Going Insane - $5k budget - 2.? music system

[Below10hz]

I am building a 2.? system largely to play orchestral and organ music CDs quite loud.

I have the following factors ---

1) No WAF (no W......)
2) Large Room 20wX20dX15h with staircase. Open floor plan. Tile floors with central carpet square.
3) $5K budget. Could go a bit higher if needed but would like to keep at that point
4) Lots of room for subs. I have a wall 20' across that can contain it.
5) Existing equipment (2x Emotiva monoblocks, USP-1 Emotiva Preamp, 2x Cerwin Vega CLS 215, Emotiva ref CD player)
6) I have ONE RCA and ONE XLR output on the USP-1.

Options:

1) 4x Elemental Designs A7-450 -- $3200 ---Can't be stacked
2) 4x Epik Empires -- $2799 ---Can be stacked
3) 2x Elemental Designs A7-900 -- $5k -- 400 lbs each

Velvodine SMS-1 or SVS ASEQ-1 processing. Velvodine only allows 3 subs to be connected

Don't know anything about the SVS - I just heard of it like 5 mins ago reading here.

Comments on these combinations are welcome. Wondering if I am going too big? Promise to post pics once system is complete.

 

[shadyJ]

For maximum raw low frequency output, I think it would be hard to beat ED's A7-900. I would call up ED to see how two A7-900s compare to four A7-450s. Epik and SVS do not have anything that can compare to that. In that price range and with your goals, I would contact Danley Soundlabs to see what they can do for you. Also worth contacting Mark Seaton, he could have some ideas, especially with his Terrafom line of subs.

The thing about Pipe Organs is none of them play lower than 16 hertz, so whatever you get should be tuned at around there. Be sure to mention that to any of these sub manufacturers that you talk to. If you tell them your performance goals, they will be in a better position to help you achieve them.

Man, I envy you! High budget + no WAF = bass heaven!

 

[Matt34]

What are your speakers that you will be using?

If you can build these or even if you get someone to build a couple for you this is what I would do for way under 5k even when amps are figured in:

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html

Commercially I would go with two of these (powered models):

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/

or a single sub solution, Mark Seaton Terraform XL:

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3366417

 

[MinusTheBear]

Another option that could fill your need for bass is Funky Waves. They would also be able to provide you with custom options to fit your needs as well.

http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_18_0

 

[GranteedEV]

To be honest here's what I'd do

Subwoofers

Don't bother with stacking. Space them out well in order to get good in-room response. I recommend a horn loaded design like the Danley DTS-20 etc if you want output/deep extension.

Otherwise a pair of Rythmik FV15HP or FV25s will be plenty IMHO.
A third or fourth would be nice regardless of what you get.

Now on the speaker front I recommend something like the Mark Seaton Catalyst or JTR Quintuple.

 

[Below10hz]

I would contact Danley Soundlabs to see what they can do for you. Also worth contacting Mark Seaton, he could have some ideas, especially with his Terrafom line of subs.

I have looked at both of these before. I am sure Mark is running a thriving operation as my email to him is not yet replied. I was able to contact someone at eD immediately and I liked their friendly responses.

Man, I envy you! High budget + no WAF = bass heaven!

I am gettin' my goods before the ball and chain get attached. Marry me, marry my subs

 

[KEW]

Your room is 20 X 20 X 15!
My limited understanding is that having a square room is problematic with respect to tuning your bass.

You should post the question about room and bass interaction here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

I don't know if this would impact your choice of subs or not, but it is good that you plan to use more than one!
You may be advised to buy 4 subs instead of 2 to help with that room, but see what the guys say about your room acoustics.

 

[its phillip]

The specs on these look pretty impressive :O

http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=128&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=121

All the subs listed are impressive as well of course

 

[KEW]

I am wearing out this response, but I never know how much someone has read and this thread has gotten too big to be an easy read:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67724

In brief, Audioholics is doing a subwoofer shootout with six well respected subs:
HSU VTF-15H
Rythmik FV15HP
Funkywaves FW12.X SA1000
SVS PB12-Plus
Salk SongSub
RBH Sound SX-12

The review is performed by a guy with a background in speaker design, and it sounds like there will be much more in measurements and analysis than any typical sub review. The review is likely to be out by the end of the year. Even if you have no interest in the models being reviewed, I think there will be a lot to learn from this review and you would do well to wait for it.

 

[Below10hz]

The specs on these look pretty impressive :O

http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=128&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=121

All the subs listed are impressive as well of course

Looks very tempting to consider the monolith too. Too bad he doesn't have any pics out there. His price point is amazing.

 

[its phillip]

Yeah, I dunno whats up with some sellers/manufacturers and halfassed websites. It can't be that hard to have a half-decent webstore or have some pictures at the very least :/

 

[Below10hz]

Yeah, I dunno whats up with some sellers/manufacturers and halfassed websites. It can't be that hard to have a half-decent webstore or have some pictures at the very least :/

I totally agree. I am especially surprised that Mark Seaton has not been able to get a better web site on line for his products. When I went there at first, I was wondering where his home page was. I thought I was stuck in the forums. But his web site IS a forum

 

[jostenmeat]

Velvodine SMS-1 or SVS ASEQ-1 processing. Velvodine only allows 3 subs to be connected

Don't know anything about the SVS - I just heard of it like 5 mins ago reading here.

Comments on these combinations are welcome. Wondering if I am going too big? Promise to post pics once system is complete.

