Turntable Q?'s

[96cobra10101]

I have a Micro Seiki MB-14 with a factory arm and a Shure M70EJ cartridge. I bought it used atleast 10 years ago, maybe 12.
My issue is, I never liked the way it sounded. Almost seemed to "rumble" when I played it, and if the bass is to high it picks it up and sounds like crap. I never really knew if it was the arm, cartridge, platter or the base, or that its a budget table and thats what it does. The MB has been pretty much shelved for a few years now, but since I upgraded my system recently, i have the vinyl bug again. Due to my disapointment with the Micro, I want to upgrade the turntable to a higher quality unit.

So my questions are;

Reccomended turntable in the $1000 range (give or take a few hundred).

Do I need an phono amp (my Onkyo supports phono in)?

What type of stand should I use? A heavy shelf attached to the wall or a floor standing rack better?

I have tons of vinyl, mostly rock, Rainbow, Rush, but also some Commodores and Jackson Brown, that I collected in my younger years before the cd emerged and killed the record, and I want to bring it back to its full glory, atleast in my living room.

 

[3db]

I have a Micro Seiki MB-14 with a factory arm and a Shure M70EJ cartridge. I bought it used atleast 10 years ago, maybe 12.
My issue is, I never liked the way it sounded. Almost seemed to "rumble" when I played it, and if the bass is to high it picks it up and sounds like crap. I never really knew if it was the arm, cartridge, platter or the base, or that its a budget table and thats what it does. The MB has been pretty much shelved for a few years now, but since I upgraded my system recently, i have the vinyl bug again. Due to my disapointment with the Micro, I want to upgrade the turntable to a higher quality unit.

So my questions are;

Reccomended turntable in the $1000 range (give or take a few hundred).

Do I need an phono amp (my Onkyo supports phono in)?

What type of stand should I use? A heavy shelf attached to the wall or a floor standing rack better?

I have tons of vinyl, mostly rock, Rainbow, Rush, but also some Commodores and Jackson Brown, that I collected in my younger years before the cd emerged and killed the record, and I want to bring it back to its full glory, atleast in my living room.

Based on this site

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202329

you have a fairly decent table. It appears you may have two problems, an isolation problem from the bass of the speakers interfering with its pickup and bearings. If you have shop that knows anything about tables, take it there and get them to examine the bearings. They may need to be replaced.

 

[Starmax]

I have a Rega P1 turntable, cost $400, the budget table from a high-end English company - a more than decent player for my needs. It plugs into my Denon 5805 phono amp, which provides an overall sound I'm happy with. I've noticed a huge variation in SQ from one record to the next, which I believe to be the result of uneven LP recording and production standards. Steely Dan's "Aja" and Herbie Hancock's "Rockit" sound amazing, while Jefferson Airplane's "After Bathing at Baxters" sounds flat and tinny. Does anyone know more about why there is such a variance in record quality?

 

[96cobra10101]

Based on this site

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202329

you have a fairly decent table. It appears you may have two problems, an isolation problem from the bass of the speakers interfering with its pickup and bearings. If you have shop that knows anything about tables, take it there and get them to examine the bearings. They may need to be replaced.

Saw that post already, and you're right, its a decent table, but I can do better. Its got a hollow metal plater and the chasis is pressed wood which I don't think helps in sound quality. I looked at the needle Dr, and even the budget tables look to be much better in quality than the Micro. I also don't want to put any money in this unit, you can repair a Yugo, but its still a Yugo not a Vette. I had a Technics years ago that was way better than this, which I wished I had kept.

 

[96cobra10101]

I have a Rega P1 turntable, cost $400, the budget table from a high-end English company - a more than decent player for my needs. It plugs into my Denon 5805 phono amp, which provides an overall sound I'm happy with. I've noticed a huge variation in SQ from one record to the next, which I believe to be the result of uneven LP recording and production standards. Steely Dan's "Aja" and Herbie Hancock's "Rockit" sound amazing, while Jefferson Airplane's "After Bathing at Baxters" sounds flat and tinny. Does anyone know more about why there is such a variance in record quality?

