Epik Legend -vs- HSU VTF-2

[rabbit_ears]

A friend of mine built a great room addition and as a last minute add-on he asked me to throw something together for him for sound. I am far from a audiophile but a little more knowledgable than they are on the subject.
There was a lot of concessions on both parts (the wife initially wanted all in ceiling stuff) but conceded that she would do in-walls in the front but now that's changed to bookshelfs (she definitely won't go for floor standers).
So it will either be Aperion Verus or PSB imagine bookshelf and centre up front and a pair of in-ceiling from the same company in the rear.
Again this is a last minute add-in to the addition so there was no initial budget. I'm looking for a decent sub to round out the system and was thinking about one of the two subs listed above. The system will likely be used 40% TV watching, 30% Movies, 20% Music and 10% Gaming.
The room is 18x20' with 10' vaulted ceilings.
All recommendations are welcome. They want something with decent sound but don't want to break the bank (any further than it already is).

 

[rnatalli]

The HSU will likely have an edge in output and HSU subs in general are quite musical. However, having heard the Empire, I suspect the Legend will have slightly better SQ and should hold its own in that room unless the volume is always cranked.

 

[AVRat]

+1 I concur with rnatalli's assessment!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm far from expert on subs But I reckon A2 - 300 http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407 wound be a bit more budget minded choice with similar output of VFT-2, plus eD offers free Fedex Ground shipping....

 

[shadyJ]

If they are listening at soft volumes, go with the Legend. If they like to crank it up once in awhile or want deep bass, go with the Hsu. If you do go with the Hsu, make sure they are cool with the size of it, to most it is not a small sub.

 

[j_garcia]

I can't imagine the VTF-2 will have more functional output. I have said this before, these dual driver subs have a TON of output even though they are sealed. The VTF-2 will likely have more impact only in the lowest notes, but the Legend should actually have more output above 30Hz if it is anything like the Empire. IMO, having heard the VTF-3 and owned a VTF-2 previously, I'd expect the Legend to be closer in output to the VTF-3.

 

[FirstReflection]

If all you care about is output, then go ahead and waste your money on an Epik. Call me in a year if/when it ever actually arrives. And don't be surprised if your model is discontinued before you ever get a shipping notice.

If you actually want a subwoofer - something that can play bass with delineation, accuracy AND still provide dynamics and plenty of output, then go with HSU. The VTF-2 won't plumb the absolute depths of 20Hz and lower. It'll hit those notes, but it starts to roll-off fairly steeply at about 30Hz. Still plenty of deep bass from the VTF-2 MK3 - and the accuracy, transient response, delineation and musicality is in a totally different (higher) league than anything Epik has ever made. I'll just admit that Epik's subs will play louder in the really, really low notes. Part of that is because there's plenty of distortion to go along with the fundamental though.

So, obviously, my vote goes to the HSU. Bonus points for the fact that if you order an HSU, you'll actually receive it in a short amount of time.

 

[Matt34]

If all you care about is output, then go ahead and waste your money on an Epik. Call me in a year if/when it ever actually arrives. And don't be surprised if your model is discontinued before you ever get a shipping notice.

If you actually want a subwoofer - something that can play bass with delineation, accuracy AND still provide dynamics and plenty of output, then go with HSU. The VTF-2 won't plumb the absolute depths of 20Hz and lower. It'll hit those notes, but it starts to roll-off fairly steeply at about 30Hz. Still plenty of deep bass from the VTF-2 MK3 - and the accuracy, transient response, delineation and musicality is in a totally different (higher) league than anything Epik has ever made. I'll just admit that Epik's subs will play louder in the really, really low notes. Part of that is because there's plenty of distortion to go along with the fundamental though.

So, obviously, my vote goes to the HSU. Bonus points for the fact that if you order an HSU, you'll actually receive it in a short amount of time.

Whoa, lots of claims being thrown out there.

Can you point me to these high distortion graphs of the legend because I haven't seen any graphs on it beside a couple in room user FR graphs?

The HSU is +/-3db point is 18hz or 25hz depending on output modes, not 30hz. Graph is of the hsu 3.2 which is the predecessor to the 3.2.

And to Epik's credit they have never taken pre-orders to products that they don't continue to produce...but yes the Legend is currently out of stock with a predicted restock in Jan/Feb.

