Big upgrade

[Kaz-maN]

I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to dip into the ultra high-end audio world. Right now I would say I'm in a pretty good spot where the price to performance ratio is pretty good. I've certainly enjoyed my system for about 2yrs, and I'm very grateful to even get this far in the high-end audio world. I'm still a fairly new audiophile. I've exposed myself to some higher end audio from the likes of Wilson audio, Magico, B&W, Sonus Faber, Magnepan, Vandersteen, etc...

There's one speaker manufacturer I'm dying to hear though, Avalon Acoustics. I've heard about this company several months ago, and ever since then I dream about what they could sound like. I actually just got finished demoing the Magico's for the first time earlier today. I listened to the Magico V.3's. I thought they sounded alright, but I wasn't really impressed or anything. I actually thought the Wilson Sophia 3's sounded just a little bit better, and considering that they're $10k cheaper than the V.3's I was quite impressed. The V.3's have a natural sound like the Wilsons's, but a bit lack luster for my taste and they really didn't seem to have any bass which defeats the purpose of a floorstander. I loved the way the imaging was played out, but I don't know it just really didn't seem to do it for me.

The thing is; is that this store had a a pair of Avalon Acoustics Ascendents, but since the owner was pressed for time I never got to hear them. Now normally this wouldn't be a problem and I could just go back anytime, but I will be leaving the country for work related reasons not too long from now for several months so demoing them soon really isn't an option. Just curious to know, what are your guys impressions of the Avalons?

Because audio seems to be such hit or miss, my speaker budget is very broad. I'm thinking of a budget anywhere between $10-$30k an the absolute max. I figure I should expand it to keep my options open to know what I'm getting into. Keep in mind, this range is just for speakers. Do you guys have any advice for me when going to this high-end of audio? Thanks guys, your advice is very much appreciated.

 

[GranteedEV]

My advice is that you're wasting money and it's not just a matter of bang for buck, it's a matter of bang. Once you get into the ultra high end you're often LOSING performance in exchange for pretty cabinets.

If you want to check out actually worthwhile speakers, get away from most of the ultra high end garbage. The most I would spend wouldn't go over 15,000 for starters, as at those price points you're already looking at worthy flagship speakers like the Salk Soundscape, RBH T30-LSE, B&W 800 series, Focal Pro SM11, and even used Revel Salons. Speakers costing twice as much, quite frankly, will probably not even be half as good as these things!

And honestly, if it's this ultra high end, it better be so heavy you need a forklift to lift it. Even cheaper yet may be a possible better sounding speaker like the Gedlee Summa or Linkwitz Orion.

Really, once you hit a certain threshold of "near-but-not-perfection" of that type of stuff, you instead get into an opposite territory of stuff that's intensionally coloured and awful.

 

[Kaz-maN]

I absolutely agree with you man. I've gone through things like this where I thought my $2k paradigm sounded better than a speaker that costed $10k+. I really do believe alot of stuff is marketing. I just have an extreme budget in hopes that I find that perfect speaker (I know I doubt it). So far I've been most impressed with the bowers and wilkins new 800 series and Wilson audio. Both of these companies I think have a similar sound. The Wilson sasha w/p I actually thought was pretty impressive, but at $28k I don't know if its really worth it. The cost of diminishing returns really sets in when you go past the $10k mark it seems. At that point I don't think any speaker sounds significantly better than the other past $10k, just different in taste really. It gets confusing, plus you have to factor in the electronics that was used.

 

[JerryLove]

It gets confusing, plus you have to factor in the electronics that was used.

Which is where I'd recommend the extra money goes. Though if you are planning 9.2 surround, total speaker costs can get quite high with even "moderate" high-end speakers.

Let's say the B&W 800di for example ($22k a pair?). If they are like the N, they are rated to 2kw @8ohm. Not a lot of amps do that (the McIntosh that does is something like $30k per mono-amp, so I'd go for the 1.2kw as it's close enough in performance as likely makes no difference).

