Somebody 'splain this to me!

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
In this case it means the speaker respondes to two different signals at the same time. One voice coil for the left, and one for the right.

I don't really know how it works in the Emp Tek rock speakers, but I do know that dual voice coils are useful in messing with a sub's impedance. For example a 2 ohm dual voice coil speaker can have a 2 ohm impedance (just one voice coil used), a 4 ohm impedance (both voice coils wired together in series) and a 1 ohm impedance (both voice coils wired together in parallel) and these different scenarios will actually change many driver behavioural parameters.

Now a 1 ohm impedance sounds wild, but car audio amplifiers are often designed for this load. How well they do it I don't know, but it is what it is. The lower impedance gives them more sensitivity I think.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
In this case it means the speaker respondes to two different signals at the same time. One voice coil for the left, and one for the right.
That sounds to this layman like the worst idea in history.

So there's a tug of war between the magnets with the signals are out-of-phase?

If you want merged L/R signals: do it in the crossover like a normal person.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
In this case it means the speaker respondes to two different signals at the same time. One voice coil for the left, and one for the right.

I don't really know how it works in the Emp Tek rock speakers, but I do know that dual voice coils are useful in messing with a sub's impedance. For example a 2 ohm dual voice coil speaker can have a 2 ohm impedance (just one voice coil used), a 4 ohm impedance (both voice coils wired together in series) and a 1 ohm impedance (both voice coils wired together in parallel) and these different scenarios will actually change many driver behavioural parameters.

Now a 1 ohm impedance sounds wild, but car audio amplifiers are often designed for this load. How well they do it I don't know, but it is what it is. The lower impedance gives them more sensitivity I think.
Speakers like these are rarely 4 Ohm and almost never 2 Ohm, so a 1 Ohm load is out of the question. These are 8 Ohms per voice coil and the reason is that for distributed audio, nobody is listening and saying "Oh, the separation and placement of the instruments is incredibly life-like". Distributed audio is what the name infers- it distributes the audio but the main goal isn't to have 3D stereo imaging, it's so both channels are heard without dead spots. You over-thought this by a mile.

Car audio uses 4 Ohm speakers because a car amplifier doesn't have a high voltage power source. Back, before power amplifiers for cars existed, the radio or tape deck was low powered because it was A) not a requirement since the music wasn't played at ear-splitting volumes, B) it was difficult to develop high power with discreet output transistors without high voltage power supply rails and C) if they did it, it would be too expensive and nobody would buy it. Common ground radios put out an honest 3.2 W/ch at anything close to low distortion and into a 4 Ohm load, 2.83V (used as the reference voltage for 1W into an 8 Ohm load) is 2 Watts. Unless a "vibrator" was used, power supply voltage higher than 14.4VDC was impossible unless the car's voltage regulator went bad, so that was as high as they went. Once it became much easier and less expensive to make a high powered amplifier, they became common and now, head unit amplifiers put out a lot more power than they ever did before.

The reason they can use 4 or 2 Ohm speakers in a car is because the battery is an extremely high current source. There's no way to deliver 100A of current from a 120VAC receptacle unless you want to see a lot of smoke and fire trucks.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
In this case it means the speaker respondes to two different signals at the same time. One voice coil for the left, and one for the right.
I assume these dual coils are in line on the same driver. Would the end result really be any different than selecting mono at the pre-amp to combine the L and R signal with a single voice coil? Cause that sure does sound like "mono sound from a single speaker", which is a concept I can deal with:D.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
That sounds to this layman like the worst idea in history.

So there's a tug of war between the magnets with the signals are out-of-phase?

If you want merged L/R signals: do it in the crossover like a normal person.
It's an outdoor rock speaker. Who knows what kind of electronics are meant to go with it. My guess is it's meant to be a mono speaker but designed to be used with any (outdoor?) stereo receiver, since I doubt someone in a swimming pool is concerned with stereo imaging.