I looked at the Rega's, looked very nice, more precisely the P5. Looked to be around my budget. Your "budget" P1 is probably 10x better than what I am have now, which is the direction I want to go in.

 

[Swerd]

My issue is, I never liked the way it sounded. Almost seemed to "rumble" when I played it, and if the bass is to high it picks it up and sounds like crap. I never really knew if it was the arm, cartridge, platter or the base, or that its a budget table and thats what it does.

What type of stand should I use? A heavy shelf attached to the wall or a floor standing rack better?

As 3db said, the muddy sounding rumble you heard is caused by acoustic feedback caused by speaker vibrations being transmitted through the turntable base and into the tonearm and pickup. Before you spend $$ on a new turntable,try moving the one you have to different locations to isolate it from your speakers. Try placing something (rubber pads, an old phone book, a tray of sand, a partially inflated bicycle inner tube, etc.) under the turntable to help isolate it from speaker vibrations.

Do I need an phono amp (my Onkyo supports phono in)?

I'm pretty certain the Shure you have is a moving magnet cartridge. If so, you can use the phono inputs on your Onkyo.

 

[TLS Guy]

Saw that post already, and you're right, its a decent table, but I can do better. Its got a hollow metal plater and the chasis is pressed wood which I don't think helps in sound quality. I looked at the needle Dr, and even the budget tables look to be much better in quality than the Micro. I also don't want to put any money in this unit, you can repair a Yugo, but its still a Yugo not a Vette. I had a Technics years ago that was way better than this, which I wished I had kept.

I'm no fan of Far Eastern turntables.

I would try and get a good vintage turntable if you can. If you are wise you can get much better gear than what is out now.

I recommend trying to get a Thorens TD 125. They are superb. Then try and get it with an SME arm or get an SME for it, preferably an SME series 3, or a 2 if you can't find a three. Kit it out with an Ortofon Black and you will be close to budget. If you can, mount your turntable out of bass standing wave area, and if you can get it behind doors.

A lot have been snapped up and prices seem on the rise again.

There is this TD 125 on Audiogon ready for an SME 12" arm. He wants $1000, but I would make a lower offer. That is a lot more than I paid for mine.

There is one hard to find SME 12" arm for sale on eBay.

Here is my Thorens TD 125 with SME series 3.

Here is a link to my vintage turntable album.

If you want new, I would get one of these project TTs.

I would get this cartridge.

That will get you about on budget.

 

[96cobra10101]

As 3db said, the muddy sounding rumble you heard is caused by acoustic feedback caused by speaker vibrations being transmitted through the turntable base and into the tonearm and pickup. Before you spend $$ on a new turntable,try moving the one you have to different locations to isolate it from your speakers. Try placing something (rubber pads, an old phone book, a tray of sand, a partially inflated bicycle inner tube, etc.) under the turntable to help isolate it from speaker vibrations.

I'm pretty certain the Shure you have is a moving magnet cartridge. If so, you can use the phono inputs on your Onkyo.

The Micro has large rubber feet, and I had actually tried stacking towels under it to reduce noise without good results. I think acoustically it this turntable is susceptable to noise and vibrations.
Also, I use the phono in on the Onkyo. I was asking about the phono amp because I dion't know if there are any advantages to using one or if its even necessary. My turntable knowledge is pretty limited.

 

[Swerd]

The Micro has large rubber feet, and I had actually tried stacking towels under it to reduce noise without good results. I think acoustically it this turntable is susceptable to noise and vibrations.

It may very well be prone to feedback. But there should still be a way to mount it so that is minimized. Are the rubber feet old and brittle? Is the platter level? Is your cartridge correctly mounted? I don't want you to find out after buying a new turntable that your feedback problem is still present.