Once you have an electrician run your 220v lines and an engineer overhaul the acoustics in your room (the floor is floating, yes?)... there are plenty of places to spend tens-of-thousands other than the speakers themselves.

Still. Can I come listen? Oh, and if you want to donate your old Studio's, I'll give them a good home

 

[KEW]

I absolutely agree with you man. I've gone through things like this where I thought my $2k paradigm sounded better than a speaker that costed $10k+. I really do believe alot of stuff is marketing. I just have an extreme budget in hopes that I find that perfect speaker (I know I doubt it). So far I've been most impressed with the bowers and wilkins new 800 series and Wilson audio. Both of these companies I think have a similar sound. The Wilson sasha w/p I actually thought was pretty impressive, but at $28k I don't know if its really worth it. The cost of diminishing returns really sets in when you go past the $10k mark it seems. At that point I don't think any speaker sounds significantly better than the other past $10k, just different in taste really. It gets confusing, plus you have to factor in the electronics that was used.

If I were in your shoes, I would buy (assuming they fare well in an audition) a pair of Signature S-2's for reference. Live with them for a couple of weeks while looking for places where you can audition the speakers you seek (I think GranteedAV offers a good list of candidates - I would also add Harbeth to the list, but looking at the best speakers made by companies well established in the low-mid end seem smarter than looking at speaker companies which market only to the exotic high end).
Hopefully you have some time to go with the money, because my suggestion is take the S-2's and go on the road. Find audio shops close to you which offer speakers you are after. PM forum members that have speakers you are interested in and ask if they are willing to let you visit for a listening session to compare against your S-2's.
IMHO, it is very important to bring your own speakers (which you are used to in your room) for comparison because your own speakers might blow you away in someone else's carefully set up listening room! It would suck to go listen to and buy $$$XYZ speakers (after being stunned with their SQ) only to return home with them and realize marginal improvement over your own speakers in your room.
If you find your own speakers sound amazing in another room, stop looking at speakers and start figuring out how to improve your room before you go further. IMHO, that would be a very beneficial determination. In that vein, you might want to check this out before you do anything:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/acoustics/auralex-room-analysis-plus
Something like the $250 option to find out if your room is problematic is one hell of a deal if you plan to spend tens of thousands on speakers!

 

[GranteedEV]

I really do believe alot of stuff is marketing. I just have an extreme budget in hopes that I find that perfect speaker (I know I doubt it).

Well there is no perfect speaker, no matter how much you spend.

If you do want a significant improvement over what you have, you need to look into things that break the rules. It may be time to get away from thinking money can buy what you want, and instead do the research necessary to know what speakers sound excellent.

For starters you should probably get away from

-Speakers with poor off axis response. Even if it seems to sound good during an audition at the sweet spot, it's just a waste of time.
-Monopole box speakers. Look into open baffle dipole, bipole transmission line, omnipole etc type speakers.
-Passive speakers. You need to look into actively bi and tri amped speakers that don't have an internal passive crossover.
-Passive speakers designed for bi-amping or bi-wiring. yeah..um... no.
-Passive speakers that have impedance dips below 3 ohms with sharp electrical phase angles. Why look for a speaker that requires a $40000 boulder amp to make it sound decent?
-Speakers that require intense room treatments to sound great. The most realistic sounding speaker will sound good in most rooms because of the way it interacts naturally.
-speakers that have poor measurements somewhere. While it's tough to make a speaker that measures perfectly everywhere, it's still possible to eliminate the glaring flaws of most speaker designs. Most ultra high end speakers don't have very respectable measurements IMO. Unfortunately the reality is that you probably won't find many measurements of things that matter. You might find a waterfall and some on/off axis but that doesn't tell the whole story. You yourself need equipment to measure many, many different facets of your loudspeaker properly.
-speakers with a single dome tweeter. these usually suffer in dynamics.