The ASEQ1 can do dual subs. If for some reason you get more than two subs, look at the BassQ by JBL. More expensive though.

I would try the DIY route if I were you. It's easy to say, but I built my first this year, though admittedly much, much easier as a kit. Then I repaired a speaker, pretty easy. Then I built a false wall and screen, more work there. My sub is a DTS10; I have to warn you it is just silly heavy though. It is so efficient that it's notched down maybe 14db or so from my front three. I mean, that's a silly huge difference. I then put a shelving filter at the very bottom end after EQ for the very low stuff.

The above said, I'd be looking at the Seaton and JTR stuff too, among others.

Check out the Tuba HT by Fitzmaurice, for plans to build an awesome sub. Oh I see Matt already linked it, so you know already, nevermind.

With your budget, you could build four of those, get the BassQ, yet have money to spare, and simply have more bass than you could possibly know what to do with. Again, these are very efficient; you can save money on the amplifier end since you won't need much power. If I were to build subwoofers again, so to speak, these would be the first consideration for me, I believe. Yes, I'd make my friend help me. If you built four, I'd start budgeting for window replacements though. Heck you could probably break a window with just one of them.


EDIT: I see that the room is 20x20x10. Oh that's going to have massive modal issues. Hmm. I'd start looking for a different room.

 

[Below10hz]

EDIT: I see that the room is 20x20x10. Oh that's going to have massive modal issues. Hmm. I'd start looking for a different room.

LMAO -

Just bought the Velvodine SMS-1. First piece of the puzzle is on it's way

 

[Below10hz]

This is getting MORE INSANE

Ok - I've ruled out the Epiks as too small for my purposes. I've pretty much decided on an eD product. I do have another option though.

Now it's between their A7-900 and their A7-650 ($2100 shipped)

Here is a plot of responses (A7-900)



Here is a plot of the A7-650:



It looks like to me that the A7-900 is a better response below 20Hz, but not that much better. How can it do this with a 13" driver vs a 18" driver on the A7-900 I guess driver size is not everything (if I believe their charts).

I am now looking very seriously at the A7-650

 

[GranteedEV]

If you want insane bass get the funky waves with the neodymium 18" driver. A single one can hit 125+ db and extend extremely deep. You can discuss with him what you want and he can tailor the box for your needs.

More importantly, it's rather linear that you won't hear distortion at any listening volumes.

 

[KEW]

LMAO -

Just bought the Velvodine SMS-1. First piece of the puzzle is on it's way

The SMS-1 is indeed a nice piece of hardware, but you really want to take all measures you can to reduce the room modes before the SMS is used.
With L=W=.5(H), you are going to see major standing waves which will produce suck outs. You can turn up the volume at the EQ which means you will have a larger wave being canceled by a larger reflection. IOW, it won't matter what you do at the SMS the suck-out will persist.
I think there are ways to reduce the suck out such as multiple subs strategically positioned, but Jostenmeat is not being sarcastic when he suggests you change rooms.
You are talking about $5k which will buy very nice subwoofer(s), but if you don't deal with the room, your sound quality will not be able to compete with a $500 sub in a typical room.

Sorry, but I just don't want you to buy some really nice subs and then think we gave you bad advice when you listen to them and they don't seem very musical!

 

[Below10hz]

The SMS-1 is indeed a nice piece of hardware, but you really want to take all measures you can to reduce the room modes before the SMS is used.
With L=W=.5(H), you are going to see major standing waves which will produce suck outs. You can turn up the volume at the EQ which means you will have a larger wave being canceled by a larger reflection. IOW, it won't matter what you do at the SMS the suck-out will persist.
I think there are ways to reduce the suck out such as multiple subs strategically positioned, but Jostenmeat is not being sarcastic when he suggests you change rooms.
You are talking about $5k which will buy very nice subwoofer(s), but if you don't deal with the room, your sound quality will not be able to compete with a $500 sub in a typical room.

Sorry, but I just don't want you to buy some really nice subs and then think we gave you bad advice when you listen to them and they don't seem very musical!

I absolutely take your point as correct. I was being a bit sarcastic about another room in the view of these behemoths being 400+ pounds. In my case I would be moving them upstairs

This is why I am now considering the A7-650's as something a bit more mobile. I am waiting on eD to respond to some emailed questions on these subs.

I would not blame anyone here if I had gotten something I did not like as I know this involves a lot of subjective listening experiences on top of more objective evidence such as subwoofer design, room sizes and layouts, etc.

I came here to see what people think but ultimately it's my dime

Whatever happens I will communicate my impressions whatever they are worth and perhaps that will add to the substance we are all seeking here.

 

[Matt34]

Some numbers on the JTR Captivator I posted earlier:

2011 JTR Captivator *<10% THD continuous*
119dB @ 15 Hz
120dB @ 20 Hz
121dB @ 25 Hz
122dB @ 31.5 Hz
123dB @ 40 Hz and above

At $1000/ea (minus amp) you could get four plus four behringer EP4000. Probably destroy your room while your at it and if four ported 18's can't, don't think much else will.

 

[dalumberjack]

I say wait for the shoot out.

You might be surprised what the numbers show for this subs which are pretty cheap. Considering their price you could afford 4 of them (which seems to perform the best for your situation) and you will have that chest pounding bass you want.

I think the VTF-15h will perform well. Couldn't imagine 4 of those in a room.



BUT... a Terraform XL would be AWESOME!