 

[shadyJ]

Yeah, the VTF2 is flat to below 20 hz in max extension mode. It will plumb the depths, just not as much as the VTF3. Also I have to wonder about the Epik subwoofers, but I haven't heard any complaints about their sound quality. The thing is, how can they price their subs so low with two drivers in each product? I know those drivers are not going to be the greatest, but still that is an expense that has to add up. Also I have not seen any real measurements taken of the Legend or Empire, I wonder how they really compare to other subs? On paper, two 15"s or 12"s should still have a lot of output, even without a massive amp or high excursion drivers. Anyone know any outdoor measurements of these things? The Empire has been out a little while, has there any professional reviews?

 

[sholling]

It seems like reviews of Empires are almost nonexistent but I found one user review/comparison with graphs on AVS. I don't know the member that put it together so take it for what it's worth.

I spoke with Epik several months ago when I was still looking for a bedroom sub and it was an interesting conversation. Reading between the lines the impression that I got was that the theory is to price dual low mass driver boxes so low that customers can afford enough of them that the subs never have to work hard. That 4 or 8 affordable drivers (2 or 4 boxes) and amps loafing along will kick the snot out half as many expensive drivers and amps being driven hard. From a layman's perspective that actually makes a heck of a lot of sense and I will be speaking with them again next year if I go through with my ultimate subwoofer system for the family room project.

 

[GranteedEV]

It seems like reviews of Empires are almost nonexistent but I found one user review/comparison with graphs on AVS. I don't know the member that put it together so take it for what it's worth.

I spoke with Epik several months ago when I was still looking for a bedroom sub and it was an interesting conversation. Reading between the lines the impression that I got was that the theory is to price dual low mass driver boxes so low that customers can afford enough of them that the subs never have to work hard. That 4 or 8 affordable drivers (2 or 4 boxes) and amps loafing along will kick the snot out half as many expensive drivers and amps being driven hard. From a layman's perspective that actually makes a heck of a lot of sense and will be speaking with them again next year if I go through with my ultimate subwoofer system for the family room project.

But 3 orbit shifter LFs want you

 

[sholling]

But 3 orbit shifter LFs want you

As soon as I win the lotto.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, the specs on the website and the various graphs of the HSU VTF-2 MK3's frequency response don't really match up with its real-world performance.

Keep in mind that I listen at reference volumes (115dB LFE peaks). Virtually all of the graphs that you see of subwoofer frequency response only show the performance at 75 or 85dB output levels. The problem, for most subwoofers, is linear power response. Up the output to 95 or 105dB and those graphs won't look so flat!

Oftentimes, 85dB is about the maximum output level at 20Hz. No matter how much you increase the volume knob, you won't get any more than 85dB at 20Hz. Even powerful subwoofers, like Axiom's EP500 and EP600, have this problem.

So that's why they all stick with their 75dB or 85dB graphs and the quoted specs for +/-3dB limits are based upon those measurements as well.

In regards to Epik, I just have zero respect for them. A handful of people might have seen my Epik Sentinel review, which was very briefly posted on Audioholics. I was extremely fair - I would actually say that I went very easy - in that review. Epik, got so upset that I didn't gush and praise all over their crappy subwoofer that they screamed and yelled at Gene until Gene pulled the review from the site. They literally sent private emails - in which I asked about issues that I had with the first, defective subwoofer that they sent me - over to Gene as "proof" that I was biased against Epik and wouldn't give them a fair review. Of course, they managed to edit out all of the actual discussion and back-and-forth, plus all of the things that I praised about the Sentinel. All they sent to Gene was an abridged email of nothing but my criticisms and complaints to make it look as though I had nothing but negative things to say to them and to make it seem like I had knowingly reviewed a defective product - which, obviously, I didn't!

So that's the kind of people you're dealing with over at Epik. There's a reason why Epik changes models every few months - why their products are never in stock - and why you never see any professional reviews of any of their products! They fall apart under any sort of real scrutiny and they are so over-protective of their crappy brand that they won't allow reviews to be posted and they try to defame anyone who points out their flaws.