Now finding something that fits all of the above criteria is tough, maybe impossible. Out of the speakers I listed earlier, the Wood Artestry Linkwitz Orion++ is probably the closest thing to fitting the criteria(although you need a bit of distance-from-wall). Even then we all know that it's not the perfect speaker, simply because there is no perfect speaker! And you may find that even if it were the most realistic "perfect" speaker in the world, you may still be unable to enjoy them because you've fallen into the trap of "speakers make the sound we hear" rather than "the sound itself was heard first by a microphone, speakers reproduce that"!

I've found that DIYers seem to (sadly) be more interested in making a minimal flaw speaker than even the better companies. They seem to prove time and time again that relentless engineering and understanding of data will make better speakers than taking a bunch of drivers, putting them in a box, and trying to figure out a crossover that sounds good to the ears of some disinterested reviewer and then selling it. the reason all these diyers don't stick to traditional box 3 way passive speaker designs doesn't seem that they're trying to be avant garde, but they recognize the issues, whereas companies, whether they recognize the issues or not, know that the market dictates the product, not the end result.

 

[JerryLove]

There's a certain builder who shall remain nameless known for building those omnipole low-resonance speakers, and for being unreliable.

For the money involved: Cut me a check and I'll take a month's vacation and go up to VA and ride him like a donkey until the gear is done .

 

[Kaz-maN]

Which is where I'd recommend the extra money goes. Though if you are planning 9.2 surround, total speaker costs can get quite high with even "moderate" high-end speakers.

Let's say the B&W 800di for example ($22k a pair?). If they are like the N, they are rated to 2kw @8ohm. Not a lot of amps do that (the McIntosh that does is something like $30k per mono-amp, so I'd go for the 1.2kw as it's close enough in performance as likely makes no difference).

Once you have an electrician run your 220v lines and an engineer overhaul the acoustics in your room (the floor is floating, yes?)... there are plenty of places to spend tens-of-thousands other than the speakers themselves.

Still. Can I come listen? Oh, and if you want to donate your old Studio's, I'll give them a good home

My paradigms right now are sold to a buddy of mine. If I had posted this earlier i would have considered selling to a form member. Sorry

On another note, I'm still sticking with 5.1. That's all I think is really necessary for what I like to do. Yeah most likely I won't spend anywhere near $30k on a pair of speakers, but it really is only to expand my horizons. I don't make as much money as you guys may think. I do save a lot, but I'm definitely not loaded ( I wish ).

Well there is no perfect speaker, no matter how much you spend.

If you do want a significant improvement over what you have, you need to look into things that break the rules. It may be time to get away from thinking money can buy what you want, and instead do the research necessary to know what speakers sound excellent.

For starters you should probably get away from

-Speakers with poor off axis response. Even if it seems to sound good during an audition at the sweet spot, it's just a waste of time.
-Monopole box speakers. Look into open baffle dipole, bipole transmission line, omnipole etc type speakers.
-Passive speakers. You need to look into actively bi and tri amped speakers that don't have an internal passive crossover.
-Passive speakers designed for bi-amping or bi-wiring. yeah..um... no.
-Passive speakers that have impedance dips below 3 ohms with sharp electrical phase angles. Why look for a speaker that requires a $40000 boulder amp to make it sound decent?
-Speakers that require intense room treatments to sound great. The most realistic sounding speaker will sound good in most rooms because of the way it interacts naturally.
-speakers that have poor measurements somewhere. While it's tough to make a speaker that measures perfectly everywhere, it's still possible to eliminate the glaring flaws of most speaker designs. Most ultra high end speakers don't have very respectable measurements IMO. Unfortunately the reality is that you probably won't find many measurements of things that matter. You might find a waterfall and some on/off axis but that doesn't tell the whole story. You yourself need equipment to measure many, many different facets of your loudspeaker properly.
-speakers with a single dome tweeter. these usually suffer in dynamics.