I assume these dual coils are in line on the same driver. Would the end result really be any different than selecting mono at the pre-amp to combine the L and R signal with a single voice coil? Cause that sure does sound like "mono sound from a single speaker", which is a concept I can deal with:D.
Probably Well maybe the driver can shoot sound left (with a right voice coil pushing it) and right (with a left voice coil) to give a stereo effect? You'd have to dissect it to really know how it works.
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
For the following linked item, the specifications list:

Do they know what they are talking about (I don't:confused:)?

http://www.emptek.com/special_Xrock.php

Thanks!
Dual VC rock speakers are good for placing far apart and not having to worry about hearing only one channel. Listen to old Beatles vocal tracks and you'll know what I mean. If you put two stereo speakers 30' apart, you'll hear vocals coming out of one speaker but you'll be too far from the other for it to sound decent. They make ceiling speakers this way, too. As I posted about distributed audio, it's not about separation, it's about covering a large space with sound, without dead spots.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I assume these dual coils are in line on the same driver. Would the end result really be any different than selecting mono at the pre-amp to combine the L and R signal with a single voice coil? Cause that sure does sound like "mono sound from a single speaker", which is a concept I can deal with:D.
A lot of equipment doesn't have a mono switch, so it's always stereo. That's why these exist. The other ways to make one speaker carry two channels involves using a summing network before the amplifier channels or a transformer to sum the signal after the power amp (if it's not a pair of mono-blocks or the amp uses a pair of output transformers).
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's an outdoor rock speaker. Who knows what kind of electronics are meant to go with it. My guess is it's meant to be a mono speaker but designed to be used with any (outdoor?) stereo receiver, since I doubt someone in a swimming pool is concerned with stereo imaging.



Probably Well maybe the driver can shoot sound left (with a right voice coil pushing it) and right (with a left voice coil) to give a stereo effect? You'd have to dissect it to really know how it works.
Nah, it's just so people can have noise outside. With wind, little birdies and sirens making noise, it's hard to have great sound outside unless it's done right, meaning $$$$. They use fairly cheap drivers and the housing is usually pretty crappy. I haven't heard (m)any rock speakers that sound like much of anything. I have heard some flower pots that sounded better, though. Seriously- they make those with speakers inside, too.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That sounds to this layman like the worst idea in history.

So there's a tug of war between the magnets with the signals are out-of-phase?

If you want merged L/R signals: do it in the crossover like a normal person.
Have you ever noticed how many dual voice coil car subwoofers are out there? Done right, there's no issue with phase but done wrong, it definitely cancels.

Again, these aren't for great sound- they're made to have noise outside. They usually sound pretty hollow and almost completely lacking in bass. It's just a coaxial speaker in a bad imitation of a rock, nothing more or less.

Layman? Hardly. A layman would hear them and say, "Wow! These are great! How much?"
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Have you ever noticed how many dual voice coil car subwoofers are out there? Done right, there's no issue with phase but done wrong, it definitely cancels.
I believe there are two voice-coils on mt JL W7's. As I understood it: that had nothing to do with two signals (indeed, there's only one set of inputs) and everything to do with keeping a voice coil in the magnetic gap during high extrusion.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I believe there are two voice-coils on mt JL W7's. As I understood it: that had nothing to do with two signals (indeed, there's only one set of inputs) and everything to do with keeping a voice coil in the magnetic gap during high extrusion.
Usually, the use a shorting ring to keep the cone in the gap. The usual reason for dual VC woofers has to do with configuration more than anything else. It would allow parallel for an amp channel that can handle a 2 Ohm load and each coil's impedance is 4 Ohms, Wiring the voice coils in series when the load for each will need to be 8 Ohms and the system will have more than one woofer with the woofers wired parallel or this can be carried further in a system with 4 or 8 woofers. Manufacturers don't recommend wiring dual VC woofers in stereo because of the hard use they see- the current and heat generated makes it possible to tear the voice coil apart if the amp channels aren't in synch. A small dual VC speaker made for distributing sound isn't make to handle this kind of use and they don't usually produce deep bass, anyway.

Some woofers have a second coil when they're used in a servo-controlled system (also called Motional Feedback) but it's not there to produce sound, just feedback to the controller. If you measure the same DC resistance on both coils, it's not servo-controlled and I'm pretty JL uses dual VC for the configuration aspect. I don't know if we talked about that when I called them for info the last time (the hazard of talking to someone for the first time in years is that we ended up talking about too much to remember everything).
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
You guys have me cracking up & face palming at the same time.... literally.

