including posts and spikes). (I'd use the dome for better vertical dispersion if I choose this build.) While they use superior drivers (also from SEAS), the closest resembling speaker to this costs $4200/pair as prebuilt by the same designer.

Swerd wrote up the instructions, and he really did an excellent job. Ask him to email you the PDF if he gives you the thumbs up on the upside down config!

 

[jliedeka]

If you are concerned about shipping costs, you might want to check some of the kits at Madisound, especially Zaph's. Madisound has some of the lowest international shipping costs. Zaph designed his own 5" midwoofer and has several designs based on it which would be good in an HT setup.

I believe that soldering the crossovers is required but the kits include circuit boards. If you aren't put off by assembling crossovers, you have lots of choices depending on your budget and goals. There are a lot of great DIY designs. I'd recommend anything from HT Guide forum, Zaph, Curt Campbell and Paul Carmody. There are a lot more good designers out there but the ones I mentioned have had a good reputation and are very experienced.

Jim

 

[GO-NAD!]

GO-NAD!, I'm not one to have suggestions here, but methinks that if you list some parameters, it might help in that others can narrow down that huge list of possibilities as far as DIY builds. So, on the behalf of everyone:

1. What is the budget for three speakers all said and done?

2. What are the ideal dimensions, or more particularly the limitations?


I was thinking about something, but it will take me a bit to get to . . .

3a. Your ceiling is 7' high?

3b. You are still building the equipment rack below the screen, and if so how tall will this be?

3c. Ideal tweeter height would be about say 40" high?


The reason I was curious about the second set of questions was to maybe have an upside down tower configuration, depending on the height of the rack. I know it would be very strange, but then you can start getting access to more capable midbass, as I've already offered that I think that could be the hardest thing for speakers when movies are concerned.

Towers in an upright configuration on top of a cabinet that is say more than a couple of feet tall might start getting too high.

Otherwise, I see bookshelves on short* but sturdy (perhaps sand filled) stands that are sitting on top of the cabinet.

Or, you drill into the speakers so that you can use beefier speaker mounts into bookshelves, coming forward from the front wall. You may very well have to concoct/fabricate arms or something that are strong enough. Or, you have a shallower depth to the false/screen wall.

http://www.htd.com/speaker-cables-accessories/Wall-Mount-Speaker-Brackets

I know rmk uses these mounts for use with his industrial grade JTR speakers, and I believe he drilled right into them as well. He was wondering about it to the designer, and he responded with, what's the big deal do it. If I did it all over again, I woulda kept my B25s and drilled into them, instead of downgrading to Alphas only for the sake of ceiling mounting without drilling.

You know what? It occured to me later about the upside down tower layout. I'm assuming that you mean the woofers/midranges above the tweeters? I only mentioned stand-mounts before, cause I hadn't thought about the alternatives. I'm sure you understand my predicament, as you are facing a similar situation. The idea is to have the drivers sitting above the bottom of the screen, so none are firing through the screen frame, while keeping the tweeters at ear level. The bottom of the screen will be 24" above the floor. That will have the two lower drivers on each my towers partially obscured by the screen /false wall frames.

I don't know if you can take an existing design, such as a TMM or MTM and rearrange drivers into a MMT, without affecting its performance?

I'm still planning on a rack below the screen, but it will be narrow, in order to maintain some lateral flexibility for subwoofer and mains placement. So, towers with inverted drivers may be a great option.

I hadn't given this a great deal of thought before my original post - I guess I was just thinking out loud. So, I haven't really set a budget. I don't really know what I can achieve in the DIY realm for $1000 for three identical speakers. I suppose I could push it to $1500, if necessary. Of course, this isn't a tomorrow project - it's more like a year or two kinda timeframe.

For now, it'll be the existing towers mounted on stands and tilted downwards to aim the tweeters towards the listening position. What that will do, of course, is constrict that listening position, distance wise, because siting slightly forward of the "sweet spot", will put the tweeters firing over one's ears. While sitting further back will have them firing under the ears. Not ideal. But, I can live with it for the short/medium term.

Wait! It just occurred to me, that the centre speaker can't be identical to the mains, as it will have to sit on the component rack, in the middle. That one will have to be somewhat different, regarding driver placement. That speaker will be sitting about 2 feet higher then the mains. That one may have to be a large bookshelf, or if it's a tower, the drivers would have to be somewhere in the middle of it.

Anyway, gotta go get ready for turkey at the in-laws!

 

[jostenmeat]

You know what? It occured to me later about the upside down tower layout. I'm assuming that you mean the woofers/midranges above the tweeters?

Well, depending on the typical* configuration, yes. (ER18 is MTM.)