Now finding something that fits all of the above criteria is tough, maybe impossible. Out of the speakers I listed earlier, the Wood Artestry Linkwitz Orion++ is probably the closest thing to fitting the criteria(although you need a bit of distance-from-wall). Even then we all know that it's not the perfect speaker, simply because there is no perfect speaker! And you may find that even if it were the most realistic "perfect" speaker in the world, you may still be unable to enjoy them because you've fallen into the trap of "speakers make the sound we hear" rather than "the sound itself was heard first by a microphone, speakers reproduce that"!

I've found that DIYers seem to (sadly) be more interested in making a minimal flaw speaker than even the better companies. They seem to prove time and time again that relentless engineering and understanding of data will make better speakers than taking a bunch of drivers, putting them in a box, and trying to figure out a crossover that sounds good to the ears of some disinterested reviewer and then selling it. the reason all these diyers don't stick to traditional box 3 way passive speaker designs doesn't seem that they're trying to be avant garde, but they recognize the issues, whereas companies, whether they recognize the issues or not, know that the market dictates the product, not the end result.

Believe man I know exactly what you mean. I'm not one of those people that just because its more expensive it sounds better. I've proven that false many of times in the past. And yes I do avoid systems that I would call attention whores. I like Paradigm and Bowers and Wilkins because they sound good anywhere. The Wilsons seem pretty decent in this area as well. Plus these speaker manufactures pretty much all have +90db efficiency so they are easy to drive. So my Arcam should be more than sufficient to drive them.

Truth is, I really dig my avr600. I think it sounds great for HT. Music is really good as well, but I know I could for sure improve that with an outboard dac for the music side. I personally like using my computer for a transport more than anything. more convenient, and honestly a computer doesn't sound too bad. I demoed the B&W's, but I have yet to hear a broken in pair. The ones at my local dealer maybe have like 2hrs on them. They were the new 803d's and the 804d's. The electronics for the 803d's were Simaudio moon evolution separates, and analysis oval 9 speaker wire with analysis solo crystal xlr int, and Richard gray 1200c power conditioner. The 804d's had a similar setup, but it was non evolution series Simaudio gear, and it didn't have a power conditioner. They sounded very very similar, the 803d setup definitely had an advantage so it sounded better. Plus the 803d's have some impressive bass. The 804d's have really good bass as well just not as good as the 803d's. The 800 series is overall I think the best bang for the buck in the high-end audio world. The sound stage was nice, detailed, and the diamond tweeters have the most pure sound.

The Wilson audio sophia 3's I heard was on ayre acoustic seperates, and transparent cables for everything. The setup sounded very nice, but likewise I can't stand transparent cables. Transparent seems to mess with the signal a little bit always resulting in suffering mid range. It seems to have a toning effect to some degree which is unnatural for a cable (magic bricks are a no no). Still though the sq and sound stage was quite impressive. I don't think the sophia's are as fast as a bowers and wilkins speaker, but still very good.

My favorite setup had to be Wilson audio x2 mkII floorstander with boulder electronics mono blocks and 1021 media player. My god that was an unbelievable sound. Boulder has to be my favorite electroics company I could only dream of owning. The price for the whole system setup was north of $250k.

 

[Warpdrv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, did you mention if this is going to be a 2 channel thing or replace your HT setup... I assume if its for HT you have kept in mind what the rest of the speakers should be and many of those brands you mentioned don't always offer CC or surrounds to match.

Honestly with a budget like that I wouldn't be in too big a hurry to make a decision....

I have heard many different brands of speakers and I will second the Salk suggestion, if only for a comparison in SQ. It seems that you are quite possibly interested in Looks as well as sound... nothing wrong with that.... but many many of these speakers that offer looks sometimes give up the farm on the SQ....

I'll also give a big +1 on a pair of Paradigm Sig S2's with the Be tweet to use as a ref, they are truly a fantastic speaker that seems to inevitably topple other speakers with their SQ, and sound stage.... they are just that good...