Also, I use the phono in on the Onkyo. I was asking about the phono amp because I dion't know if there are any advantages to using one or if its even necessary. My turntable knowledge is pretty limited.

You seem to have bigger problems that what could be solved with a different phono amp. A separate phono amp can introduce new problems, like 60 Hz hum.

 

[3db]

Pressed wood has no affect on the sound of your turntable. Don't fall for that audiophilia type BS. A quiet motor, goodbearings, a good tracking tone arm placed properly on the plinth regardless of what the plinth is made off and an aligned cartridge is what affects the sound.

Now if you can't get the table sounding to your liking, here are a few suggestions:

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=xperience&cat=turntables&lang=en

I have an older Xpression II from ProJect and its tone arm is a carbon composite which humbles most of the tone arms found on vintage tables today.

Other options are Rega P5

http://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-P5-Turntable;jsessionid=mJr9Mr2GvfJ42y8TVlZKXB2WTvn8nlGJJnVCRdG4nyW25b82Zy8qwcpwKTgMqGGYmd1gppQ7RflpbG1m3yTgzxFgLQFtnqK5FknsZHkL2g1W2xk909JRqKrhqhLH3hfL!-1898406136?sc=2&category=353

Cambridge Audio
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=288&Title=TT50+turntable

clearaudio

http://www.clearaudio.de/eng/lw_performance_se.html

 

[Seth=L]

I had a Technics years ago that was way better than this, which I wished I had kept.

No surprise there. The SL-1200 and similar platforms from Technics were some serious tables. They lacked in the tonearm department (although an excellent tonearm for those tables can be found used, albeit pricey), but everything else was/is state of the art. Rumble won't be a common problem on those direct drive, late 70's engineered tables from Technics, Sony, JVC, Pioneer, and particularly Denon. Some of those Denon tables are top shelf gear and they commonly sell for reasonable prices. For under a grand, direct drive is the way to go. Try to find an excellent used direct drive table that can accept an assortment of tonearm options. Having an excellent platform to draw from is invaluable.

I'll never quite understand why I'm in the minority when it comes to direct drive vs. belt drive tables, especially in this price field. Anytime I see a thread started about turntables it turns into Rega this and ProJect that. They're commonly wooden and simple plinth designs with good tonearms. The way I see it, this is absolutely backwards. Starting with a proper platform and maybe a cheap tonearm makes more since than putting a quality tonearm on a piece of wood with 4 rubber feet and a little DC motor with a belt on it. To put it to extremes it's like buying a Toyota Corolla and putting racing slicks on it, what's the point?

 

[3db]

Your rumble sounds excessive and I suspect very strongly that the motor or its bearings were bad from the get go. That can happen on either direct or belt drive systems.

 

[TLS Guy]

No surprise there. The SL-1200 and similar platforms from Technics were some serious tables. They lacked in the tonearm department (although an excellent tonearm for those tables can be found used, albeit pricey), but everything else was/is state of the art. Rumble won't be a common problem on those direct drive, late 70's engineered tables from Technics, Sony, JVC, Pioneer, and particularly Denon. Some of those Denon tables are top shelf gear and they commonly sell for reasonable prices. For under a grand, direct drive is the way to go. Try to find an excellent used direct drive table that can accept an assortment of tonearm options. Having an excellent platform to draw from is invaluable.

I'll never quite understand why I'm in the minority when it comes to direct drive vs. belt drive tables, especially in this price field. Anytime I see a thread started about turntables it turns into Rega this and ProJect that. They're commonly wooden and simple plinth designs with good tonearms. The way I see it, this is absolutely backwards. Starting with a proper platform and maybe a cheap tonearm makes more since than putting a quality tonearm on a piece of wood with 4 rubber feet and a little DC motor with a belt on it. To put it to extremes it's like buying a Toyota Corolla and putting racing slicks on it, what's the point?