I gave Epik plenty of credit in my review for the extension and slam provided by the Sentinel. I just also pointed out that extension and slam was all that it was good at! The Castle that I heard had the same problems. The design goal was obviously extension and output - and they succeeded in that! They just did it at the detriment of delineation, clarity and refinement.

And that's why Epik's prices are so low. It's pretty easy to take a heavy driver, stick it in a big box and connect a high-power, poorly-made Chinese amp to the back of it and call it a day!

Epik only ever got lumped in with the actually GOOD subwoofer companies because of the famous (by internet standards) Craigsub subwoofer rankings list over at AVS. After that one list - in which the Castle and Conquest got a lot of praise - all of a sudden, Epik was the bestest thing EVAR!! People who had never heard an Epik sub were recommending them all over the place and they were going to be the next big thing and crush SVS and HSU.

Well look at them now. The Castle and Conquest are discontinued. Oh...so is that crappy Sentinel... And one of their only two existing models is out of stock. And the Empire is - as someone just pointed out - suspiciously cheap for a dual 15" design! Meanwhile, HSU is chugging along as reliable as ever and SVS is doing their usual thing of hyping their latest models to the moon while simultaneously never actually having them in stock. How's that SVS pre-order looking? Only 9 months since you pre-ordered it and they're promising to ship it next month?! Score!

I'm just sick of hype winning out over actual performance. No, four crappy dual 15" subwoofers will NOT outperform a single GOOD subwoofer. They will be louder - oh yes - and that's all Epik seems to care about. But, for the love of Pete, just stop and examine things for a minute before buying into the hype.

 

[Matt34]

Of course a subs fr graph isn't going to look the same at max output. I don't expect any sub under 1000 to deliver reference bass as a single unit in most room.

You've made your opinion clear about epik so let's drop it and adhere to the forum rules on manufacture slandering.

 

[FirstReflection]

"I take offence to that!

...

Slander is spoken; in print, it's libel."



Heard and understood, Matt

As to the frequency response graph thing - at peak output, no, of course any subwoofer won't show a flat response. But at anything over 85dB from 1 meter? I don't think it's crazy to hope for flat response at 95dB output from that distance. If we are hoping to achieve flat response at 85dB at the seating position then a sub is going to have to be able to output flat response at higher volume levels than 85dB from just 1 meter.

What I was saying about the sloped frequency response at higher output levels was in response to what people were saying about the VTF-2 MK3 having flat output down to 18Hz (-3dB at 18Hz). That might be the spec and it might be perfectly true! But what I was trying to point out is that - in a real room under real conditions - you won't experience flat output down to 20Hz at your actual seat. Or, to be more precise, you might at lower volume levels, but not at reference levels - the way I listen For me, trying to have flat response at 85dB at my seat, plus trying to hit 115dB peaks, the VTF-2 MK3 started to roll off at just under 30Hz or so. I'm not certain, but I think the ports are actually tuned for 25Hz on that sub - hence having to block one port for the 20Hz "max extension" mode. It isn't at all surprising that extremely low frequency output goes down in max volume level as a result. I'm just a crazy nut who wants it ALL!

 

[its phillip]

Yeah, the specs on the website and the various graphs of the HSU VTF-2 MK3's frequency response don't really match up with its real-world performance.

Keep in mind that I listen at reference volumes (115dB LFE peaks). Virtually all of the graphs that you see of subwoofer frequency response only show the performance at 75 or 85dB output levels. The problem, for most subwoofers, is linear power response. Up the output to 95 or 105dB and those graphs won't look so flat!

Oftentimes, 85dB is about the maximum output level at 20Hz. No matter how much you increase the volume knob, you won't get any more than 85dB at 20Hz. Even powerful subwoofers, like Axiom's EP500 and EP600, have this problem.

So that's why they all stick with their 75dB or 85dB graphs and the quoted specs for +/-3dB limits are based upon those measurements as well.

not the vtf-2 mk3, but the vtf-3 mk3 hits ~100 dB at 20hz for not that much more money:

 

[Matt34]

"I take offence to that!

...

Slander is spoken; in print, it's libel."



Heard and understood, Matt

As to the frequency response graph thing - at peak output, no, of course any subwoofer won't show a flat response. But at anything over 85dB from 1 meter? I don't think it's crazy to hope for flat response at 95dB output from that distance. If we are hoping to achieve flat response at 85dB at the seating position then a sub is going to have to be able to output flat response at higher volume levels than 85dB from just 1 meter.

