Vented 12" sub box.

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
A readymade sub box design may not be right for your driver...


Which driver do you plan to build a sub for
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
That enclosure will be tuned to 50hz looking at the internal volume available after vent displacement (1.448ft^3) and the vent dimensions. Not only would it be a poor enclosure for HT, but much less any application requiring a 12" driver.

I would highly recommend finding a decent sub woofer and then creating the proper enclosure for said driver based upon the T/S parameters.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
That enclosure will be tuned to 50hz looking at the internal volume available after vent displacement (1.448ft^3) and the vent dimensions. Not only would it be a poor enclosure for HT, but much less any application requiring a 12" driver.

I would highly recommend finding a decent sub woofer and then creating the proper enclosure for said driver based upon the T/S parameters.
Alright, I'll find the T/S parameters and just make a ported box based on the volume. It's a DHD, the one at the very bottom of the page.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Do you already have the sub? If not please hold off there are much better drivers out there for probably the same or less money.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
If you can get me the t/s parameters (if they are even published or accurate) I can model it for you and provide an enclosure recommendation. I can provide a more usable recommendation if you can supply your maximum dimensions allowed for all three axes.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
It was an Indian dude on tech support, so I couldn't quite make out what he was saying for some parts (even though I told him to talk deliberately and slow, which he did). He wasn't completely oblivious, though, when I told him I wanted the T/S he knew what they were and he knew that I wanted to make a custom box.

I bolded the ones that seemed important, according to the Wikipedia article:

momz(?) = 4+4ohm
sd = 0.053 m^2
revs (probably Re) = 3.6 +3.6 ohm
bl = 18.96 tm
vas = 66 liters
vms (probably Cms) = 165.5 un / n (? doesnt seem like the right label)
mms = 121.21g
fo = 35.46hz
qms = 3.933
qes = 0.543
qts = 0.47
no = 0.524%
splo = 89.2dd (or dv (or similar), couldn't quite make it out)
2.83v = 95.2dd (or dv (or similar), couldn't quite make it out)
ma6 = 7.5mm
rms = 500watt
peak = 1000watt

The only main thing I noticed missing is the Le, maybe I labeled one of the other properties wrong?
 
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annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I was able to model the driver. This is definitely a vented box woofer as the f3 in a sealed enclosure is 41hz.

The power handling of the driver is also grossly over rated is is the case with many economy car subs. In either vented or sealed applications, xmax begins to be exceeded at just 65hz with 500 watts of rms power. To keep xmax in check you MUST NOT exceed 200 watts rms input power.

Now for the good news. This driver actually models fairly well in a vented enclosure. It is not an LFE champion but should do well for most program material. You will need to keep the power in check (below 200 watts rms). You will also need a high pass filter 4th order (24db/oct.) at 25 hz.

Enclosure recommendations are for a 4.4ft^3 net volume with a 2.5"H x 14"W x 22-1/3"L tuning to 28hz.
This yields a response of +/-3db from 27hz(-3db) to 86hz(-3db) between 108.4db and 111.4db. It will yield +/-1db response from 30hz-67hz.

I cannot stress enough that you must use low power with this driver (<=200 watts) and the high pass filter no less than 4th order at 25hz.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Changed it up a bit,
h=23.75
w=14
d=25.5
for a total internal volume of 4.04 ft^3. This is looking to be quite a big box.

EDIT: made a quick mock-up: http://i53.tinypic.com/20u48sg.png
If those will be your internal dimensions, you will need to increase the vent length to 25.00" to maintain tuning. This will put you at a net internal volume of 4.00ft^3. This also takes into account .25ft^3 of driver & bracing displacement.

The slight volume reduction does not appear to have a drastic effect on response with this driver. Response plots are almost the same.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Sorry for not responding sooner, but the dimensions I posted were the external dimensions. I accidentally included the board thickness, I suppose.

So what you are saying, is that there needs to be .5" spacing between the vent and the back of the box? If that is so, I can adjust it to my liking better.

Also, can you guide me to a simple guide on building crossovers? I have heard the book "Speaker Building 201" referenced multiple times, but if there is an online guide explaining the different electronic components of a crossover and how they work together to affect the sound output, that would be quite helpful.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Also, can you guide me to a simple guide on building crossovers? I have heard the book "Speaker Building 201" referenced multiple times, but if there is an online guide explaining the different electronic components of a crossover and how they work together to affect the sound output, that would be quite helpful.
Actually, I found this website, it looks like it could be quite handy.

Does this look about right? Sorry for crappy Paint skills.
 