Unless you are a DJ and need instant start a belt drive turntable is better, in terms of vibration, wow and flutter.

No electric motor turns perfectly smoothly and the types of servo feedback control motors required for direct drive turntables have small amounts of vibration and slight jerkiness of rotation.

A belt acts like a shock absorber between motor and platter. It removes the small residual vibration and cogging of the electric motor.

The actual power required to drive a turntable smoothly is very small. You only need a lot of torque and power if you require instant start and most spinners of vinyl do not.

Alastair Robertson-Aikman of SME is a brilliant engineer, and master of precision engineering. He would be perfectly capable of making a direct drive turntable, especially with his second to none machine shops at Steyning. However he and others have found they can get the best results from a precision machined belt driven turntable.

So the best numbers come from DC servo controlled DC motors driving a heavy platter rotating on superbly engineered bearings via a belt.

All parts of a turntable are vitally important. A good well engineered tone arm is absolutely essential to superb disc reproduction. They are also much more complex than meets the eye, as they are very challenging to engineer properly. Last but not least good cartridges are crucial. Like loudspeakers they are far and few between.

 

[3db]

Unless you are a DJ and need instant start a belt drive turntable is better, in terms of vibration, wow and flutter.

No electric motor turns perfectly smoothly and the types of servo feedback control motors required for direct drive turntables have small amounts of vibration and slight jerkiness of rotation.

A belt acts like a shock absorber between motor and platter. It removes the small residual vibration and cogging of the electric motor.

The actual power required to drive a turntable smoothly is very small. You only need a lot of torque and power if you require instant start and most spinners of vinyl do not.

Alastair Robertson-Aikman of SME is a brilliant engineer, and master of precision engineering. He would be perfectly capable of making a direct drive turntable, especially with his second to none machine shops at Steyning. However he and others have found they can get the best results from a precision machined belt driven turntable.

So the best numbers come from DC servo controlled DC motors driving a heavy platter rotating on superbly engineered bearings via a belt.

All parts of a turntable are vitally important. A good well engineered tone arm is absolutely essential to superb disc reproduction. They are also much more complex than meets the eye, as they are very challenging to engineer properly. Last but not least good cartridges are crucial. Like loudspeakers they are far and few between.

I agree. "Built like a tank" , "direct drive" does nothing for music resolution when you have a cumbersome tonearm tracking the grooves of a record.

 

[highfigh]

I've noticed a huge variation in SQ from one record to the next, which I believe to be the result of uneven LP recording and production standards. Steely Dan's "Aja" and Herbie Hancock's "Rockit" sound amazing, while Jefferson Airplane's "After Bathing at Baxters" sounds flat and tinny. Does anyone know more about why there is such a variance in record quality?

You answered your own last question- differences in recording and production standards cause various recordings to sound better or worse than others. Steely Dan were notorious for the amount of time they took to get the sound and instrumental parts right and generally, their sound quality was very good. Some other groups were a lot less worried about sound quality and back in the '70s/'80s, a lot of the fault falls on the shoulders of the producers, who often wasted record budget on drugs and "sonic experiments". The same differences can be heard on CDs and there are a lot of bad sounding recordings out there.

 

[3db]

You answered your own last question- differences in recording and production standards cause various recordings to sound better or worse than others. Steely Dan were notorious for the amount of time they took to get the sound and instrumental parts right and generally, their sound quality was very good. Some other groups were a lot less worried about sound quality and back in the '70s/'80s, a lot of the fault falls on the shoulders of the producers, who often wasted record budget on drugs and "sonic experiments". The same differences can be heard on CDs and there are a lot of bad sounding recordings out there.

I'll drink to that..ermm smoke one.. umm never mind!!

 

[Seth=L]

Unless you are a DJ and need instant start a belt drive turntable is better, in terms of vibration, wow and flutter.

No electric motor turns perfectly smoothly and the types of servo feedback control motors required for direct drive turntables have small amounts of vibration and slight jerkiness of rotation.

