Under-the-floor sub-woofers

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sirjamesbarrie

Audiophyte
Fellow Travelers:

I have a very capable audiophile system - B&W Nautilus' speakers, 'Classe' PA, Meridian front-ends - in a large irregular listening room/theater. Now and then, however, I would like such things as organ pipes and very deep bass drums (such as the 8-footer found in Mahler symphonies) to shake things up rather more dramatically.

So I am planning to mount two 12" subs underneath this floor, which sits on the crawl space, and provide about a kilowatt of peak drive capacity. But for obvious reasons, I don't want to cut into the floor. Instead, I plan to mount these speakers on a 1-1/2" plywood surface, about 4 feet square, and then drop two-by-fours to the rock foundation to mount this large "baffle board" about 6" distant from the floor above. The audio bandwidth would be limited to about 10-80Hz, maybe using a three-pole LPF for the "high" frequencies.

Has anyone ever tried this? It's a bit arcane, I admit. Please don't tell me to cut into the floor!

Barrie
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Have you heard of IB (infinte baffle) subs? Well, I don't understand what you're trying to do, and even if I did, I couldn't help you because I don't know enough.

Are you willing to cut into the ceiling instead? If so, check out this forum to learn more.

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi
 
C

Chitown2477

Audioholic
I defer to the some more technical responses but it seems to me you should simply get a couple of very robust subwoofers and place them in you existing room. This should give you better overall response – and some of the more robust subwoofer will literally shake the room.

Mounting them the way you’re mentioned may be a troublesome as you are likely introducing significantly more cubic space that your subwoofer will see and respond to overall. This will actually detract from your bass response as opposed to adding to it - unless you are literally seated on top of the subwoofer. Have your considered tactile bass transducers or bass shaker installed in your seating area to augment a subwoofer?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Fellow Travelers:

I have a very capable audiophile system - B&W Nautilus' speakers, 'Classe' PA, Meridian front-ends - in a large irregular listening room/theater. Now and then, however, I would like such things as organ pipes and very deep bass drums (such as the 8-footer found in Mahler symphonies) to shake things up rather more dramatically.

So I am planning to mount two 12" subs underneath this floor, which sits on the crawl space, and provide about a kilowatt of peak drive capacity. But for obvious reasons, I don't want to cut into the floor. Instead, I plan to mount these speakers on a 1-1/2" plywood surface, about 4 feet square, and then drop two-by-fours to the rock foundation to mount this large "baffle board" about 6" distant from the floor above. The audio bandwidth would be limited to about 10-80Hz, maybe using a three-pole LPF for the "high" frequencies.

Has anyone ever tried this? It's a bit arcane, I admit. Please don't tell me to cut into the floor!

Barrie
I am not sure you will get much benefit from this arrangement. You are expecting to transfer usable audio into the listening area without an opening in the floor? Just the air impact on the floor itself? And, just a baffle board without a box in the same space?
But, there is not much loss in trying.

By the way, if you want to reproduce the frequency band you are after and with some authority, you need to think 18" drivers, not 12".
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Fellow Travelers:

I have a very capable audiophile system - B&W Nautilus' speakers, 'Classe' PA, Meridian front-ends - in a large irregular listening room/theater. Now and then, however, I would like such things as organ pipes and very deep bass drums (such as the 8-footer found in Mahler symphonies) to shake things up rather more dramatically.

So I am planning to mount two 12" subs underneath this floor, which sits on the crawl space, and provide about a kilowatt of peak drive capacity. But for obvious reasons, I don't want to cut into the floor. Instead, I plan to mount these speakers on a 1-1/2" plywood surface, about 4 feet square, and then drop two-by-fours to the rock foundation to mount this large "baffle board" about 6" distant from the floor above. The audio bandwidth would be limited to about 10-80Hz, maybe using a three-pole LPF for the "high" frequencies.

Has anyone ever tried this? It's a bit arcane, I admit. Please don't tell me to cut into the floor!

Barrie
That plan is JPN.