I only mentioned stand-mounts before, cause I hadn't thought about the alternatives. I'm sure you understand my predicament, as you are facing a similar situation.

I faced the predicament, but I am done now. Cinder blocks for all three, since there is no cabinet. I thoroughly understand your predicament, however.

The idea is to have the drivers sitting above the bottom of the screen, so none are firing through the screen frame, while keeping the tweeters at ear level. The bottom of the screen will be 24" above the floor. That will have the two lower drivers on each my towers partially obscured by the screen /false wall frames.

To be extremely clear, it is the bottom of the screen material, and not the screen frame. Of course I assume so, but just in case. If you are talking about your current speakers, try some cinder blocks for the mains. For the center, the offset will only be about a foot, and that is really not much at all, and well within the "recommended" tweeter offset. IIRC*, rmk had to use offset because his center was originally in the horiz config.

I don't know if you can take an existing design, such as a TMM or MTM and rearrange drivers into a MMT, without affecting its performance?

No, unless you are the designer and know exactly what you are doing. Even with the ER18 I suggested, just between the choice of the two tweeter options calls for different driving spacing already, when everything else is exactly the same (ok, outside of xover design too).

I'm still planning on a rack below the screen, but it will be narrow, in order to maintain some lateral flexibility for subwoofer and mains placement. So, towers with inverted drivers may be a great option.

Cool, I'm glad you are not immediately adverse to the idea.

I hadn't given this a great deal of thought before my original post - I guess I was just thinking out loud. So, I haven't really set a budget. I don't really know what I can achieve in the DIY realm for $1000 for three identical speakers. I suppose I could push it to $1500, if necessary. Of course, this isn't a tomorrow project - it's more like a year or two kinda timeframe.

I won't even talk about what $1,500 can get you. But like I said, the 3x ER18 can be done for $827. Essentially, take that $1,000, put a benjamin in your pocket, and finish with what I am guessing will be the best speakers you've ever had in your home. Here is the speaker that is most closely resembles (though it uses superior drivers):

http://www.salksound.com/ht2-tl - home.htm

For now, it'll be the existing towers mounted on stands and tilted downwards to aim the tweeters towards the listening position. What that will do, of course, is constrict that listening position, distance wise, because siting slightly forward of the "sweet spot", will put the tweeters firing over one's ears. While sitting further back will have them firing under the ears. Not ideal. But, I can live with it for the short/medium term.

Dr. Swerd already diagnosed me with audio nervosa, but if I may be frank, I think your case is worse! If say your rig is a TM, I really have no worry whatsoever, and especially more so because you have one row. With a MTM design like the ER18, I now have to worry about lobing in regards to the vertical plane. (TM means only lobing at and around xover). Well, I figured that in my present configuration as is, if I introduced the ER18s, I would be about 4deg off axis in the front row, and 2deg off axis in the second row. This also implies that the most even compromise I could obtain would be +/- 3deg if I found the right stands. If I am to be diagnosed with audio nervosa over MTM lobing, then you would have a severe case of the disease if worrying about it with a TM design, or 3way TMW design.

Wait! It just occurred to me, that the centre speaker can't be identical to the mains, as it will have to sit on the component rack, in the middle. That one will have to be somewhat different, regarding driver placement. That speaker will be sitting about 2 feet higher then the mains. That one may have to be a large bookshelf, or if it's a tower, the drivers would have to be somewhere in the middle of it.

Anyway, gotta go get ready for turkey at the in-laws!

I still vote for 3 identical speakers. You can flip only the center speaker upside down, perhaps raised on some custom stand or subdude to get the offset to be closer.

gobble gobble!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Dr. Swerd already diagnosed me with audio nervosa, but if I may be frank, I think your case is worse!

Ha! Yeah, I may be overthinking this right now, as I haven't even tried the "tilted towers" on stands/blocks method. Who knows - I may be perfectly happy with the results? I assume you are satisfied with yours?

...it is the bottom of the screen material, and not the screen frame...

That's correct. The bottom edge of the screen fabric will be 24" from the floor. Of course, when I build the false wall and screen, that placement could vary by an inch or two as I fine tune the configuration.

Oh, and thanks for clearing up the driver layout question. I figured you wouldn't be able to just rearrange the drivers in a particular design, but I wasn't sure.

I won't even talk about what $1,500 can get you. But like I said, the 3x ER18 can be done for $827. Essentially, take that $1,000, put a benjamin in your pocket, and finish with what I am guessing will be the best speakers you've ever had in your home.

That's great to know. I just threw those figures out, as I didn't really have a good idea of what it would cost to build a trio of great speakers. More economical than I thought.