A belt acts like a shock absorber between motor and platter. It removes the small residual vibration and cogging of the electric motor.

The actual power required to drive a turntable smoothly is very small. You only need a lot of torque and power if you require instant start and most spinners of vinyl do not.

Alastair Robertson-Aikman of SME is a brilliant engineer, and master of precision engineering. He would be perfectly capable of making a direct drive turntable, especially with his second to none machine shops at Steyning. However he and others have found they can get the best results from a precision machined belt driven turntable.

So the best numbers come from DC servo controlled DC motors driving a heavy platter rotating on superbly engineered bearings via a belt.

All parts of a turntable are vitally important. A good well engineered tone arm is absolutely essential to superb disc reproduction. They are also much more complex than meets the eye, as they are very challenging to engineer properly. Last but not least good cartridges are crucial. Like loudspeakers they are far and few between.

Can you show any published specifications or third party measurements of wow and flutter on belt driven tables under $1000? Rega doesn't seem to specify other than that it is "low" and Project tables in the same price range as the SL-1200 (less than 0.01%) exibit more wow and flutter than Technics. I also noted that the Technics has a better SNR to a comparably priced ProJect table by over 10 dB.

I use the Technics as an example because it's widely known and quite familiar. Tonearms today are certainly improved over those from the 70's. This is why I suggest finding a state of the art direct drive system that allows the user to update the arm.

Please understand, I'm not saying these belt drive tables are bad or will sound bad. The level of prejudice against direct drive tables will always baffle me. When you look at the hard facts of what they can do I fail to understand why hardly anyone recognizes their capabilities for high fidelity playback.

Please don't throw in the "if they're so good, why don't they dominate the market?". The market was dry since the advent of CDs. The amount of research and development that went into many of these designs was extraordinary. Because many of those direct drive systems were mass manufactured they could afford a slim profit margin. If one of the large electronics conglomerates wanted to make an entirely new turntable that met the standards of those in the 70's it would cost significantly more than what they did in the 70's sans the inflation.

Look at the ProJect and Rega tables and tell me that you don't see the numbers adding up. Little DC motor, piece of laquer covered wood, a piece of round metal or glass, a rubber belt.... These parts aren't very costly to design nor manufacture/buy. The tonearms and cartridges are the most sophisticated parts on these turntables, and the only parts that have progressionally improved.

 

[3db]

Look at the ProJect and Rega tables and tell me that you don't see the numbers adding up. Little DC motor, piece of laquer covered wood, a piece of round metal or glass, a rubber belt.... These parts aren't very costly to design nor manufacture/buy. The tonearms and cartridges are the most sophisticated parts on these turntables, and the only parts that have progressionally improved.

Nothing like simple engineering to make something cost effective: like using rotational mass to keep a constant speed. The technics may have a lower SNR but its already inaudable on the ProJects and Rega's so where's the added benefit of that? When is the last time you through your turntable on the back of a pickup and took it out for a ride? If you're like most people, you don't move your turntable around. The built like a tank offers no sonic advantage. The tonearm is one of most influential aspects in a turntable's ability to resolve music and thats where the ProJects and Regas have it over the vintage tables.

 

[Seth=L]

Nothing like simple engineering to make something cost effective: like using rotational mass to keep a constant speed. The technics may have a lower SNR but its already inaudable on the ProJects and Rega's so where's the added benefit of that? When is the last time you through your turntable on the back of a pickup and took it out for a ride? If you're like most people, you don't move your turntable around. The built like a tank offers no sonic advantage. The tonearm is one of most influential aspects in a turntable's ability to resolve music and thats where the ProJects and Regas have it over the vintage tables.

-65 dB is what the ProJect table specified. That doesn't seem very low to me.

 

[3db]

-65 dB is what the ProJect table specified. That doesn't seem very low to me.

but if one can't hear it, does it matter?