What I was saying about the sloped frequency response at higher output levels was in response to what people were saying about the VTF-2 MK3 having flat output down to 18Hz (-3dB at 18Hz). That might be the spec and it might be perfectly true! But what I was trying to point out is that - in a real room under real conditions - you won't experience flat output down to 20Hz at your actual seat. Or, to be more precise, you might at lower volume levels, but not at reference levels - the way I listen For me, trying to have flat response at 85dB at my seat, plus trying to hit 115dB peaks, the VTF-2 MK3 started to roll off at just under 30Hz or so. I'm not certain, but I think the ports are actually tuned for 25Hz on that sub - hence having to block one port for the 20Hz "max extension" mode. It isn't at all surprising that extremely low frequency output goes down in max volume level as a result. I'm just a crazy nut who wants it ALL!

The graph I posted(the wrong one) was from Ilkka who used a pretty through standard of measuring all his subs the same way, outside. It makes for a very good comparison between different subs and can give you an idea of max output. Here is the link to the rest of his tests.

Here is the correct, max output thread:

That is where multiple subs come into play. When I had a dedicated theater room (14x12 sealed room) I had dual HSU VTF 3 mk 2 in there and using a 20hz tone, I could reach 115db at the listening position which was about 8-10ft away. When the kiddo came around and I had to move everything out to the living room which is part of an open floor plan, I could not replicate that kind of bass. I was able to get some very decent output with my DIY Infinities and actually a little more with my Tuba HT sub but not the gut wrenching feeling from subsonic bass as I did in that small room.

So the moral of this story is that it really showed me how important the room and placement are in achieving good bass, having a decent sub is just one step in achieving the goal.

Look at Warpdrv's setup, probably the best bass producing system on this forum, yet in his gigantic room he doesn't see much under 18-20hz.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[mziegler]

Keep in mind that I listen at reference volumes (115dB LFE peaks).

I'm just sick of hype winning out over actual performance. No, four crappy dual 15" subwoofers will NOT outperform a single GOOD subwoofer. They will be louder - oh yes - and that's all Epik seems to care about. But, for the love of Pete, just stop and examine things for a minute before buying into the hype.

I fear for your hearing.

A friend of mine, whose knowledge I respect (sdurani at AVS), will ask, "Do you want great bass or a great subwoofer." His point, supported by extensive research (see the Harmon paper about multiple subs) and people who know a hell of a lot more than I do, suggest the exact opposite of what you claim, that four "crappy" subwoofers WILL outperform a single good subwoofer.

I cannot, and will not debate you -- honestly I lack the knowledge -- but there seems to be a lot of actual research and experience that would contradict your claim. Of course there is much room for clarification/debate over terms like "crappy" and "good," but let's avoid getting pedantic, ok? And I have never heard the Epik, so I have nothing to say about that sub.

For what it is worth, I have listened to the Hsu 3mk2 and Rhythmik 15" in my room. At what I consider loud, subjectively the Rhythmik destroyed the Hsu in terms of sound quality and how deep it went.

 

[ahblaza]

Whoa, lots of claims being thrown out there.

Can you point me to these high distortion graphs of the legend because I haven't seen any graphs on it beside a couple in room user FR graphs?

The HSU is +/-3db point is 18hz or 25hz depending on output modes, not 30hz. Graph is of the hsu 3.2 which is the predecessor to the 3.2.

And to Epik's credit they have never taken pre-orders to products that they don't continue to produce...but yes the Legend is currently out of stock with a predicted restock in Jan/Feb.

Thanks Matt, I have an Epik Legend which I preordered and was delivered as promised, there must be a reason that they are out of stock, just my two cents. It has plenty of SPL output, it's hard to imagine a dual 12" driver sub to perform at this price range $499, no offense to anyone but if you are looking for a small footprint sub with all the output and articulate bass, get the Legend, sealed @ 70lbs and really easy to place and integrate with any speakers you have.

 

[ahblaza]

The HSU will likely have an edge in output and HSU subs in general are quite musical. However, having heard the Empire, I suspect the Legend will have slightly better SQ and should hold its own in that room unless the volume is always cranked.

I second that my friend.