Attachments

Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Alright, I put together materials needed for that crossover, and the total came to over $200, which doesn't seem quite right (for example, a miniDSP is only around $100). The main problem is that I can't seem to find inexpensive inductors. Where can I buy non-expensive inductors, that are still meant for audio applications?

Also, why does it have to be a 4th order crossover? I'm just curious, I mean I don't think I'll have any trouble building it, it's just the price that is worrying me.

EDIT: Wait a second, I just realized something. My computer has 7.1 surround sound outputs, so a LFE/Center output is included in the mix. Is there a software crossover for computers (I.E. a program that would allow me to send certain frequency ranges to certain motherboard audio outputs)? I would think that something like this would be possible, as most current desktop PCs have at least a 5.1 surround output.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
A high pass filter is something which reduces energy going towards the driver. It is done because, especially in a ported box, the driver and port get out of phase below tuning or something along those lines(someone else can probably explain better than I... I know very little about ported boxes). That in turn leads to some massive excursion issues(which btw, don't even give you much output, as the port is also canceling much of the driver output below its tuning). What you therefore want is minimal energy reaching the driver below the port tuning.

You can not make a passive version of a low bass filter... it's insane. It must be done ahead of the amplification stage, not after. A miniDSP can likely be programmed to do it(those things are amazing), and perhaps your computer software can be modded to do it. The computer may have an LFE out low pass filter, and it may not. It may have a high pass filter for your mains, and again, it may not. THe signal leaving your computer may be 1v. It's a lot easier to reduce a .8v signal to .5v than it is to reduce the amplified 28v signal into a 20v signal, just for example. It takes less powerful crossover components, and doesn't waste power. In the latter scenario, you're basically trying to stop like 100 watts from reaching the driver, in the former scenario, you're stopping like 3w from reaching the amplifier. This will also mean your amplifier will have more headroom and not be overworked.

My recommendation is to pick up an elemental design EQ2, a Behringer mic2200, or a Reckhorn B2. These are proper analog high pass filter devices.

Many plate amplifiers too have high pass filters built in. I know Creative Sound Solutions sells BASH amplifiers and for i think a $30 charge they will modify the HPF setting to your needs. I don't however know the slope of the crossover here. We recommend a steep slope in order to get the most performance.

For example, we may want the signal to be 24db down at 17hz in order to keep excursion under control. A 24db/octave filter centered at 25hz i think will give you this. If the high pass filter slope is 12db/octave, then you have to center it all the way at 50hz or something like that. I think you can imagine that you don't want the high pass filter operating in the usable range of your subwoofer. (IE above port tuning). Doing so will just give you less output with no real benefit. What we want is balance between the most output above port tuning and the least excursion below port tuning. Remember, if a port causes a driver to be 24db down an octave below tuning, and a high pass filter causes the signal to be down 24db below tuning, the actual sound will be luje 48db an octave below tuning. Does that make sense? Do we want the actual sound to be this down? Of course not. But it's a necessarry evil. The most effective way of avoiding these things is an infinite baffle subwoofer. This implies a TON of drivers operating in virtual free space (an "infinitely" large sealed box). We use many drivers in order to protect each individual driver from overexursion while getting a ton of output, and being a theoretical sealed box, the transfer function rolloff is shallow enough that we can get a ton of output. You can even EQ an infinite baffle to give you deep bass. The tradeoff of course is a need for tons of power and tons of money. Many other alignments do exist to give you proper deep bass, between ported, sealed, and transmission line boxes. They all still require the right drivers. For this particular driver, you need to follow annunaki's advice and go with the least of many evils.. a 4th order active high pass filter centered at 25hz.

I really doubt your computer has much natural bass management... it's likely just not programmed into the firmware. Remember, most PC setups consist of a bunch of signals being sent to a "control center", not directly to an amplifier. I highly recommend a miniature surround receiver... something like a marantz nr1501. Even then, the high pass filters it will apply will serve to protect your satellites, not your subwoofer, and the subwoofer will only be low pass filtered (IE frequencies above 100hz will be down in level etc). A proper high pass filter is still needed to protect your sub. Most commercial subwoofers have HPFs built in.
 
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Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
A high pass filter is something which reduces energy going towards the driver. It is done because, especially in a ported box, the driver and port get out of phase below tuning or something along those lines(someone else can probably explain better than I... I know very little about ported boxes). That in turn leads to some massive excursion issues(which btw, don't even give you much output, as the port is also canceling much of the driver output below its tuning). What you therefore want is minimal energy reaching the driver below the port tuning.
Alright, I get this. A low-Hz high pass filter is needed in subwoofers so that signals that the speaker isn't made to handle well (or signals below the port tuning) aren't sent to it.