This is not incredibly complicated & has been around for a long time. Many many manufacturers (as in almost every) have some sort of version of a DVC or "single point stereo" speaker in their lineup. This EMP/RBH version that uses 1 tweeter is an anomaly & I suspect a typo.

DVC/Single Point Stereo = A single box with 2 tweeters - one for the left channel & one for the right channel sharing one woofer.

Why is this needed/wanted? Small spaces (like a bathroom or shower or kitchen) where there is no need or room to space out L/R. Or a patio/back yard where it is a more efficient use of space. how is this wired? Like any other pair of speakers.... Four conductors back to whatever amplifier is being used. Essentially allowing 2 separate channels of sound (stereo) from one box.

Here are some other examples of this AMAZING "new" technology (sarcasm ;))....

Jamo - http://www.jamo.com/eu-en/products/rock-6-3a-description/
- I use this in my master bath... It's excellent... http://www.jamo.com/eu-en/products/i-o-6-52dvca2-description/
RBH - Here is an in-ceiling model. I was a dealer of RBH & have used it roughly 7 times. It is pretty good. Notice how there are 2 tweeters (not one like the rock says). http://www.rbhsound.com/a615d.shtml
Paradigm - Here is an upper end version http://www.paradigm.com/products/paradigm-reference/in-wall-in-ceiling/signature-series/sig-adp . A lot of Bi-pole/di-pole/mono/stereo in-walls are available.
Phase Tech has 2 kinds - http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=CI-6.2-QM & http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=CI-SURR
Klipsch - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cdt-2650-sc-overview/
Canton - http://www.canton.de/en/prohouse/inwall_inceiling/produkt/inceiling650dt.htm
Atlantic Technology - http://atlantictechnology.com/default.asp?NodeId=66

And the list goes on & on & on & on. If anyone has a small space and wants sound a DVC/Single point stereo speaker is a great solution. It also cuts down on half of your work if you're doing one in-ceiling or in-wall.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
And the list goes on & on & on & on. If anyone has a small space and wants sound a DVC/Single point stereo speaker is a great solution. It also cuts down on half of your work if you're doing one in-ceiling or in-wall.
It helps when the house is old and the walls/ceilings are plaster, too. Do you know of a supplier for carbide hole saws that are larger than 6" diameter? I'd love to be able to make one cut and not get dust all over the house.
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
It helps when the house is old and the walls/ceilings are plaster, too. Do you know of a supplier for carbide hole saws that are larger than 6" diameter? I'd love to be able to make one cut and not get dust all over the house.
I'm here for you, Brotha'.

Try this..... http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-7385

Or this.....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=360-300

Personally, I like the 2nd one better. We use them all the time, just make sure you know what's above you! These work excellent on plaster & limit the mess to essentially zero.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm here for you, Brotha'.

Try this..... http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-7385

Or this.....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=360-300

Personally, I like the 2nd one better. We use them all the time, just make sure you know what's above you! These work excellent on plaster & limit the mess to essentially zero.
I don't know why I don't usually look at PE for installation tools. The second has the carbide cutters- do they wear when you cut old plaster? I've had a run on retro work in old houses and the plaster is beating the crap out of all of my blades. Even bi-metal suffers a quick death.

I usually cut a small hole to explore before I make the real cut. I bought a USB flexi-camera and it has paid for itself several times already.

I really don't like the prices at ADI and Skywalker's stuff is often cheesy. The PE cutter looks like a winner- I think I'll order one ASAP. Thanks for the links.
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
I don't know why I don't usually look at PE for installation tools. The second has the carbide cutters- do they wear when you cut old plaster? I've had a run on retro work in old houses and the plaster is beating the crap out of all of my blades. Even bi-metal suffers a quick death.

I usually cut a small hole to explore before I make the real cut. I bought a USB flexi-camera and it has paid for itself several times already.

I really don't like the prices at ADI and Skywalker's stuff is often cheesy. The PE cutter looks like a winner- I think I'll order one ASAP. Thanks for the links.
Plaster tends to beat up most anything, but I wouldn't say these are particularly fragile. Replacement blades are available at PE as well & aren't brutally expensive. Those are about the best solutions available that I can find. I'm very fortunate that Parts Express & MCM are both within 20 mins of us so I can try out a lot of these things and return them easily if they go bad or are junk.

Good luck! Hope you like it!
 
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