If you want to build an in floor sub, then you have to remove a good deal of the floor. The best systems I have seen is to design a transmission line with the enclosure being made from the floor joists. The speakers and ports must radiate into the room directly, so you do need openings through the floor.

You will need an active low pass filter to drive it, not passive.

Peter J. Baxandall published on a system like this many years ago, which he had in his house. He was the designer of the ubiquitous Baxandall tone control circuits, and still in general use. He had TL subs in his floors back in the sixties long before subs were fashionable.
 
S

Slee_Stack

Junior Audioholic
You need some kind of port to bring the subwoofer output into the room. You will have to cut into the floor in some fashion. If you really wanted to avoid a visible hole in your floor, you could inset a port into an interior wall and cut through the floor inside your wall at the bottom.

What a pain though.

Additionally, you better be sure wherever your port is, your bass is distributed to your liking. There isn't any moving it afterward without more holes!

You could do something like this for minimal floor cutting:
 

Attachments

annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
In floor designs are an intriguing idea, though to do them right a lot of planning and forethought is required.

First off the correct location needs to be selected. Keep in mind that the best sounding location for placement in the room (after proper testing) may not exactly be where you want to cut a hole in the floor. Nor may it be a location where the enclosure can be located beneath the floor as well. That being the case a proper eq such as a DCX 2496 would be of extreme benefit. in going this route regardless of whether or not proper placement could be achieved.

After location is sorted out then you have to consider how to properly design the system. A plenum is a good idea here, but then one must also remember that the vent or port cannot terminate into the plenum. It must terminate into the room itself. The primary reason is that the plenum will actually act as though it is a further extension of the vent/port. This will cause a misalignment of the actually tuning frequency of the enclosure and could drastically alter performance.

The next item to consider is that if going vented the woofer must also fire into the plenum chamber or directly into the room. The design is completely possible but takes a very creative design approach.

Then, isolation is also a very important item of consideration so that you do not cause rattling, vibration, etc. One will essentially want the woofer to be on a floating mounting system so that it is not hard mounted to any area of the surrounding structure.


An easy way around this is also the use of an infinite baffle in-floor sub system. Then one essentially just needs a plenum chamber to fire the woofers into. There would be no worry of the vent or additional enclosures to mount, etc.

Here is a great option for an IB sub system: IB15

4 of these in a plenum chamber IB setup would provide stellar results. Combined with an EP4000 from Behringer with two of them on each channel and a DCX2496 you could be all set for less than $1K.




Hopefully my customer will allow me to complete the install at their home of a vented in-ceiling design I did so that I can get some pics to help you understand what I am describing here.
 
S

sirjamesbarrie

Audiophyte
Subs in floor

Thanks for the several quick replies.

As I should have expected, there was a general consensus that the proposed idea "won't work". Well, I've spent much of my life pursuing ideas that the naysayers declare to be impraticable - or even impossible, leading to about 100 patents; so in the fullness of time, I will post again to let you know how this particular idea worked out.

Nevertheless, I was hoping to hear from at least one person that this "silly scheme" had been tried already; and what results were obtained. I get the impression, though, that apart from one reference to an "attached photo" that could not be located, most of the replies came from people who simply hadn't tried it.

Thanks, anyway.

Barrie
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Thanks for the several quick replies.

As I should have expected, there was a general consensus that the proposed idea "won't work". Well, I've spent much of my life pursuing ideas that the naysayers declare to be impraticable - or even impossible, leading to about 100 patents; so in the fullness of time, I will post again to let you know how this particular idea worked out.

Nevertheless, I was hoping to hear from at least one person that this "silly scheme" had been tried already; and what results were obtained. I get the impression, though, that apart from one reference to an "attached photo" that could not be located, most of the replies came from people who simply hadn't tried it.
Thanks, anyway.

Barrie
I am not quite sure where you got from our posts that this cannot be done, or that any one was naysaying. The most important part here is to ensure that the planning and design are very closely thought out. This type of system can have great results but it is not something to rush into.
 

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