You can not make a passive version of a low bass filter... it's insane. It must be done ahead of the amplification stage, not after. A miniDSP can likely be programmed to do it(those things are amazing), and perhaps your computer software can be modded to do it. The computer may have an LFE out low pass filter, and it may not. It may have a high pass filter for your mains, and again, it may not. THe signal leaving your computer may be 1v. It's a lot easier to reduce a .8v signal to .5v than it is to reduce the amplified 28v signal into a 20v signal, just for example. It takes less powerful crossover components, and doesn't waste power. In the latter scenario, you're basically trying to stop like 100 watts from reaching the driver, in the former scenario, you're stopping like 3w from reaching the amplifier. This will also mean your amplifier will have more headroom and not be overworked.
I think I get this too, more components are needed to reduce higher voltages so filtering certain frequencies before the amplification stage is sometimes necessary. However, I am currently powering my speakers with a car amplifier (and will probably continue to do so, as it is a less-expensive way to power speakers and still have a good quality audio signal coming out), and car amps commonly have a built in low pass crossover, as does mine (adjustable to either 70hz or 110hz, although some car amps have much finer controls).

My recommendation is to pick up an elemental design EQ2, a Behringer mic2200, or a Reckhorn B2. These are proper analog high pass filter devices.
Although these all look like excellent quality devices, I really don't want to spend that much on a professional-quality crossover. I mean, I would rather spend that money on a better all-in-one 12" subwoofer. The idea here is that I can make the best with the sub I already have, without having to spend too much money in extras, as that kind of defeats the purpose.

Many plate amplifiers too have high pass filters built in. I know Creative Sound Solutions sells BASH amplifiers and for i think a $30 charge they will modify the HPF setting to your needs. I don't however know the slope of the crossover here. We recommend a steep slope in order to get the most performance.

For example, we may want the signal to be 24db down at 17hz in order to keep excursion under control. A 24db/octave filter centered at 25hz i think will give you this. If the high pass filter slope is 12db/octave, then you have to center it all the way at 50hz or something like that. I think you can imagine that you don't want the high pass filter operating in the usable range of your subwoofer. (IE above port tuning). Doing so will just give you less output with no real benefit. What we want is balance between the most output above port tuning and the least excursion below port tuning. Remember, if a port causes a driver to be 24db down an octave below tuning, and a high pass filter causes the signal to be down 24db below tuning, the actual sound will be luje 48db an octave below tuning. Does that make sense? Do we want the actual sound to be this down? Of course not. But it's a necessarry evil. The most effective way of avoiding these things is an infinite baffle subwoofer. This implies a TON of drivers operating in virtual free space (an "infinitely" large sealed box). We use many drivers in order to protect each individual driver from overexursion while getting a ton of output, and being a theoretical sealed box, the transfer function rolloff is shallow enough that we can get a ton of output. You can even EQ an infinite baffle to give you deep bass. The tradeoff of course is a need for tons of power and tons of money. Many other alignments do exist to give you proper deep bass, between ported, sealed, and transmission line boxes. They all still require the right drivers. For this particular driver, you need to follow annunaki's advice and go with the least of many evils.. a 4th order active high pass filter centered at 25hz.
I think I understand this...if I were to use a lower-order high pass filter, it would center at a higher frequency, therefore canceling out bass frequencies that would otherwise be heard.

I really doubt your computer has much natural bass management... it's likely just not programmed into the firmware. Remember, most PC setups consist of a bunch of signals being sent to a "control center", not directly to an amplifier. I highly recommend a miniature surround receiver... something like a marantz nr1501. Even then, the high pass filters it will apply will serve to protect your satellites, not your subwoofer, and the subwoofer will only be low pass filtered (IE frequencies above 100hz will be down in level etc). A proper high pass filter is still needed to protect your sub. Most commercial subwoofers have HPFs built in.
The only bass management my computer has is a built in crossover on the LFE channel adjustable in 25Hz increments from 50-600Hz. It works just fine, I have tested it on all Hz increments and it seems pretty accurate.

I understand that I need to protect my sub by filtering out everything below 25Hz, but what I was thinking is that there would be a computer program available that offered real time EQ editing on all channels.

EDIT: Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you take a look at the crossover schematic I posted earlier and tell me if it's even right or not? Because after looking at some of the parts offered to build crossovers, it looks like my numbers might be off.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
I need someone to help me figure out how to build a 4th order 25hz high pass, the numbers I posted are way off.
 

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