 

[JerryLove]

I like Paradigm and Bowers and Wilkins because they sound good anywhere. The Wilsons seem pretty decent in this area as well. Plus these speaker manufactures pretty much all have +90db efficiency so they are easy to drive. So my Arcam should be more than sufficient to drive them.

I don't care what the efficiency spec says: an N801 is not easy to drive. I suspect that the 800 fares no better there. They are massive 3-way designs that dip down to 3ohm.

Mind you, I suspect it could be done well with 2-4 Emotiva XPA-1's, so the overall cost isn't too high (<$4k) relative to a $20k speaker.

In a small room, honestly, I'd be more than a little tempted to use S2's all around and multiple subs. I have a suspicion that I'm not going to get a better sound any other way than custom.

In a large room, and given such a large budget, I might consider a pair of 800Di's front, the big center (the one with the sphere on it), and something like 805 or Dipole surrounds.

I've not really played with Wilson's.

Of course: if I do have such flexibility in room: I don't think I could resist seeing if I could go all planar. The Maggies in a properly setup room are the most impressive sound I've heard for orchestra.

 

[GranteedEV]

Believe man I know exactly what you mean. I'm not one of those people that just because its more expensive it sounds better. I've proven that false many of times in the past. And yes I do avoid systems that I would call attention whores. I like Paradigm and Bowers and Wilkins because they sound good anywhere. The Wilsons seem pretty decent in this area as well. Plus these speaker manufactures pretty much all have +90db efficiency so they are easy to drive. So my Arcam should be more than sufficient to drive them.

At the end of the day paradigm and B&W are still passive monopole box speakers that allow for bi-wiring and passive bi amping and single dome tweeters... they're essentially exactly what I just recommended staying away from... so I don't think you know exactly what I mean at all!

I demoed the B&W's, but I have yet to hear a broken in pair. The ones at my local dealer maybe have like 2hrs on them.

speaker breakin only occurs to high excursion drivers with stiff surrounds. Trust me, don't expect a broken in pair to sound much different. At most it might have a quarter octave more bass extension.

Oh, and speaker sensitivity is only one factor in how easy to drive it is. Impedance is far more important.

 

[Kaz-maN]

I've heard the paradigm s2's as well as the s6's. They sound great, i really dont think there is a huge difference in sound though from my studios. I've heard the s6's with the arcam av888/p777. And im not too concerned on looks really. The looks factor is just a bonus.

To be realistic, i could justify getting 802di's with the matching center. Keep my receiver, get an outboard dac for music, upgrade the wires, and go with some cm1 surrounds. I could get this all done for under $30k even after taxes.

 

[GranteedEV]

upgrade the wires

huh? What, are you taking them to a shaman?

 

[Kaz-maN]

huh? What, are you taking them to a shaman?

I would go with a bigger gauge version of my oval 12 which is oval 9. Its preferable if you're going to go with a big speaker like an 803d or 802d. It will give you more bass.

 

[JerryLove]

I would go with a bigger gauge version of my oval 12 which is oval 9. Its preferable if you're going to go with a big speaker like an 803d or 802d. It will give you more bass.

Snake oil (unless you have very long runs).

Here's the chart: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

You can use generic copper wire from Home Depot, Monoprice, or Parts Express (the for-burial wire is often a good deal).

 

[KEW]

I've heard the paradigm s2's as well as the s6's. They sound great, i really dont think there is a huge difference in sound though from my studios. I've heard the s6's with the arcam av888/p777. And im not too concerned on looks really. The looks factor is just a bonus.

To be realistic, i could justify getting 802di's with the matching center. Keep my receiver, get an outboard dac for music, upgrade the wires, and go with some cm1 surrounds. I could get this all done for under $30k even after taxes.

Your current system is pretty decent.
Recognize that you are at a point where it takes a good bit of money to buy a little bit of performance. I suggested the S-2's because, IMHO, they are clearly better than the Studios (I own both and have compared them in my own room), and they are portable. I agree that the difference is not huge. Based on your other posts, you may be expecting a bigger improvement than you will actually experience. If you have been reading articles about the "tremendous benefits of cable upgrades" you have also likely been reading plenty of BS which could lead you to believe that better speakers will render your good speakers intolerable to listen to!