I really ought to just get my HT finished and think about this issue later. I have the room finished, except for some stairs work and the trim. The component rack has to be built as well. The trim will come after the screen and PJ are installed. After that's done, I will be building my twin subwoofers.

I received my screen fabric and velvet from Seymour a couple of weeks ago and I can't wait to get this together! I received "The Pacific" and "TLOTR" Trilogy on BD for Christmas and I'm looking forward to watching them!

Turkey yesterday - excellent, as usual!

 

[GranteedEV]

I received my screen fabric and velvet from Seymour a couple of weeks ago and I can't wait to get this together! I received "The Pacific" and "TLOTR" Trilogy on BD for Christmas and I'm looking forward to watching them!

wait you've got acoustically transparent screen material?

 

[GO-NAD!]

wait you've got acoustically transparent screen material?

I do indeed.

 

[annunaki]

GO-NAD Sent you a PM

 

[GranteedEV]

I do indeed.

Then... why... do you need the speakers to be underneath?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Then... why... do you need the speakers to be underneath?

They aren't going beneath, they're going behind. Perhaps you aren't visualizing this correctly? The lowest two drivers of my tower speakers will be directly in line with the lower frame of the screen, if they are sitting on the floor. That's where my issue arises.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ha! Yeah, I may be overthinking this right now, as I haven't even tried the "tilted towers" on stands/blocks method. Who knows - I may be perfectly happy with the results? I assume you are satisfied with yours?

I liked mine before the upgrade, I like it a whole lot more after the upgrade, but I still want better, and TBH I did have even higher expectations. I was expecting perfection, but I guess I can't really do that with speakers that are worth $200-300 each. You know, just silly me, but really it's great.

If you tilt them, I'm pretty sure you will be JUST FINE.

Oh, and thanks for clearing up the driver layout question. I figured you wouldn't be able to just rearrange the drivers in a particular design, but I wasn't sure.

I'm not saying you can't, just that you better damn well know what you are doing! For instance, perhaps if you maintain the same spacing between drivers, that you will still get a lot of the design, however, they also account for diffraction effects (which frequencies will be acoustically large or small for the distance to any speaker edge). Then, different types of speakers make for more important design choices, for instance, I think with a ported system, the placing of braces is not nearly as critical as it is with a TL like the ER18. (Does that imply that different woofer locations messes up the TL design, I dunno!) Catch my drift? IOW, don't change anything unless an expert gives you the ok!

That's great to know. I just threw those figures out, as I didn't really have a good idea of what it would cost to build a trio of great speakers. More economical than I thought.

I failed to mention that you do have to make the xover. However, TBH, I think the xover should turn out to be much easier, and less work, than the cabinets. No cutting, you could just use tie wraps, and just some time with a solder iron/gun.

I received my screen fabric and velvet from Seymour a couple of weeks ago and I can't wait to get this together! I received "The Pacific" and "TLOTR" Trilogy on BD for Christmas and I'm looking forward to watching them!

Hah! Yeah, I bet it's tough to be patient. I've seen the first couple of episodes of The Pacific at my friend's, but at this point, I'll have to obtain the BDs to watch the whole series. LOTR is nice gift, and I'm sure with a very generous intent from the giver, but I feel bad to tell you that I think it is pretty loaded with DNR. Very far from demo, IMO. In fact, I want to advise you to watch it now, on a smaller TV. If you want any recs for PQ in the future for any particular category, lemme know, and I will offer my own suggestions.

Turkey yesterday - excellent, as usual!

Glad to hear it!

p.s. annunaki/GN, if there is PMing about some DIY speaker design choices, I want to hear too!!

 

[GO-NAD!]

I liked mine before the upgrade, I like it a whole lot more after the upgrade, but I still want better, and TBH I did have even higher expectations. I was expecting perfection, but I guess I can't really do that with speakers that are worth $200-300 each. You know, just silly me, but really it's great.

If you tilt them, I'm pretty sure you will be JUST FINE.

Thanks, JM. I may be overthinking this right now and may be perfectly happy with it after setup.

I failed to mention that you do have to make the xover. However, TBH, I think the xover should turn out to be much easier, and less work, than the cabinets. No cutting, you could just use tie wraps, and just some time with a solder iron/gun.

I don't mind putting together a x-over. I haven't done it before, but I know how to use a soldering iron and as long as I know what goes where, I don't think it would be overly taxing. Unless someone tells me otherwise...

...I think it is pretty loaded with DNR.

DNR?

If you want any recs for PQ in the future for any particular category, lemme know, and I will offer my own suggestions.

Thanks, I'll let you know.

Oh, and the PM from Annunaki wasn't about any design that hasn't already been discussed in this thread. Since he sent it as a PM, I'll have leave it to him to decide if he wishes to share the details.