 

[Kaz-maN]

Your current system is pretty decent.
Recognize that you are at a point where it takes a good bit of money to buy a little bit of performance. I suggested the S-2's because, IMHO, they are clearly better than the Studios (I own both and have compared them in my own room), and they are portable. I agree that the difference is not huge. Based on your other posts, you may be expecting a bigger improvement than you will actually experience. If you have been reading articles about the "tremendous benefits of cable upgrades" you have also likely been reading plenty of BS which could lead you to believe that better speakers will render your good speakers intolerable to listen to!

I know my system is pretty decent already, but I've grown out of it. The signature series is beautiful sounding, but i think the B&W series is even more of a jump in performance. I know a fair amount about cables. I can tell you that most cables out there have what is called a sonic signature as I'm sure a lot of you know already. Most do it on purpose I would say. There are very very few companies that I feel have the right philosophy, and that cables should sound like nothing. Basically meaning you only want to hear your components without your cables getting in the way (no negative influence). Analysis-plus, Kimber kable, and ultralink/Xlo electric I feel go by this philosophy. I'm sure there might actually be a few others out there, but I haven't ran into them. So yes I do realize the benefits of cables can be little, and actually in some cases have the exact opposite effect

 

[Kaz-maN]

Snake oil (unless you have very long runs).

Here's the chart: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

You can use generic copper wire from Home Depot, Monoprice, or Parts Express (the for-burial wire is often a good deal).

Let me guess you would also tell me power conditioners have no benefits as well. I've done tests with this stuff first hand, and I can tell you that there is a difference. Wire does make a difference. Whether its a little difference or a big one, it does make a difference. This is exactly why I don't read non sense like this. If you don't try it for yourself you'll never know the truth. I'm really not hating on you or anything man, it just bothers me when someone posts they're own article about something that simply is not true. A while back someone on here wanted to say there is no difference in upgrading an amplifier as well since it will make no difference in sound. I will say this one thing and that will be the end of my rant.. (Any part or component that passes a signal has an influence on sound PERIOD!)

 

[JerryLove]

Oh my...

Let me guess you would also tell me power conditioners have no benefits as well.

I will. As will anyone who understands how the capaciter in a power-supply works.

I've done tests with this stuff first hand, and I can tell you that there is a difference. Wire does make a difference. Whether its a little difference or a big one, it does make a difference. This is exactly why I don't read non sense like this. If you don't try it for yourself you'll never know the truth.

But before I sit back and watch the death of this thread (will it be a bang or a whimper?), I'll make a suggestion. Open up those Paradigm Studios, or Sigs, or a pair of 802's and look at the voice coils, the speaker magnets, the crossovers, and the connections between them. Dozens (hundreds?) of feet of normal copper wire.

I'm really not hating on you or anything man, it just bothers me when someone posts they're own article about something that simply is not true.

You think I'm Roger Russell? That's the best compliment I've been given all week. Thanks!

A while back someone on here wanted to say there is no difference in upgrading an amplifier as well since it will make no difference in sound. I will say this one thing and that will be the end of my rant..

Depends on the speakers, current amp, and listening level.

(Any part or component that passes a signal has an influence on sound PERIOD!)

In the analog world? Sure, why not. Is that influence audible? Does it even exceed the noise-floor threshold?

But hey: you've measured. No doubt with an oscilloscope full of generic copper wiring? Audioholics is pretty big on measurements: why don't you post your data and interpretation?

 

[Kaz-maN]

I guess there is no need to try things for myself, I'll just listen to o'l Roger he knows everything. I don't need measurements to prove a point my friend so NO I don't have measurements that I have done myself. However I do have one article from a person who was a sceptic. I apoligize for the quality of the screen shots.